Carman Fox

What happens with gun laws: Windsor vs Detroit

vancity_cowboy

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Jan 27, 2008
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it's been said many times but i'll say it again:

you can place a loaded revolver with the hammer cocked on a table in the middle of the room full of people and at the end of the night nobody will have been killed - unless of course a human hand picks the gun up, aims it and pulls the trigger, then somebody will very likely be killed

in reading articles like that you have to look at other social factors, not at the firearm laws

imho that article is yellow journalism at its worst
 
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Stew

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Jan 3, 2004
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Then again, if people are not permitted to put such revolvers on the table, one does not have to worry about social factors as much. Much safer for those sitting at that table when someone has a social factor problem that causes them to act out.


it's been said many times but i'll say it again:

you can place a loaded revolver with the hammer cocked on a table in the middle of the room full of people and at the end of the night nobody will have been killed - unless of course a human hand picks the gun up, aims it and pulls the trigger, then somebody will very likely be killed

in reading articles like that you have to look at other social factors, not at the firearm laws

imho that article is yellow journalism at its worst
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
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Then again, if people are not permitted to put such revolvers on the table, one does not have to worry about social factors as much. Much safer for those sitting at that table when someone has a social factor problem that causes them to act out.
that's pure bullshit. if somebody takes a fit of rage and wants to kill somebody, they'll do it with a knife, a car, a chair, a rock or their hands

it is ALL about social factors
 

violetblake

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Jul 24, 2011
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I'm not sure that Windsor and Detroit are the best comparisons. Even though two cities can be right next to each other, if they are operated differently they can end up being very different places. So vancity_cowboy, you are right in that there are many more factors to the safety of a city than whether or not guns are legal. That being said, from all evidence we can see, that does still seem to make a difference. A better comparison might be Winnipeg and Detroit, being that they're about the same size, both have gang problems, both have dropped overall violence around 10% in recent years, but still both remain very violent. The major difference though, is that from the article the OP posted, there's about a murder a day in Detroit, while in Winnipeg it's around 30 a year (sometimes more, sometimes less). There's a ton of stabbings in Wpg though! And logistically speaking, you have a better chance of surviving a stab wound than a gunshot wound. So from what I can tell from googling crime stats on the two cities, it appears as though there is very similar violence rates, but a big difference in homicide rates. I think a logical conclusion is that guns have a lot to do with this. vancity_cowboy, you said social factors play into crime stats, while cannot the major presence of guns in a society be considered a social factor? In any case, don't take too much of what I said exactly literally, as it's hard to find accurate data on a google search, but at least it gives you an idea.
 

jesuschrist

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Aug 26, 2007
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it's been said many times but i'll say it again:

you can place a loaded revolver with the hammer cocked on a table in the middle of the room full of people and at the end of the night nobody will have been killed - unless of course a human hand picks the gun up, aims it and pulls the trigger, then somebody will very likely be killed

in reading articles like that you have to look at other social factors, not at the firearm laws

imho that article is yellow journalism at its worst
Common sense requires a lot more than just logic.
 

vancity_cowboy

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Jan 27, 2008
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let's try another comparison:

detroit
population 713,777
murders 323
murder rate 45.3/100,000

seattle
population 608,660
murders 30
murder rate 4.9/100,000

those are two cities of similar size but governed by the same constitution, one amendment of which permits its citizens to carry arms

these stats are taken from various sources and relate to different years during the last decade (2000-2009), my apologies for not doing a more rigorous treatment of the data, but as you say, '...google search...' so why the difference? i say it is due to social factors not related to gun ownership

vancouver's murder rate during the worst year of that decade was 6.3/100,000

mark twain once said, 'there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics...'

i still maintain that article is yellow journalism at its worst
 

threepeat

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Sep 20, 2004
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Edmonton is the murder capital of Canada, and we have less than an eighth of the murder rate of Detroit.

IMHO the problem with the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument is that it ignores that having the means to kill someone plays a pretty big part with whether or not a person will do it.

You could say "an oven doesn't cook food, people cook food" and think about how ridiculous that sounds. Try cooking food without an oven then. If guns weren't a critical component in killing, they would not have been invented.

I agree that societal factors obviously play a part as well. Why does Edmonton have such a high murder rate compared to Calgary? My theory is that we are the nearest big city to the oil fields, where there is lots of money and lots of testosterone.
 

jesuschrist

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let's try another comparison:

detroit
population 713,777
murders 323
murder rate 45.3/100,000

seattle
population 608,660
murders 30
murder rate 4.9/100,000

those are two cities of similar size but governed by the same constitution, one amendment of which permits its citizens to carry arms

these stats are taken from various sources and relate to different years during the last decade (2000-2009), my apologies for not doing a more rigorous treatment of the data, but as you say, '...google search...' so why the difference? i say it is due to social factors not related to gun ownership

vancouver's murder rate during the worst year of that decade was 6.3/100,000

mark twain once said, 'there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics...'

i still maintain that article is yellow journalism at its worst
Oh okay then, it's not guns. It must be something else....

Cars!!! Detroit is the land of Cars! Seattle can't possibly have as many cars as Detroit!

But wait, the argument goes:

It's not cars that kill people, its people.

Damn it, your logic is so water tight we could never find a reason for anything.

And since it's always just people who murder people, the solution to murder is readily at hand: let's just get rid of the source of the problem - people. Kill 'em all. End of crime. Done.
 

Ned Flanders

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May 19, 2004
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Here is another damned lie or statistic. In the US, if you have a handgun at home it is 30-40 times more likely to be used accidentally, or in a domestic or other dispute than on an unknown intruder in your home. The common argument for ready access to firearms is that they are safe in the hands of legal owners, who are all sane and responsible people. Let's rethink the second part of the previous sentence.
 

jesuschrist

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Aug 26, 2007
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The common argument for ready access to firearms is that they are safe in the hands of legal owners, who are all sane and responsible people. Let's rethink the second part of the previous sentence.
But murder is insane.
Chicken, egg, chicken, egg, chicken, egg.....
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
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Calgary
2 countries with 2 completely different sets of gun laws.....and the gun laws in the USA are pretty crazy...aside from being allowed to have fully automatic weapons such as an AR-15 or an Uzi the ability to carry a handgun legally is nuts....then you also have some states that allow CWP's which is a Concealed Weapon Permit....the only people legally allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Canada are plain clothes police detectives and the PM's protective detail....whereas any nutbar in the state of Texas might be packing a concealed weapon...which potetially could be a micro Uzi....pretty scary I think.

SR
 

Karl Blues

New member
Oct 13, 2004
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Vancouver
Oh okay then, it's not guns. It must be something else....

Cars!!! Detroit is the land of Cars! Seattle can't possibly have as many cars as Detroit!

But wait, the argument goes:

It's not cars that kill people, its people.

Damn it, your logic is so water tight we could never find a reason for anything.

And since it's always just people who murder people, the solution to murder is readily at hand: let's just get rid of the source of the problem - people. Kill 'em all. End of crime. Done.
And nuclear bombs don't kill people, people kill people. Why stop at guns?
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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let's try another comparison:

detroit
population 713,777
murders 323
murder rate 45.3/100,000

seattle
population 608,660
murders 30
murder rate 4.9/100,000

those are two cities of similar size but governed by the same constitution, one amendment of which permits its citizens to carry arms

these stats are taken from various sources and relate to different years during the last decade (2000-2009), my apologies for not doing a more rigorous treatment of the data, but as you say, '...google search...' so why the difference? i say it is due to social factors not related to gun ownership

vancouver's murder rate during the worst year of that decade was 6.3/100,000

mark twain once said, 'there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics...'

i still maintain that article is yellow journalism at its worst
You are right. My degree is in Math/stats.

Stats can fool so many people. Comparing Windsor and Detroit. Making claims that crime rates and murder rates variances between cities, is due to gun ownership........ statistically doesn't hold any water. There are simply too many other important differences between these cities. To be able to get any useful data on a single variable.

Cities being close to each other really means nothing. Why does Detroit have more murders than Windsor per capita???
Well I'd list poverty, unemployment, ghettos, drug enforcement policy, even the schools. As reasons before gun ownership.
Is some of the huge gap in murder rates caused by guns......?? Sure probably some, but certainly not all or most.

Compton has more murder than Beverly Hills.........is it because less people in Beverly Hills own guns???
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
5,491
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38
on yer ignore list
You are right. My degree is in Math/stats.

Stats can fool so many people. Comparing Windsor and Detroit. Making claims that crime rates and murder rates variances between cities, is due to gun ownership........ statistically doesn't hold any water. There are simply too many other important differences between these cities. To be able to get any useful data on a single variable.

Cities being close to each other really means nothing. Why does Detroit have more murders than Windsor per capita???
Well I'd list poverty, unemployment, ghettos, drug enforcement policy, even the schools. As reasons before gun ownership.
Is some of the huge gap in murder rates caused by guns......?? Sure probably some, but certainly not all or most.

Compton has more murder than Beverly Hills.........is it because less people in Beverly Hills own guns???
YES! finally, some sense... :clap2:
 
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