Where in the world is Malaysia Airlines Flight 370?

What happened to Flight 370:

  • Crashed - Technical malfunction or human error

    Votes: 21 33.9%
  • Hijacked - Flight was taken over

    Votes: 30 48.4%
  • Landed in another country and is safe

    Votes: 11 17.7%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .

sdw

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<snip>
See post 75 and 76. You guys are talking about the same debunked theory. We might as well be talking about alien abduction theory. Both have the same validity.
The most important reason that the theory doesn't work is that the Transponder and most of ACARS was deliberately turned off 41 minutes into the flight. For another 13 minutes, the Co-Pilot was communicating with Air Traffic Control - then - all communication ceased and the aircraft made a 180 degree turn back over Malaysia and another two turns to head into the SouthEast Indian Ocean. Despite flying for another 5 hours, the aircraft made no communication of any type with the rest of the world.

There were numerous chances to attempt communication. Even if all of the communication systems built into the aircraft were rendered inoperative, attempts by Cellphone could have been made as the aircraft flew back over Malaysia. Moreover, it is known that all of the communication systems built into the aircraft were not inoperative because the aircraft kept answering pings from the satellite for at least 5 hours. Therefore, the lack of communication was deliberate on the part of someone.

Only the crew in the cockpit make any sense at all as being the person(s) who deliberately turned off the transponder, ACARS and the radios. Since Malaysia and various other investigators have determined that it is unlikely that a plot had been arranged in advance, it is most likely that some subterfuge was used to get the other crew members out of the cockpit by the person who took over the plane.
 
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HunkyBill

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Just the other day, Boeing responded and stated the Transponder's would not fail in the event of a "catastrophic failure".
There are so many theories going around but the fact that nobody knows what happened..not even circumstantially. However, investigators have disproven many theories including alien, blackhole, and fire aboard the plane.
 

sdw

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France has taken images with a satellite using microwave radar instead of optical technology and has found evidence of debris in the same area that the American and Chinese satellites have found evidence of debris.

I think the debris must be awash and that's why the observers in aircraft can't find it. It's going to take a surface ship in the right place to find the debris. HMAS Success is close to the area now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26705073
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malays...ges-studied-for-possible-jet-debris-1.2583254
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 

vancity_cowboy

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i thought radar was not capable of penetrating sea water

the radar reflectivity of a potential target is dependent on it's electrical conductivity, hence sea water, being an excellent electrical conductor (as are metals) will appear as a solid wall that reflects all radar pulses. the 'clutter' caused by a sea water surface can be reduced using horizontal polarization techniques, therefore allowing floating objects to be identified. but it will not 'penetrate' the water

for remote underwater sensing, sonar must be used, which is a sound wave that similarly reflects off high density objects; however, to create the sonar waves you require transponders in (actually under) the water surface

so the sequence of operations would be: 1) locate floating debris from the wreckage using optical and/or radar techniques, 2) place sonar transponders in the region of the floating wreckage, 3) investigate any sonar responses with deep (usually unmanned) submersibles
 

sdw

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i thought radar was not capable of penetrating sea water

the radar reflectivity of a potential target is dependent on it's electrical conductivity, hence sea water, being an excellent electrical conductor (as are metals) will appear as a solid wall that reflects all radar pulses. the 'clutter' caused by a sea water surface can be reduced using horizontal polarization techniques, therefore allowing floating objects to be identified. but it will not 'penetrate' the water

for remote underwater sensing, sonar must be used, which is a sound wave that similarly reflects off high density objects; however, to create the sonar waves you require transponders in (actually under) the water surface

so the sequence of operations would be: 1) locate floating debris from the wreckage using optical and/or radar techniques, 2) place sonar transponders in the region of the floating wreckage, 3) investigate any sonar responses with deep (usually unmanned) submersibles
Whether or not microwave penetrates the water surface and how deeply it penetrates the water surface is a function of the angle of the beam to the surface and the frequency of the beam.

There is a table of standard frequencies here on page 2 and a discussion of what task each band is better at on page 12
http://www.slideshare.net/yayavaram/introduction-to-microwavessatellite-commnradar-systemsmicrowaves

The French satellite is actually a joint French / Indian project and there is a lot of data on it's capabilities
http://www.isro.org/satellites/earthobservationsatellites.aspx
http://www.scanex.ru/en/publications/pdf/publication50.pdf
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/study/active_remote_sensing.html

There are also "passive microwave radar" systems that do not transmit pulses, they just listen very hard.
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/study/passive_remote_sensing.html

Nations that want to be able to detect Submarines by satellite do so quite successfully with satellites like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA-247

Asia Times has a piece on this here: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LE13Ad01.html

I don't know if any nation has moved high technology satellites into the area. The commercial satellite that the Australians used for their images is fairly old technology, the Chinese satellite is ancient technology (that's why the pixelization), the French / India jointly operated satellite is used for monitoring ice depth and ocean depth
 

vancity_cowboy

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Whether or not microwave penetrates the water surface and how deeply it penetrates the water surface is a function of the angle of the beam to the surface and the frequency of the beam.

There is a table of standard frequencies here on page 2 and a discussion of what task each band is better at on page 12
http://www.slideshare.net/yayavaram/introduction-to-microwavessatellite-commnradar-systemsmicrowaves

The French satellite is actually a joint French / Indian project and there is a lot of data on it's capabilities
http://www.isro.org/satellites/earthobservationsatellites.aspx
http://www.scanex.ru/en/publications/pdf/publication50.pdf
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/study/active_remote_sensing.html

There are also "passive microwave radar" systems that do not transmit pulses, they just listen very hard.
http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/study/passive_remote_sensing.html

Nations that want to be able to detect Submarines by satellite do so quite successfully with satellites like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA-247

Asia Times has a piece on this here: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LE13Ad01.html

I don't know if any nation has moved high technology satellites into the area. The commercial satellite that the Australians used for their images is fairly old technology, the Chinese satellite is ancient technology (that's why the pixelization), the French / India jointly operated satellite is used for monitoring ice depth and ocean depth
thanks for the links

i would comment that finding a moving submerged submarine by sensing disturbances on the surface of the sea would seem be a much more possible task than sensing broken pieces of aircraft fuselage at in excess of 7,000 feet of depth on the ocean bottom - using radar that is

also, although certain experimental satellites just might have the ability to sense beneath the ocean surface, using variations of radar, these would be advanced military applications, the owners of which would want to be very secretive about. likely they would NOT be sharing them with the world to locate an aircraft, the passengers of which are already dead

however, civilian satellites using various forms of newer 'radar' should be able to sense floating debris if they are 'looking' in the right area
 

vancity_cowboy

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This Wouldn't Be The First Time A Plane Mysteriously Disappeared Into The Indian Ocean
By Benjamin Zhang | Business Insider – Sat, 22 Mar, 2014 10:05 AM EDT

A South African Airways 747 crashed into the Indian Ocean in 1987, killing all 159 people on board.

As navies and media outlets from around the world converge on the Indian Ocean in search of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, some may recall another flight that ended tragically in the same waters.

On the evening of Nov. 27, 1987, the crew of South African Airways Flight 295 radioed air traffic control to alert them about smoke on the flight deck.

Flight 295, a Boeing 747-244B Combi, christened the Helderberg, was nine hours into a flight from Taipei to Johannesburg.

Just 19 minutes after the initial call, the aircraft plummeted into the dark waters of the Indian Ocean with 159 souls on board.

Nearly three decades after its demise, the challenges of the recovery and investigation of Flight 295 serve as a reminder of the difficulties facing those looking for Malaysia Flight 370. The search for the Boeing 777 has turned to the Indian Ocean, where Australian authorities have spotted objects that may be debris from the plane.

The Indian Ocean features some of the greatest depths on earth. In the case of the Helderberg, the wreckage came to a rest at a depth of more that 15,000 feet, or about three miles below the surface.

The only way for investigators to reach the debris field was by using remotely operated vehicles (ROVs), and even that proved to be an ordeal. To keep the ROVs connected to surface ships, investigators had an especially long cable custom-built so that it would be long enough to reach the ocean floor.

So it's no surprise a large portion of the aircraft's wreckage, including the flight data recorder, was never recovered. It took two years to find the cockpit voice recorder, 16,100 feet down.

Wreckage of South African Airways Flight 295 was found deep under the Indian Ocean.

The report on the crash, commissioned by the South African government, didn't offer an official cause, but suggested the aircraft either crashed into the ocean after the pilots became incapacitated by smoke, or that the tail of the plane collapsed because of structural failure caused by a fire.

Analysis of debris showed that a fire in the tail cargo compartment burned at more than 600 degrees Celsius (1,112 degrees Fahrenheit). The report did not give a specific cause of the fire, only suggesting an explosion cause by lithium batteries carried in the cargo compartment could not be ruled out.

According to a report by South African newspaper The Witness, Boeing investigator Fred Bereswill speculated that an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate — used in solid fuel rocket motors — was present.

In 1987, South Africa's Apartheid government was subject to economic sanctions, including embargoes on military munitions. Some have speculated the Helderberg was carrying a secret cargo of weapons for Armscor, the South African government's weapons firm, despite that the official crash report found no Armscor cargo on the plane's manifest.

We will never know what happened that night 27 years ago. If Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 did indeed crash into the Indian Ocean, then it too may well keep its secrets hidden in the depths.
http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-370-recalls-south-african-airways-flight-295-2014-3
 

sdw

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thanks for the links

i would comment that finding a moving submerged submarine by sensing disturbances on the surface of the sea would seem be a much more possible task than sensing broken pieces of aircraft fuselage at in excess of 7,000 feet of depth on the ocean bottom - using radar that is

also, although certain experimental satellites just might have the ability to sense beneath the ocean surface, using variations of radar, these would be advanced military applications, the owners of which would want to be very secretive about. likely they would NOT be sharing them with the world to locate an aircraft, the passengers of which are already dead

however, civilian satellites using various forms of newer 'radar' should be able to sense floating debris if they are 'looking' in the right area
Actually the French / India satellite would have a better chance of finding an aircraft within 50 M of the surface than it would of finding a submarine. This is because the Submarine has a "rubber" coating that is specifically designed to reduce the microwave return from an active satellite and to reduce microwave emissions going to a passive satellite.

The French / India satellite is in a polar orbit and passes over the Equator in India's longitude at 6AM every day. It images a 30km swath in one of 4 modes and images the entire globe each day. Since the satellite is actually for measuring ice and ocean depth, the data has to be looked at by an analyst to be able to extract any possible image of plane debris. Now that they (sort of) know where the debris is, they can look at that set of data each day and see if the debris is still there or has moved.

One of the two Chinese planes has located 2 large objects and numerous small white objects. The Chinese Ice Breaker is going to try and investigate before the storm hits the area.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26678492
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.cbc.ca/news

I hope that the objects prove to be from MH370, it will take a load off of the families to know that their family members are dead and where they died.

It looks like Australia may have done a bang up job of coordinating the search once they had the baton.

This morning Malaysia announced that MH370 crashed into the Southern India Ocean west of Perth, all of the occupants of the plane are assumed to be dead.

Chinese and Australian planes have found "objects" in the Ocean a bit East of where the satellite had them. The Chinese plane found "objects" as it came out of the search pattern and headed back to Perth and the Australian plane found "objects" as the flew to their assigned search pattern.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The announcement came the same day as Australian officials said they had spotted two objects in the southern Indian Ocean that could be related to the flight, which has been missing since March 8 with 239 people aboard.

One object is "a grey or green circular object," and the other is "an orange rectangular object," the Australian Maritime Safety Authority said.

The objects are the latest in a series of sightings, including "suspicious objects" reported earlier Monday by a Chinese military plane that was involved in search efforts in the same region, authorities said.

So far, nothing has been definitively linked to Flight 370.

Earlier, Hishammuddin Hussein, Malaysia's acting transportation minister, said only that "at the moment, there are new leads but nothing conclusive."

A reporter on board the Chinese plane for China's official Xinhua news agency said the search team saw "two relatively big floating objects with many white smaller ones scattered within a radius of several kilometers," the agency reported Monday.

The Chinese plane was flying at 33,000 feet on its way back to Australia's west coast when it made the sighting, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority said. . . .
Several ships are headed to the area and the USA has sent their "Black Box Finder" to Perth. The Black Box Finder is a towed passive array that can "hear" very faint "pings" from the Black Boxes even if they are in 20,000 feet of water.

Many links, all pretty much the same

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ne-ended-south-indian-ocean/story?id=23033246
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26716572
http://www.cbc.ca/news
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malays...ed-in-southern-indian-ocean-pm-says-1.2584000
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 
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sdw

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Malaysia has announced that MH370 crashed into the Southern Indian Ocean and all aboard are dead.
 

sdw

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Here's a piece on how faint "pings" can be used to find a plane.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-malaysia-airlines-inmarsat-pings-idUSBREA2N1OJ20140324

The company and the UK had tried to tell Malaysia where to look for at least a week, but wasn't until a number of satellites were able to get glimpses of "objects" that Malaysia could accept the plane had crashed.

HMAS Success is now at the scene waiting for the weather to improve enough to recover some of the debris. The Chinese Ice Breaker Snow Dragon and 11 other Chinese ships are close by. So, once conditions permit, the media should be reporting on what debris has been found.

The Australian Destroyer that will be towing the "Black Box Finder" won't be in the area for 4 days or so. So, it'll be a week before the black boxes are located.

I hope the debris is from MH370. It would be terrible for the families if none of the debris that is recovered is from the plane.
 

sdw

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bcneil

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Now they are searching 1100km away from where they have been.
 

girth-brooks

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Well, at least 5 or 6 of the planes searching spotted debris. It appears much calmer where they are searching today

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26786549
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/28/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
I am not sure how they are going to do this search in a successful way. Let's face it, there is probably all kinds of debris in the water from anything. It's a needle in a hay stack at this point, and it may never be solved.
 

sdw

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I am not sure how they are going to do this search in a successful way. Let's face it, there is probably all kinds of debris in the water from anything. It's a needle in a hay stack at this point, and it may never be solved.
That's why one of the Chinese ships is going to pick up the debris tomorrow. If they can find it of course. The only way to know if it comes from the plane is to have a ship pick it up.

Once they have picked up a piece that belongs to the plane, they can better model a probable crash site and begin to look for the black boxes. One guy put it "right now, we are still trying to define where the haystack is"

in this Reuters video, they show some of the objects http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/0...missing?videoId=299870017&videoChannel=117760

Well this morning the ships have recovered debris, but it doesn't sound like any of it is from MH370
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/29/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26797866
 
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