What's the deal with China these days? Are they such a belligerent nation?

[tokugawa]

Philippines urges China to explain stranded frigate

The Philippine government has asked China to explain how one of its naval vessels ran aground within what Manila says are its territorial waters.

The frigate struck Half Moon Shoal, 110km (70 miles) from western Palawan province, late on Wednesday.

Several areas in the South China Sea are disputed by a number of nations.

However, China, which said the ship was carrying out a patrol when it became stranded, claims the entire sea as its historical territory.

Offer of help

A Philippine military aircraft has confirmed the presence of the frigate, along with a number of other vessels presumed to be taking part in a rescue operation.

Regional military spokesman Col Neil Anthony Estrella told Agence France-Presse: "During the aerial reconnaissance mission, they were able to confirm, based on photographs, that there is indeed a ship with bow number 560 aground at Half Moon Shoal."

Col Estrella said the frigate was 60 nautical miles from Palawan, well within the 200-nautical-mile exclusive zone recognised by international law.

Philippine foreign affairs spokesman Raul Hernandez said Manila's embassy in Beijing had been told to offer China help in extricating the stricken vessel.

"We need to find out what really happened with the Chinese frigate in our territory," Mr Hernandez said.

China's foreign ministry confirmed the ship had run aground during a patrol and said no-one had been hurt. It said a recovery operation was under way.

China and the Philippines have been involved in tense offshore exchanges this year.

There was a month-long stand-off at another disputed area, Scarborough Shoal, 710km north of Half Moon, with Manila accusing Chinese fishermen of poaching.

Original BBC Article: Philippines urges China to explain stranded frigate

Wow what arrogance! It's one thing to claim historical territorial lands like Tibet (though I disagree on that as well) but WTF is one of your frigates doing 110km within Philippines - that is well within the 200-nautical mile exclusive zone recognized by international law? In what reality in the 21st century can a nation claim so much territory?

 

[vancity_cowboy]

belligerent... not so much

arrogant... definitely

 

[synaptik]

Wow what arrogance! It's one thing to claim historical territorial lands like Tibet (though I disagree on that as well) but WTF is one of your frigates doing 110km within Philippines - that is well within the 200-nautical mile exclusive zone recognized by international law? In what reality in the 21st century can a nation claim so much territory?

the 200 mile exclusive zone applies to the waters surrounding territories (land masses) and the issue is that china claims these island chains as their own, based on historical ownership (they're the only ones who can produce evidence of first exploration, first occupation of the shoals). phillipines claim to these are based on promixity to their mainland. both sides believe their own parameters is the correct one.

also worth of note is that the whole area is also claimed by vietnam, indonesia, malaysia and the like, but their claimed territory lines arent illustrated. in fact, all of their claims extend a lot more than the illustrated 200 nautical miles. why do these nations do this? not due to belligerence, but because international claims are based on "if you dont claim it, you lose it" and that area is full of explorable resources.

its just politics, and its easy to pick on china because they're the big bad these days, especially with the election and obama shifting focus to the pacific. and of course the western media sides with philippines, an english speaking country and an american ally.

 

[mercyshooter]

if history says those are the land of china, then china has done nothing wrong. otherwise, like vancity_cowboy says, "arrogant... definitely".

 

[mik]

McKay will fly in by helicopter to resolve this. Or for a photo-op.

 

[tokugawa]

Problem with historical claims is that the entire map of the world would have to be redrawn. How far do you go back in history? Certain nations would be wiped off the face of the earth. In the case of China how far are they going back in history? They might as well lay claim to North America as supposedly they arrived here 60 years before Columbus during the Ming Dynasty. I just have a hard time seeing a Chinese claim going as far the borders of Malaysia and Brunei. That's kind a pushing it.

 

[mercyshooter]

Problem with historical claims is that the entire map of the world would have to be redrawn. How far do you go back in history? Certain nations would be wiped off the face of the earth. In the case of China how far are they going back in history? They might as well lay claim to North America as supposedly they arrived here 60 years before Columbus during the Ming Dynasty. I just have a hard time seeing a Chinese claim going as far the borders of Malaysia and Brunei. That's kind a pushing it.

I guess it depends on who declares it first.

 

[tokugawa]

I guess it depends on who declares it first.

If only you could do that with women.....Heidi Klum would be my claim

 

[MissingOne]

There are somewhat similar competing claims in what we think of as the Canadian Arctic. It's going to be a big and difficult issue for Canada in the coming years, as the Arctic Ocean opens to navigation and resource extraction. I fear that we will lose a lot of what we now think of as "our" Arctic territory, because we don't pay much attention to it and we're unwilling to spend much money to occupy or defend it.

 

[The Lizard King]

He's a fucking tool but it would be safer than driving over there.

 

[Tugela]

Wow what arrogance! It's one thing to claim historical territorial lands like Tibet (though I disagree on that as well) but WTF is one of your frigates doing 110km within Philippines - that is well within the 200-nautical mile exclusive zone recognized by international law? In what reality in the 21st century can a nation claim so much territory?

They think it's theirs because some European called it the "South China Sea".

 

[Tugela]

the 200 mile exclusive zone applies to the waters surrounding territories (land masses) and the issue is that china claims these island chains as their own, based on historical ownership (they're the only ones who can produce evidence of first exploration, first occupation of the shoals). phillipines claim to these are based on promixity to their mainland. both sides believe their own parameters is the correct one.

also worth of note is that the whole area is also claimed by vietnam, indonesia, malaysia and the like, but their claimed territory lines arent illustrated. in fact, all of their claims extend a lot more than the illustrated 200 nautical miles. why do these nations do this? not due to belligerence, but because international claims are based on "if you dont claim it, you lose it" and that area is full of explorable resources.

its just politics, and its easy to pick on china because they're the big bad these days, especially with the election and obama shifting focus to the pacific. and of course the western media sides with philippines, an english speaking country and an american ally.

Ownership is only valid if you historically occupied the land, which they did not, because its a bunch of rocks. So what if some Chinese ship happened to encounter them. I'm sure just as many ships from neighboring countries also encountered them.

The claim to Tibet is bogus. It doesn't matter if at some point in history they exerted control over the area, what matters is who lives there now and if they consider themselves part of China. Tibet was independent prior to being occupied and I'm sure that the locals don't see themselves as Chinese. In the past the Tibetan empire occupied large parts of China, should we on that basis say that China really belongs to Tibet? The Chinese would take issue with that, even though it is the exact same logic they are using themselves.

 

[tokugawa]

They think it's theirs because some European called it the "South China Sea".

Now that's funny! But then again that might be seriously true!

 

[wilde]

This will seem like child's play once the Artic opens up...

 

[Tugela]

China tries to solve these diplomatically rather than using military, except for the tibet issue.

Yup. Gunboat diplomacy.

Taiwan also has to be on a constant state of readiness due to the threat of invasion. Plus, they have been largely isolated in the world due to China's bullyboy tactics. Yup, a good decent world power, thats for sure.

China would have bases in other countries as well, that is, if they actually had any real allies that is. Which they don't. At least, none that would put up with their presence. Even their nominal allies don't trust them.

 

[Tugela]

Taiwan is a sovereign nation. The government there is actually the original government of China until forced off the mainland by the communists. They never ceded power, so in theory they are still the government of China. Other countries recognize the mainland government mostly because it is more powerfull. it is the bullying and threats by the mainland that got them recognition. It is the same situation as Afghanistan before 911. The taliban had control of most of the country, except for areas in the north held by remnants of the previous state. They didn't get recognition though, because Afghanistan has no real significance to other countries. After 911 that changed and they got forced out.

Don't think for one minute that China is a big benefactor in Africa. They have a lot of influence there now because they backed former rebel movements that are now in power. Now they supposedly invest, but what they are really doing is raping and pillaging the continents natural resources, just like the colonial powers did. The locals get very little from that so called investment, other than to be stripped of their natural wealth. The businessmen are welcomed as benefactors by the corrupt elite in those countries because, surprise, a little grease gets you friends in high places. Trust me though, the little people do NOT see the chinese as any different from the Europeans and it is only a matter of time before they do something about it with clubs and tires. The only people getting rich, and all the good jobs, are the businessmen and their cronies. Sooner or later most of those client countries are going to have riots and revolts that target the foreigner, and it isnt going to be the European this time.

If you think China is not threatening, why dont you ask pretty much every neighbor they have, except the Kingdom of North Korea (which is not exactly a shining light of truth and justice).