Vicious Vegans

Adriana✿

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http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

I could only paste a bit, its looong but worth the read

A Vegan No More

by TASHA on NOVEMBER 19, 2010 in A VEGAN NO MORE

***To read my follow up to this post where I address many of your questions and concerns please click here – Vegan Defector Talks Back***

UPDATE: Thank you all for your comments, I never expected this post to get so much attention. However, I do not have the time nor the desire to continue moderating comments. Some of you have been amazingly supportive and have shared many thought provoking ideas, and I really appreciate that. Unfortunately, others have made threats against me and my family and that I cannot tolerate. So, thank you all very much for reading my post but I am going to be turning off the comments. I hope you can understand.

***

Many of you know that I have recently been struggling for the first time in my life with health problems. When I discovered that my problems were a direct result of my vegan diet I was devastated. 2 months ago, after learning the hard way that not everyone is capable of maintaining their health as a vegan, I made one of the most difficult decisions of my life and gave up veganism and returned to eating an omnivorous diet. My health immediately returned. This experience has been humbling, eye-opening, and profoundly transformative. To hear the whole story just keep reading…


Part 1 – Health Shock

When the doctor first told me that I had numerous vitamin and mineral deficiencies, that I was almost anemic, and my B12 was so low she wanted to give me an injection immediately, I refused to believe her. I actually asked her to show me the blood test results because I thought there had to be some sort of mistake. But there was no mistake, it was right there in black and white; deficiencies and abnormalities across the board.

The results explained perfectly why I had been feeling weak and exhausted for more than 6 months. Whereas I had previously lived for working out and even an hour on the elliptical wasn’t enough for me, lately doing more than 20 minutes at a leisurely pace caused me to yearn to spend the rest of the day in bed recuperating. When I could I slept till noon, I felt lightheaded when I stood up, I couldn’t remember simple words or the names of my friends, and I was freezing cold even in the midst of a sweltering Saudi summer. Of the myriad symptoms I’ve listed here and the ones I will not be describing publicly, the absolute worst of all was my depression. This awful, lifelong foe I’ve been battling on and off was sneaking back into my life, painting the edges of my world a sickening black and stealing the joy that I had fought so desperately to regain.

The doctor, who was kind and very understanding, was surprisingly knowledgeable about vegan diets and had a career long specialization in nutrition. After ruling out any other possible medical condition, she patiently spoke over my tears and my hitching sobs and explained that yes, humans are healthiest when eating a large amount of varied plant foods, but that we would be wrong to ignore the small amounts of animal products that many of us so essentially need. “Most human bodies run optimally on the occasional animal product. Eggs and bits of meat every so often are small but very important parts of a healthy diet.” she said, a look of sorrow on her face. She could see how hard this was for me.

She told me that while there are people who can be quite healthy on a vegan, or predominantly vegan, diet, there were many people who simply could not. After all, every human is biologically and physiologically different, she explained. I listened patiently, refuting her claims with the knowledge I’ve gleaned over the years. After all, I wasn’t just a regular vegan, I was a hardcore, self-righteous and oh so judgmental vegangelical. I never passed up an opportunity for some preaching. She was prepared. Just as patiently she explained how many of the ‘facts’ I was quoting were just plain wrong, or had been presented in a way that distorted the truth. It was horrifying and I almost passed out in her office because I was so worked up.

She respected the fact that I was committed to staying vegan and worked with me for over an hour to figure out how I could maximize the nutrients in my already superbly healthy vegan diet. According to her, I was already doing everything right. Along with the minor dietary suggestions, she also recommended a variety of supplements in addition to the ones I already took everyday, including iron tablets.

I remained silent when she gave me the B vitamin injection, I tried not to cry as I waited in line at the pharmacy for my iron tablets, and when I arrived back home I hid the papers and the box of pills in the back of my bedside table. I didn’t tell anyone for days, not even Cody. I had failed and it would be my dirty little secret.

For a week I took the iron pills dutifully, somehow ignoring the fact that they weren’t vegan. I had felt a small measure of improvement immediately from the B vitamin injection, and was hoping for the same affect from the iron pills. Unfortunately, it was obvious after only a few days that they were making me ill. I couldn’t keep food down, I was spending hours a day in the bathroom, alternately hunched over or perched on top of the toilet. I was losing weight and feeling worse than ever.

I went back to the doctor and, just as patient as ever, she said that I was obviously not handling the pills well. I’m sensitive to just about all medication, even Advil has been known to make me sick, so this was no surprise. She asked me if I would consider adding a few eggs to my diet every day. I shook my head, a few eggs couldn’t really be that important. She explained that yes, they really were. But I still said no. Absolutely not. After another lengthy counseling session she wrote another prescription for another kind of iron supplement. Once again I tried to fight back tears at the pharmacy.

The new round of pills was even worse. I would rather feel weak, dizzy, and depressed, than this violently ill. After 2 weeks I threw the pills in the trash and returned to the doctor again.

She spoke to me for a long time, explaining again in great detail exactly how and why a vegan diet was damaging my body. Nutrition is a shockingly inexact science; no one completely understands the complicated dance of vitamins and minerals, much less the synergy of whole foods and their role in our health. But she tried to give me as comprehensive a breakdown as I would understand. She discussed heme iron, the lack of specific nutrients that lead directly to depression and anxiety, she talked at length about vitamin A, taurine, retinol, beta carotene, vitamin D, omega fatty acids, as well as B12 and the disastrous and irreversible results that occur when the body finally depletes its last stores of that crucial ingredient for health, and much more.

She explained how the health problems we are plagued with in the Western world are not caused by animal products, far from it. Humans have been consuming animals (in much greater quantities than we do now) for millions of years without ill effect, and historically there has never been a single vegan culture. We need to look at the recent additions to our diet to uncover the causes of our sudden modern plagues: refined sugar, hydrogenated vegetable oils, trans fats, refined flours, chemical toxicity and the industrialized denaturing of all forms of food. According to her, avoiding healthy, organic animal products was not only unnecessary for good health, but in most cases positively detrimental to our well being.

“You see,” she concluded, “for many, if not most, people a totally plant based diet is not a good thing. It obviously is not working for you and that is nothing to be ashamed of. The body has evolved to utilize meat efficiently and healthfully, not tablets or pills. You’ve been taking B12 supplements for years, and you’ve been trying to take iron supplements for weeks, and they haven’t been utilized by your body at all. Supplements are a very poor substitute for whole foods. Taking medication is not the best option and it is not necessary; you could almost certainly regain your health on a balanced diet. It is my recommendation that you try that.”

I shook my head in silence.

“I’m sorry, I just can’t. I won’t.” I said to her for the millionth time, wiping the tears that were flowing down my face. “It just isn’t going to happen. I don’t care how sick I am. It’s wrong to eat animals!”

She leaned forward on her desk and made one more plea for me to think more carefully about my health and well being. “Natasha, you are hurting yourself. You are very, very sick. Your hair is falling out, your depression is back, and you are making yourself ill. You cannot go on like this.”

I stared at her for several long seconds, then got up and left the room.

I returned on schedule for my follow up B vitamin shot (and several visits with several other kinds of doctors including a cardiologist – more on that later), but I was only going through the motions, I always stopped myself from dwelling on the serious health problems I was having, it was just too painful.

I kept eating healthfully, as I always have. An entire head of greens every morning in my fruit smoothie, beans almost every day, tons of citrus fruits in my lunch snack plates, tofu, soaked nut pates, whole grains, sprouted grains, and roasted veggies, and of course my daily vitamins, all of the delicious, beautiful food that I loved. This diet was supposed to make me healthy in addition to saving the world, not make me ill. Everything I had ever been told by vegans had said that this was the optimum way for humans to eat.

I wanted desperately for it to be right, for my ethics to outweigh my physiology.

Of course, I never questioned why I was constantly hungry. Why 2 veggie burgers, a giant raw vegetable salad, and a bowl of nuts, couldn’t keep me full longer than 2 hours. It was exhausting, physically painful, and tedious trying to keep myself fed, but I figured it was worth it. I was healthy. Or at least, that’s what I thought until it was proven otherwise. I’m still not sure why I accepted for so long that fatigue, exhaustion, and growing depression were a normal part of life that was to be expected as one grew older. After all, I am only 28 and I’ve never in my life suffered from ill-health. But the fact is: I wanted veganism to work. I wanted desperately for it to be right, for my ethics to outweigh my physiology.

I delicately broached the topic of my ill-health with several vegan friends. I even made comments on other blogs and on twitter highlighting my struggles. The response was nothing short of shocking. In the span of just a few days I received an outpouring of emails from fellow ‘vegan’ bloggers, who told me in confidence that they weren’t really vegan ‘behind the scenes’. They ate eggs, or the occasional fish, or piece of meat, all to keep themselves healthy, but were too scared to admit to it on their blogs. I even received emails from two very prominent and well respected members of the vegan AR community. One a published and much loved vegan cook book author, the other a noted animal rights blogger, their emails detailed their health struggles and eventual unpublicized return to eating meat. Many people sent me links to other vegans who had struggled with veganism related health problems and had been forced to return to eating animals and animal products, or had decided to stop following a vegan diet, such as: Raw Model, Debbie Does Raw, Daniel Vitalis, Sweetly Raw, Chicken Tender, The Non-Practicing Vegan, and PaleoSister, to name just a few. It was refreshing to know I wasn’t the only one suffering from this problem, and the more I heard, the more it seemed I wasn’t even in the minority.
 

Miss*Bijou

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Nov 9, 2006
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A couple responses to the Drama Queen...



Do Ex-Vegans’ Stories Make the Case Against Vegan Diets?
by Ginny Messina on 21. Nov, 2010


When I read the recent blog post by Tasha, who used to be The Voracious Vegan, it felt like déjà vu all over again. Just a couple of months ago I was blogging about another woman—Lierre Keith—whose vegan diet made her so sick that she had to go back to eating meat and, in the process, she learned about how “nutritious” cholesterol is, became an advocate for a type of sustainability that depends upon animal foods (ie, learned that it’s more ethical to eat animals than to be vegan), and realized that in the final analysis, “life requires death.”

There is so much that is eerily parallel in these stories—not just the vague descriptions of the health-related experiences but also the evolving philosophy regarding food justice, and some very, very similar language.

I have to admit I’m always a little suspicious when an ex-vegan dives headlong into a love affair with meat. I understand that someone who believes they require meat may need to tweak their overall perspective to make it feel ethically okay to eat it. But, there is a big difference between choosing to include small amounts of meat in your diet for health reasons versus absolutely reveling in meat consumption as is reflected in Tasha’s recent twitter post: “Bacon, bacon, bacon…how did I ever live without you for so long?” Or this: “Lunch – bacon egg cheese and jalapeno quesadilla. I'm so happy to be eating food that I love.” Or the admission in her blog post that, when she took her first bite of meat after 3 ½ years, she was “moaning with pleasure and joy.”

That doesn’t mean I think she has made any of this up. I do think, though, that a desire to eat meat coupled with sickness due to nutrient deficiencies could make anyone more susceptible to a message about the alleged dangers of a vegan diet. And because those messages are out there, and they are very attractive, I think we’re going to continue seeing stories like this.

Tasha found herself getting sick after 3 years as a healthy vegan, but it’s not until some 4,500 words into her post that she shares that—at the same time and by sheer coincidence—she was also beginning to talk to or read about “revolutionary ecologists,” and was learning that eating meat is the real way to decrease one’s carbon footprint.

On October 4, she tweeted: “Time to reexamine my priorities. Discussions with feminist anthropologists, economists, and agronomists, have me discovering that agriculture, and especially annual grasses agriculture, is just as unethical, violent, and unsustainable as the animal agriculture I've been railing against for years. And this environmental devastation, violence, and havoc is nothing new; it's been going on for 10,000 years.”

If you’ve read The Vegetarian Myth, this will all sound very familiar.
Also on twitter, she has words of praise for Derrick Jensen, who published The Vegetarian Myth (and says that the book saved his life). And then—more coincidence: She ends up under the care of a physician whom Tasha finds “surprisingly knowledgeable about vegan diets,” but, to me, sounds like she walked straight off the home page of the Weston A Price Foundation website. (The WAPF is the group devoted to diets high in animal fats, based on the “research” of a dentist in the 1930s. Their theories are not at all in sync with basic principles of nutrition science.)

Tasha’s doctor “explained how the health problems we are plagued with in the Western world are not caused by animal products, far from it.” And “According to her, avoiding healthy, organic animal products was not only unnecessary for good health, but in most cases positively detrimental to our well being.” Then her doctor talks about a long list of compounds, some of which have been erroneously touted by the WAPF and other anti-vegan groups as missing in plant foods and necessary for health.

Although Tasha had been taking B12 supplements, her doctor tells her that “supplements aren’t a substitute for whole foods.” Actually, as far as B12 is concerned and for those who have severe iron deficiency anemia, supplements are way better than whole foods. And because the body has to work harder to digest and absorb B12 from animal foods, the B12 in pills and fortified foods is actually much more easily absorbed. (There could be other reasons why Tasha wasn’t getting adequate B12 from her supplements; maybe she wasn’t chewing them or was taking doses that were too small or she had pernicious anemia. None would be a reason to start eating meat.)

And when Tasha couldn’t stomach prescription iron pills, her doctor recommended that she eat several eggs a day. Eggs for treating iron deficiency anemia? Yes, they’re a good source of iron, but the protein in eggs inhibits iron absorption, so this isn’t the first food that comes to mind for treating a severe deficiency. These are all issues that make me think that Tasha’s doctor was one more factor in convincing her that a vegan diet was unhealthy.

But it also seems clear that Tasha has bought into the myths behind The Vegetarian Myth. For example, kind of out of the blue—really, a total non-sequitur—she writes: “I know that the lipid hypothesis is completely fallacious.” The lipid hypothesis is the theory that saturated fat raises cholesterol and heart disease risk. Lierre writes about it extensively (rejecting it, of course) and it seems curious for it to be plunked down in Tasha’s post, where she also talks about “nutritious cholesterol and wholesome saturated fats.”

Nobody talks about “nutritious cholesterol” other than the WAPF gang and their protégées like Lierre. So while the post starts out making the case that some people just can’t get enough iron and vitamin B12 without animal foods, it steadily evolves into a full-blown embrace of the importance of animal products overall for both health and the environment.

And then there is the kind of instantaneous healing that occurs with the first bites of animal food. In The Vegetarian Myth, Lierre says “I could feel every cell in my body—literally every cell—pulsing. And finally, finally being fed.” Tasha says “I had only eaten a small piece of cow flesh, and yet I felt totally full, but light and refreshed all at once.” Eating meat also instantly improved her heart rate!

I don’t doubt for one second that Tasha experienced these feelings when she ate meat; I just know that it had nothing to do with what she had eaten and everything to do with her expectations about what the food would do for her. As I said in my review of The Vegetarian Myth, you have to actually digest and absorb the nutrients in food before you’ll feel any of its effects. And if you are consuming nutrients to reverse a deficiency, it will take weeks to feel the benefits.

The whole “listening to the wisdom of one’s body” philosophy is not scientific. Your body is notoriously bad at telling you exactly what you need. You can go for years on a diet that is deficient in calcium and your body won’t say a word about it until you hit your 50s and get osteoporosis. Likewise, you can have a marginal B12 intake and feel great, even though elevated homocysteine levels are busily wreaking long-term damage on your tissues.

Often, your body won’t start to complain until you are well on your way to a serious deficiency. Tasha was apparently deficient in both vitamin B12 and iron. Iron deficiency can be hard to treat especially since prescription doses are often difficult to stomach. But reversing a severe deficiency with food alone in the space of just a few weeks seems unlikely unless she was really eating a lot of red meat and liver. She seems to tweet mostly about eating bacon (not an especially great source of iron), eggs (they inhibit iron absorption) and dairy (it’s devoid of iron and also inhibits iron absorption). So none of that sounds like a blood-building diet to me. It’s true that the protein in meat boosts iron absorption but there are a lot of things that can be done to improve iron status on a vegan diet, and I wonder if Tasha’s pro-meat doctor explored them.

This is all conjecture, of course. I don’t know the extent of Tasha’s deficiencies or what she was eating. In her more than 7,000 word post, she’s rather vague about these details, as is Lierre Keith in her book. I do know that a lot of vegans think they are eating healthfully when they really aren’t. And I believe that a lot of vegans get sick and return to eating meat when all they needed was more sound information about vegan diets and less misinformation from the pseudo-scientific anti-vegan world (as well as the pseudo-scientific pro-vegan world.)

Do some people need to work a little bit harder to get adequate nutrition from a vegan diet? Sure. Young women with heavy periods may find it a challenge to keep up with iron needs. But are there healthy people whose needs absolutely cannot be met on a vegan diet? Maybe; I certainly can’t say that this is 100% impossible. What I can say is that Tasha’s post doesn’t make the case for this. It’s too vague, filled with too many questionable observations about nutrition, and is too clearly indebted to The Vegetarian Myth. I think there is a very good chance that she could return to a vegan diet and do well on it if she had appropriate nutrition advice.

But yes—some people do get sick from their vegan diet. And in some ways, the vegan community—or at least segments of it—are largely at fault for this. People like Lierre Keith do tremendous damage to the cause of animal rights because their stories appeal to others who are not thriving on a vegan diet. Some people are just bouncing around from one dietary philosophy to another, of course, and are especially susceptible to those stories. But others would stick with their vegan diet if they had the right information. That means that vegan activists need to do much more to make sure that good vegan information is available. And that is a segue to another post for later this week.


http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/11/do-ex-vegans’-stories-make-the-case-against-vegan-diets.html



About the author:

My present work as a dietitian and a public health nutritionist has two focuses. First, I’m usually knee-deep in the scientific literature on diet and health as it pertains to vegans. I’ve co-authored a textbook on vegetarian nutrition that is aimed at medical and nutrition professionals. I’ve also twice co-authored the American Dietetic Association’s Position on Vegetarian Diets, and helped develop a food guide for vegetarians and vegans.

I’ve worked with overweight teens, migrant farm workers, and families. As a nutrition instructor at Central Michigan University, I taught principles of public health education to dietetics students. I was the director of nutrition services in a medical center serving more than 50,000 patients, and have developed nutrition education materials for many organizations including the U.S. government’s national cholesterol program.

... and I work as a consultant in vegan and soy nutrition along with my husband, Mark Messina, who has a PhD in nutrition.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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From the comments to the above post .. pretty much sums it up:



Histirionics and attention getting. Sorry, that's how it read to me.

I am not one to denigrate one's choices (or "decisions"); I am probably a crappy vegan because I don't preach and hit people over the head with animal rights and all the rest. I do my thing, try to be an example when I can. I juggle multiple lives, and I like it when they intersect and people learn.

My point is this: I don't care if you've started scarfing down meat. I do, but it is your "decision. However, I didn't like the posturing, the drama, the self-serving hyperbole. And all the salivating and pretense. I personally can't imagine going from vegan to bacon stuffer over night. Good grief. And the applause over this drama. Like watching a train wreck.

Honestly, why that was being RT'd as an "IMPORTANT" blog entry was beyond me.
Hysterical, dramatic, over wrought, poorly written.

She makes no case for anything, except for the fact that she's a major drama queen.

Been there. Done that. See through it. Wish her well. As I do all creatures.
 

kilby

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Nov 15, 2010
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...the posturing, the drama, the self-serving hyperbole...the salivating pretense...a train wreck...
Pretty well sums you up. When may we anticipate you referring to yourself in the third person?
 
Nov 18, 2010
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Do Ex-Vegans’ Stories Make the Case Against Vegan Diets?
by Ginny Messina on 21. Nov, 2010

But reversing a severe deficiency with food alone in the space of just a few weeks seems unlikely unless she was really eating a lot of red meat and liver.
She makes a good case for the treatment of severe deficiency, sure glad I eat a lot of red meat! Who says all Vegans are nuts, although they say you are what you eat. :rolleyes:

Thanks Miss Bijou, if a Vegan dietician says eating a lot of red meat can reverse vitamin deficiencies thats good enough for me. ;)
 

Miss*Bijou

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Nov 9, 2006
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^^^



Pretty well sums you up. When may we anticipate you referring to yourself in the third person?

Awww so soon? Welcome back Hunny. Nice to see you're just as miserable as ever. :rolleyes:



She makes a good case for the treatment of severe deficiency, sure glad I eat a lot of red meat! Who says all Vegans are nuts, although they say you are what you eat. :rolleyes:

Thanks Miss Bijou, if a Vegan dietician says eating a lot of red meat can reverse vitamin deficiencies thats good enough for me. ;)

Do you have a point? Or was that your attempt at being witty as you get all defensive about some imagined threat to your meat eating? Your response is a reaction to something that has absolutely nothing to do with you or your red meat eating related insecurities? :confused: I don't know...help me out here. Is there a specific reaction (from me) you were going for?


What is it with the ignorant, useless comments like that this week? Seriously guys, disagree all you want about anything I say but you're going to have to put a little more effort into it cause that's just lame. Go big or go home. (I have no idea what Trackstar has to say as I chose to ignore him a long time ago but I'd assume I'm not missing a hell of a lot. :rolleyes:)


Really boys, I have zero tolerance or interest in your stupid crap. Sorry if you're unhappy for whatever reason but I'd much prefer to interact with others on this forum whose comments are positive, constructive, insightful and enlightening. If you have a problem, put me on ignore and that's just fine with me..really, don't worry about me - I'll get over my disappointment. :rolleyes:


Later :)
 
Nov 18, 2010
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Do you have a point?
Yes, eating meat is good for you. :)

Why Eating Meat Is Healthy

Overview
Protein is a nutrient that is essential for life. Animal-derived protein such as meat, fish, milk and eggs provides the body with essential amino acids that are required for life, but are not produced by the body and must be eaten. Plant-derived protein such as nuts and beans are considered "incomplete proteins" because they are lacking in one or more of these essential amino acids. Vegans must combine foods carefully to ensure they are consuming all the essential amino acids in the proper proportions--for instance, rice and beans eaten together contain all essential amino acids. Eating quality meat is healthy and fulfills the body's protein requirements.
Amino Acid L-Arginine
Meat contains the amino acid L-arginine, which "keeps a lid on your appetite and reduces body fat," according to Jillian Michaels, "Biggest Loser" strength trainer and author of "Master Your Metabolism." In addition, Leucine, another essential amino acid found in meat, helps produce growth hormone and regulate blood sugar.

Omega-3's
The meat in wild salmon and organic, free-range beef provide a beneficial dose omega-3 fatty acids not found in any plant-based sources. Always stick with grass-fed beef because 7 percent of its total fat content comes from omega 3's, while grain-fed is only 1 percent.
Health Food
Dr. Joseph Mercola, a best-selling author, calls grass-fed beef, "a health food of the highest order" on his natural health website. According to Mercola, grass-fed beef is packed with vitamins and minerals and is a source of CLA (conjugated linoleic acid), a fat that reduces the risk of cancer, obesity, diabetes and a number of immune disorders.
Avoid Pork
Ironically, Mercola strongly recommends avoiding pork because pigs are scavengers and will eat absolutely anything, turning them into breeding grounds for viruses, parasites and infections. Even high temperature cooking will not kill all the potential health hazards in pork. An occasional piece of pork is probably not harmful, but generally, it should be avoided, and as for bacon--he says don't even think about it.
Look for Healthier Alternatives
Avoid all packaged sausages and lunch meats, which are loaded with excess salt and sugar, preservatives and nitrates, and beware deli meats, as they sometimes contain additives. Many markets are responding to customer demand for healthier alternatives and are providing hormone- and antibiotic-free range-fed sausages, lunch and deli meats.
Stick with 3 Oz.
The best way to reap all the health benefits meat has to offer is to keep your portion size to 3 ounces, and limit yourself to two portions per day. That's just 6 ounces per day, or the size of two decks of cards or cassette tapes, which is much smaller than the typical super-size restaurant servings.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/52929-eating-meat/#ixzz16LR5NreY
 

Bartdude

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^^^



Pretty well sums you up. When may we anticipate you referring to yourself in the third person?
You're an idiot.
 

Adriana✿

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Happily Ever After!
Thank goodness for the ignore button! I am running of space to ignore, hope its unlimited.

I find that when I am not feeling well, I cut out all meat and go vegetarian and I feel much better. Plus none of my vegan/veggie friends EVER get sick. Something to be said for that. I don't eat red meat often and do try to be an ethical eater (no kfc ex.). For omnivores, I also think the key to optimal health is to make sure more than 70% of ones diet is raw IMHO

She sure is verbose LOL I bet she would have done fine if she was at least eating eggs. The comments and backlash from the Vegan community were entertaining LOL
 
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Harmony-bc

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storm rider

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All facts and arguments can be twisted to suit the needs of the needer. Example

When they close a gas station they excavate all the soil around it because it's petroleum has often leeched into the earth. Using that premise it only makes SENSE to extract every single drop of bitumen from the oil sands give it's also petroleum in the ground.

Meat is bad but your 12000 km avacado flown on a jet plane with a huge carbon footprint which causes the oil industry to further it's deepwater & sands exploration or continue frac'ing in the Bakken using chemicals & 3 million gallons of water per well simply to acquire enough fuel so you can have a guacamole which was made in a factory in Mexico and then shipped using more fossil fuel to your grocery store which you drove to your giant SUV which you warmed up for 10 minutes because it was cold out...may just be as bad. Or worse even. Who knows.

Oh fuck YEAH...now that was a response that I liked....of course a bunch of left coasters would offer the argument that they buy locally grown organic avacadoes.

And to turn this whole thread sideways....on to global warming....where the megastar protecters of the earth such as al gore and david suzuki FLY in jets to every conference they have to attend rather than video confrencing...then again if they did not personally attend they could no enjoy fancy dining in exotic cities as well as shopping for trinkets and of course it is all paid for by their respective foundations that they run...and take a huge salary from to maintain their lifestyles and exotic manions that they call home...all in the name of "saving the environment"

SR
 

Harmony-bc

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I quit driving a car quite a few years ago [because of gas prices, car maintenance, the air, etc, etc]. I take transit or walk, and the occasional taxi or ride from a friend. I eat local as much as I can, and I try to buy made in Canada. I boycott walmart, and quite a few other places. These are my personal decisions, which I never try to force on others. I"m not perfect and living in this year, it is impossible [or just really hard] to live without some luxuries. I just do what I can and what I'm comfortable with. I'm always joking that I choose to live ethically when its convenient, lol. I just try to do my best, that's all.
 

trackstar

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I quit driving a car quite a few years ago [because of gas prices, car maintenance, the air, etc, etc]. I take transit or walk, and the occasional taxi or ride from a friend. I eat local as much as I can, and I try to buy made in Canada. I boycott walmart, and quite a few other places. These are my personal decisions, which I never try to force on others. I"m not perfect and living in this year, it is impossible [or just really hard] to live without some luxuries. I just do what I can and what I'm comfortable with. I'm always joking that I choose to live ethically when its convenient, lol. I just try to do my best, that's all.
The perfect way to do your part, do what you feel is right without ramming it down other's throats! Atta girl :)
 

Adriana✿

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Agreed Harmony! I just make concious, informed decisions and do the best I can.

If we all wanted to eat no animals, we would all just have to stop eating. And I just hope vegetarians aren't vegetarians for the animals, because the land and the entire process needed to grow those vegetables/food kills millions of birds, little critters etc, from seed to table.

Read Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver, if you want to learn more; not only how OILY your food is(referigated oil guzzzling trucks ex.) but also how to eat what you grow or can get from farmers within a 100 mile radius (my favorite author, she taught me how to eat!)
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
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david suzuki does a lot of his press and shit over the web now. just sayin'.

I agree, Mona. But that recycled argument gets brought up over and over again by people who like to justify their own inaction. While it is an interesting point with some value, the big picture is that if you consider all the people David Suziki can reach, educate and inspire, I'm sure the benefits outweight the non contributions of those so eager to try to discredit them, probably to try to justify their own lack of effort or changes. It's kind of a ridiculous tactic, really. And of course, it's completely unproductive.


Dood, I do agree with a lot of what you say of course, but I find it a little unproductive that these discussions always end up being about blaming "the other". It's definitely important to get the info out but I think these discussions have to start focusing more on individual personal responsibility and action instead because that's what we have immediate control over; our own consumption habits and efforts. I'm trying to remind myself that a more positive, pro-active is much more likely to inspire others to action than long lists of others sins without offering examples of change - which we're growing used to and only exacerbate our inaction.


I'm really not sure why storm rider has such negative comments, silly attempts at discrediting various people and just an overall angry and defensive attitude anytime the topic is brought up, maybe one of these days he will bless us with an explanation. But until then, i really fail to see what he hopes to accomplish and why he chooses this approach. An approach that offers no positive solutions or sharing of his own efforts and actions, this resulting in no positive contributions to himself or anyone else. (But that must be that crazy East coaster in me? :rolleyes:)






All facts and arguments can be twisted to suit the needs of the needer.

Agree! It's SO frustrating when you're trying to learn more about something before you make a decision but reading up on it makes you even more confusing in the end and leaves you frustrated with all the arguments and counter-arguments that just never seem to end! lol
 

Man Mountain

Too Old To Die Young
Oct 29, 2006
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Vancouver
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I think I <3 Brie Larson!

Now back to your regularly scheduled Vegan arguments.
 
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