What can be done about the Mexico drug wars

[Unpossible]

Not only do hard drug users have trouble controlling themselves, these drugs makes people addicted faster

Source please.

they turn far more normal people who experiment with drugs into hard drug users.

Hard drugs turn people into hard drug users!? I'm fucking shocked!!

The solution is to lock the female dog away, if the female dog is the addictive substance, and to shoot the owner of the female dog for being irresponsible in leaving it out.

But male dogs will just start fucking cats and then you'll have to start punishing cat owners.

 

[Devo]

People advocate the solution to legalize it, saying it's as simple as that.
Well if it is a simple solution, then analyzing that solution should be simple too. The reasoning goes something like this: if it is legal, you take away the context of other illegal activity that makes the trade of it dangerous and at the same time profiting from its regulation and sale. The analysis of the reasoning? I contend that those advocating the solution barely analyze that reasoning. Instead they go ad-hominem saying that opponents are backward, not open minded, biased, prejudiced, etc.

What is missing in the reasoning behind legality is the nature of the contraband itself. It is NOT like alcohol or tobacco. It has extreme consequences to mental and physical health, and those consequences are immediate. They are extremely addictive, much more so than alcohol or tobacco. Comparisons such as, "viagra has more side-effects than marijuana" are silly.

These highly dangerous to health, mental health, and highly addictive substances could destroy society if use becomes more widespread. There is a limit to liberalization of rights to hurt oneself as one chooses. A significant number of citizens are incapable of responsible action in the face of vices. These people need to be controlled, and the way to control them vis-a-vis drugs is to keep them from ever having it. You forget that citizens also includes minors. Exposure to these substances at an early age, due to their widespread access, is disastrous.

Indonesia virtually puts to death everyone trafficking in drugs, including marijuana. While this is far extreme, the reason is that they cite the proximity of the availability of drug plants in South-East Asia, the push by some Australian citizens to profit from selling drugs, and that European societies lose entire generations to drugs. Indonesians do not want a waste-land of its citizens lost to drug addiction. As a consequence, their country is cleaner and more peaceful than vice-ridden Thailand, freer of sex and drug exploitation by foreigners. They hope to be an economic powerhouse like Singapore and Malaysia, whose drug laws are nearly as extreme.

Excellent post! Society already has enough problems with alcohol and tobacco without legally promoting a proven gateway drug such as marijuana consequently making it much easier to obtain, especially to minors.

In closing I will add that those who are so cavalier about legalizing drugs have never experienced first hand the severe consequences of drug use to ones friends and family.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

FIVE EASY STEPS - Legalize, Regulate, Tax, Educate and offer Treatment to those who develop addictions they can't control.

The Taxes collected would be used to regulate, educate and run treatment programs.

The world will not fall apart if drugs are legalized nor will we all become junkies. As for the cartels and criminals who profit now they will just move back to their traditional rackets.

Prostitution should also be legalized as the laws only harm and rarely help.

 

[Devo]

You shut your fucking mouth!!

Textbook example of what drugs do to people.

 

[Unpossible]

Textbook example of what drugs do to people.

You still haven't linked to this magical textbook. Go ahead...I dare you.

Last edited by PeaceGuy; Today at 08:05 PM. Reason: add "small" additional comment / qualifier after Unpossible's post

My post had to do with Devo's outright trolling. I have dealt with people with addictions. I bet dollars to donuts Devo has not.

Couldn't agree with you more. Drugs are for people that can't face and live with reality, sad really ...

So you've never taken a drink then?

 

[karma7728]

I have been a member here for quite a while just to browse as many of my friends work in the industry here in Vancouver. Usually I don't want to chime in on Perb discussions, but I feel like I need to say something about this topic.

I just arrived back in Vancouver from living in Mexico for 4 months. I was living in North Central Mexico (No, not beach resorts) after wanting to explore new options and wanting to spend time with some long time family friends I have had since childhood.

All I can say is what we hear in the news here in Canada isn't doesn't even cover a fraction of what is going on down there. I don't think many people realize that there truly is a WAR going on down there. In the last 4 months I have heard my first gunshots, been accosted by "narcos" in nightclubs, been extorted by the police and been robbed. I was in Monterrey the same week as the Casino Royale incident and I experienced the pain and hopelessness that my friends feel every day when they wake up to hanging cadavers, mass shootings and piles of dead bodies. What has always drawn me to Mexico - the lively culture, and the kindness of the people is still there. However, it seems as if it is dampened by a constant fear of what is to come. People in Mexico really do live in fear. I don't know what the answer to the problem is, but I definitely think BOTH sides (suppliers and consumers) are to blame. The solution is not easy and we definitely wont find it here on PERB. But after experiencing it for myself, I know that it feels so different there. People really are losing hope as this war is affecting every aspect of day to day life for ALL Mexicans. Everybody down there is affected in some way. It truly is a different place and it has gotten so much worse in the last year. As a young woman I have always known to keep my guard up. But this trip was so different. But I think we all agree the solution is far from tomorrow.

Anyways, my story is kind of pointless but all I can say is I hope things get better down there. I am tired of watching my friends suffer and I really feel like sooner or later I am going to lose somebody in this war.

 

[hipdude]

I have been a member here for quite a while just to browse as many of my friends work in the industry here in Vancouver. Usually I don't want to chime in on Perb discussions, but I feel like I need to say something about this topic.

I just arrived back in Vancouver from living in Mexico for 4 months. I was living in North Central Mexico (No, not beach resorts) after wanting to explore new options and wanting to spend time with some long time family friends I have had since childhood.

All I can say is what we hear in the news here in Canada isn't doesn't even cover a fraction of what is going on down there. I don't think many people realize that there truly is a WAR going on down there. In the last 4 months I have heard my first gunshots, been accosted by "narcos" in nightclubs, been extorted by the police and been robbed. I was in Monterrey the same week as the Casino Royale incident and I experienced the pain and hopelessness that my friends feel every day when they wake up to hanging cadavers, mass shootings and piles of dead bodies. What has always drawn me to Mexico - the lively culture, and the kindness of the people is still there. However, it seems as if it is dampened by a constant fear of what is to come. People in Mexico really do live in fear. I don't know what the answer to the problem is, but I definitely think BOTH sides (suppliers and consumers) are to blame. The solution is not easy and we definitely wont find it here on PERB. But after experiencing it for myself, I know that it feels so different there. People really are losing hope as this war is affecting every aspect of day to day life for ALL Mexicans. Everybody down there is affected in some way. It truly is a different place and it has gotten so much worse in the last year. As a young woman I have always known to keep my guard up. But this trip was so different. But I think we all agree the solution is far from tomorrow.

Anyways, my story is kind of pointless but all I can say is I hope things get better down there. I am tired of watching my friends suffer and I really feel like sooner or later I am going to lose somebody in this war.

I'm glad you posted this. I really think their country is in great peril. This will affect other countries in Latin America, and the trouble will also migrate northward into the US and maybe even Canada.

Here is a website (unfortunately its in Spanish) that catalogs the crimes in Mexico by these criminal gangs. Be careful what you watch, there is some really really really horrific stuff in there. You're all warned.

http://www.blogdelnarco.com/

 

[hipdude]

Banning things does not work well and the side effects kill people, diverts limited tax dollars into police / corrections make-work projects and make criminals rich.

What is the core problems caused by the drug trade? Competing suppliers of illegal substances violently fight over lucrative markets and the routes by which their product is smuggled to that market. People who chose to use drugs experience health risks, job loss and adverse impacts on their social and family life.

Deal with the the issues that cause people to choose to use drugs. Deal with the addiction issues of people that are using drugs. Throwing their ass in jail does not cure their addictions. The social ills that are a root cause for many of the poor, the mentally ill & the disenfranchised people to choose drugs remain, creating generation after generation of addicts. Break that cycle & the demand is reduced. Reduce the demand & the market is smaller.

Supply hard drug addicts with clean supplies & uncontaminated drugs of known purity or with substitutes (e.g. methadone treatment). Reducing the heath impacts of their drug use reduces costs to our healthcare system for treating overdoses, Hepatitis, HIV, etc. Supplying the drugs reduces the petty crime of unemployed addicts raising the cash to feed their habit though illegal suppliers.

Supplying addicts with their drugs reduces the demand for illegal drugs. Reduce the demand & the market is smaller still.

As the market shrinks, the big money drug trade goes away. There will always be a small trade, just like there are still people who smuggle cases of cigarettes & bootleg liquor. And you deal with drug smugglers like you deal with the other types of smugglers. There will always be folks growing pot & cooking meth or acid or other drugs for sale just like there are people who still moonshine.

The whole objective should be to help people lead better, healthier lives, not just to punish the "evil doers". One way drives down costs by solving problems. The other spends money putting people in expensive storage for a while then letting them loose again, largely unchanged. I prefer to pay less and help people.

Thanks for the thoughtful post on the matter.
I think you make very good points. Dealing with the root causes of drug addiction is a noble pursuit, but I think this works best in theory. In practice, it should not be the primary solution but instead an adjunct to very hard and fast laws about drug trafficking. Legalizing it could diminish the more caustic effects of the drug trade. But you still have to deal with those you don't catch in your net of preventative measures for drug addiction: there will always be those who resort to it, or fall prey to it. Legalizing it gives them more access, bringing in more victims who otherwise would not have been if drugs did not exist, whereas very harshly punishing those who traffic in it should kill almost all access and reduce the number of victims to only those whose main goal is to seek and be consumers of hard drugs.

In Canada we have harsh laws with regard to gun control. Opponents say guns don't kill people, people kill people. But if access to guns were relaxed, we'd have more guns, and more people would find themselves using them for criminal reasons than would otherwise. If you understand and agree with those are proponents for gun control, then surely you can use a similar reasoning for controlling the drug trade.

 

[doctorkoma]

Vincente Fox actually suggests a world wide legalization of all illegal drugs. I have always believed that is the only solution.

 

[Devo]

This discussion has reminded me how thankful I am that we have a majority Conservative government. Look for Mr Harper to introduce aggressive anti drug legislation in his next 8 years as majority PM.

 

[TooLegit]

The problem of drug addiction has been studied extensively for nearly 100 years now.

1920: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Prohibition instituted.
1930: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Federal Bureau of Narcotics created.
1933: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Prohibition ends.
1971: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. War on Drugs begins.
2010: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Trillions spent on War on Drugs.
2011: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. "THE WAR ON DRUGS HAS FAILED" say a self-appointed 19-member commission including former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, Mexico's former President Ernesto Zedillo, Brazil's ex-President Fernando Henrique Cardoso and former Colombian President Cesar Gaviria, as well as the former US Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker and the current Prime Minister of Greece George Papandreou. The panel also features prominent Latin American writers Carlos Fuentes and Mario Vargas Llosa, the EU's former foreign policy chief Javier Solana, and George Schultz, a former US secretary of state.

It seems to me(and many others), that regardless of the legality of drugs a small portion of the population is simply predisposed to drug addiction. There is nothing to imply that legalizing drugs would increase or decrease that percentage. However, making them illegal has proven to escalate violence for a number of reasons.

Also, many of the problems reported with illegal substance abuse could very easily be remedied with legalization. Criminal drug producers are well known for 'cutting' their product with harmful, but cheap, chemicals. Legal drugs would most often be created in labs, by corporate entities, where regulations would make them safer(not safe).

Telling proponents of legalization that they are naive is simply ignorant. Substance abuse has been studied extensively. The countries that have legalized most drugs are now doing significantly better, thanks to a shift away from enforcement and towards treatment. Imagine what things would be like if the money spent on the War on Drugs was instead spent on education and addiction research...

 

[whoisjohngalt]

The problem of drug addiction has been studied extensively for nearly 100 years now.

1920: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Prohibition instituted.
1930: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Federal Bureau of Narcotics created.
1933: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Prohibition ends.
1971: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. War on Drugs begins.
2010: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Trillions spent on War on Drugs.
2011: 2.2% of the population addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. "THE WAR ON DRUGS HAS FAILED" say a self-appointed 19-member commission including former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, Mexico's former President Ernesto Zedillo, Brazil's ex-President Fernando Henrique Cardoso and former Colombian President Cesar Gaviria, as well as the former US Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker and the current Prime Minister of Greece George Papandreou. The panel also features prominent Latin American writers Carlos Fuentes and Mario Vargas Llosa, the EU's former foreign policy chief Javier Solana, and George Schultz, a former US secretary of state.

It seems to me(and many others), that regardless of the legality of drugs a small portion of the population is simply predisposed to drug addiction. There is nothing to imply that legalizing drugs would increase or decrease that percentage. However, making them illegal has proven to escalate violence for a number of reasons.

Also, many of the problems reported with illegal substance abuse could very easily be remedied with legalization. Criminal drug producers are well known for 'cutting' their product with harmful, but cheap, chemicals. Legal drugs would most often be created in labs, by corporate entities, where regulations would make them safer(not safe).

Telling proponents of legalization that they are naive is simply ignorant. Substance abuse has been studied extensively. The countries that have legalized most drugs are now doing significantly better, thanks to a shift away from enforcement and towards treatment. Imagine what things would be like if the money spent on the War on Drugs was instead spent on education and addiction research...

Thank you for injecting some intelligence into this debate. You have said pretty much everything I was going to say in response to the prohibitionists.

 

[HankQuinlan]

Excellent post! Society already has enough problems with alcohol and tobacco without legally promoting a proven gateway drug such as marijuana consequently making it much easier to obtain, especially to minors.

In closing I will add that those who are so cavalier about legalizing drugs have never experienced first hand the severe consequences of drug use to ones friends and family.

I just don't understand you commie/liberal/socialist pinkos that want a nanny state controlling your every move, with bureaucrats deciding what substances you should or shouldn't take.

 

[TooLegit]

First, Marijuana as a "proven gateway drug" is a ridiculous statement. There is no proof of any such thing. It may be true that most drug addicts started with marjuana, but it was their propensity for addiction that caused escalation to other drugs. The vast majority of marijuana users never escalate.

Secondly, the gap between upper class and lower class addicts is the best evidence for legalization. Upper class addicts can afford higher quality drugs and thus have far fewer negative side effects. They are most often perfectly capable of being productive members of society even when in the grips of addiction. Lower class addicts tend to buy cheaper drugs that are 'cut' with innappropriate chemicals. It is those chemicals, not the drugs themselves, that cause the vast majority of the mental problems they experience. With legalization, the cost of high quality drugs would be reduced drastically and it would no longer be profitable for illegal drug manufacturers to stay in business.

Thirdly, I believe that education is the key. The more you educate people on the dangers of drug abuse, the less likely they are to become addicts. This has proven time and time again. Not long ago, a significant portion of the population smoked tobacco. Education about the dangers of smoking became widespread and mainstream and now the percentage of smokers has dropped drastically.

In closing I will add that those who are so cavalier about legalizing drugs have never experienced first hand the severe consequences of drug use to ones friends and family.

I have a brother that has been severely affected by his addiction to drugs and alcohol. It has led to years of legal problems, as well as estrangement from our family. The vast majority of these problems are caused by the illegal nature of those drugs. Illegal drugs are expensive and he is poor. This led to theft from friends and family to support his drug habit. It also led to burglaries and shoplifting, which led to several years in prison. If drugs were legalized, there would have been far better options.

I think what the opponents of legalization fail to realize is that addicts are not going to stop. Legal or illegal, they are going to be addicts and will what they deem necessary to get those drugs. When those drugs are illegal, they will break the law and often hurt people to get what they feel they need. How often do you hear about people mugging, robbing or killing people for alcohol?

 

[Aleister Crowley]

The Cartels have been in Mexico for centuries.
The problem really escalated when Calderon started shuffling the deck and altering the agreements that they had with one another.
When Calderon is gone and that will be soon....All my Mexican friends tell me that the new Pres will let it go back to the old way and the fighting for territory and violence will stop.
Coke , money , tons of pot have been moving across the border for yrs. with very little violence.

Calderon is as most Mexicans will agree a Donkey.... I look forward to the elections and the coming cartel peace , as it will make my house have some value again.
If you know anything about mexico you will know that the Cartels will be there ALWAYS. they are not going away.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

as an ole friend said about the middle east - build a wall around them, airdrop in guns and bullets, hang the last one left alive as a murderer, end of problem...