The Age of new automotive fuels

[georgebushmoron]

Like it or not guys, the future is not going to be gasoline. I don't like it - well, that is, nothing jumps out at me as a viable alternative that gives me as much fun. Who knows, maybe they'll come out with nuclear-powered cars, but not for another 100 years..... rats.

Anyway, the big automakers are already jumping on with different fuel options. Governments are going in. Manufacturers are exploiting every market segment that shows an opening (hint: wanna get rich? watch carefully and be ready to jump in).

This is not a poll of what you think will happen. This is a poll of what you want as the new automotive fuel. Let's hear it.... and let's hear your predictions.

 

[therealrex]

Hydrogen will never happen it will never be economical to produce Hydrogen. I think it will be Ethanol-Electric Hybrids

 

[georgebushmoron]

Hydrogen will never happen it will never be economical to produce Hydrogen. I think it will be Ethanol-Electric Hybrids

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I read "The Hydrogen Economy" and it puts forward a convincing argument about its economic viability. Besides, BMW is almost out with its first hydrogen fueled car for the consumer market.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Incidentally, I test drove the soul-killing Prius just out of curiosity. Being electric, the car turned itself off at stop lights. Starting the car was done by pushing an "On" button. The damn thing felt like I was driving a computer. I might as well have been on the skytrain.... at least I don't have to think about navigation and traffic there.

 

[sdw]

Hydrogen will never happen it will never be economical to produce Hydrogen. I think it will be Ethanol-Electric Hybrids

Not to mention the process that is necessary to remove excess water vapour and make the hydrogen suitable as a fuel. Then, there is the difficulty of making fuel cells and fuel lines that will hold the hydrogen until it gets to the engine.

I think we will eventually see Ethanol-Electric Hybrids with 2 fuel tanks. The only negative to starting an engine on Ethanol is they don't start easily when it's cold. If there is a starting mixture in a small tank and a running mixture in the larger tank, the problem is solved and the car can be run on a 50-50 Ethanol-Gasoline mixture with the engine warmed up.

 

[Quarter Mile'r]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I read "The Hydrogen Economy" and it puts forward a convincing argument about its economic viability. Besides, BMW is almost out with its first hydrogen fueled car for the consumer market.

Isn't this what that Ballard power Co. is trying to produce?

Personally I would like to see Alcohol as the fuel of choice.
Way more powerfull than gasoline and runs a lot lower temperature.
It's liquid just like gasoline and you only need to have a somewhat
different delivery system on your engine with the injectors that are
in place. IE, carburated alcohol engines only need a larger jets
and a slightly more modified metering block.
Your engine runs extremely clean, no carbon build up and the power
from it is great.
With all the excess grain we got sitting around it should be cheap
as borsch to produce. Like Vodka in Europe and Russia.

That way we could still keep our V8 ground pounders running and
for those that like a little less power your V6 and I4 engines.

Take for instance the blown alcohol cars at the track, what they burn
costs about 9 dollars a gallon at the VP shack......
Now if it was mass produced would be cheaper than today's gasoline.
116 octane racing gasoline is 20 dollars a gallon.


.............QM'r

 

[slacker]

Incidentally, I test drove the soul-killing Prius just out of curiosity. Being electric, the car turned itself off at stop lights. Starting the car was done by pushing an "On" button. The damn thing felt like I was driving a computer. I might as well have been on the skytrain.... at least I don't have to think about navigation and traffic there.

You should check out the Tesla Roadster: http://www.teslamotors.com

I'd be happy to let it suck my soul. I'd get one if they weren't sold out and were a bit cheaper.

I think the car of the future will probably be electric, but with a some kind of fuel based power plant as reserve for long road trips. The Chevy volt is actually a great idea, but it's range totally sucks on the electric charge. And it's a Chevy. Basically if they can improve the range and offer it reasonably cheap it's a no brainer for me.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Isn't this what that Ballard power Co. is trying to produce?

Personally I would like to see Alcohol as the fuel of choice.
Way more powerfull than gasoline and runs a lot lower temperature.
It's liquid just like gasoline and you only need to have a somewhat
different delivery system on your engine with the injectors that are
in place. IE, carburated alcohol engines only need a larger jets
and a slightly more modified metering block.
Your engine runs extremely clean, no carbon build up and the power
from it is great.
With all the excess grain we got sitting around it should be cheap
as borsch to produce. Like Vodka in Europe and Russia.

That way we could still keep our V8 ground pounders running and
for those that like a little less power your V6 and I4 engines.

Take for instance the blown alcohol cars at the track, what they burn
costs about 9 dollars a gallon at the VP shack......
Now if it was mass produced would be cheaper than today's gasoline.
116 octane racing gasoline is 20 dollars a gallon.


.............QM'r

So... how hard is it to convert my car to run on alcohol? I'd really love to have a performance boost. How easy is it to get fuel?

 

[Walk Softly]

Bio Diesel

Despite having been around for over 80 years, the diesel engine is only recently starting to come into it's own. Originally Herr Diesel designed his engine to run on peanut oil and "diesel fuel" was invented later by the oil companies. Bio-diesel mixes run fine in stock engines and with a few mods, pure bio-diesel can be run. There are some cold weather limitations but nothing that couldn't be addressed with current technology.

The gasoline engine has had huge amounts of research put into it; whatever replaces it will take a while to settle in and catch up but surely we can find something cleaner and easier to replace.

Cheers! WS.

 

[rollerboy]

Biodiesel has a higher energy density than ethanol, a much higher net energy gain (energy extracted after subtracting energy inputs) of 99% vs 30% for ethanol. Runs in current diesel engines. Cellulosic biofuels are a no-brainer for filling the gap caused by dwindling oil supplies.

Hydrogen is a pipedream. Dangerous, expensive, requires unrealistic levels of new infrastructure. Also, hydrogen has to be produced, so another energy source such as nuclear would be needed to support this hydrogen infrastructure. Fuel cells capable of directly consuming more conventional fuels are more practical.

Hybrids are the emerging winner. Evolution of existing infrastructure and technology. No reason why hybrids can't be built as flexible fuel vehicles, consuming gasoline, bio-fuels, synthetic fuels or blends. Direct fuel cells may eventually replace combustion engines as the means of converting fuel into electricity. The promise of fast charge batteries (<5 min for 80%+ charge), and the option to use grid power make hybrids the logical choice.

 

[dilligaf]

cars will be electric in the future imho.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Hybrids are the emerging winner. Evolution of existing infrastructure and technology. No reason why hybrids can't be built as flexible fuel vehicles, consuming gasoline, bio-fuels, synthetic fuels or blends. Direct fuel cells may eventually replace combustion engines as the means of converting fuel into electricity. The promise of fast charge batteries (<5 min for 80%+ charge), and the option to use grid power make hybrids the logical choice.

I always thought hybrids were supposed to be a temporary measure until something that completely replaces gasoline arrives. Anyways, hybrid vehicles for all their good, only save something like 1/3 the gas. In the long term for the economy, it still doesn't solve the impending depletion problem.

 

[mick_eight]

I like the idea of the alcohol powered cars for a variety of reasons. The main one being that it could theoretically cut down the trips to the liquor store, if you run dangerous low on martini ingredients. Just have a spiggot installed on the tank for recreational use.

Two different alcohols , wood alcohol, grain alcohol, one gets you drunk, the other blinds and kills you. Plus fuel would have addtives. One of the problems with these fuels is premature engine failures.The fuel is so dry that hot spots happen in the heads and burning of valves. Transit hydrogen buses all had engine failures.

 

[sdw]

I always thought hybrids were supposed to be a temporary measure until something that completely replaces gasoline arrives. Anyways, hybrid vehicles for all their good, only save something like 1/3 the gas. In the long term for the economy, it still doesn't solve the impending depletion problem.

There are actually GM cars that are totally electric. The new one is the Volt: http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

The old one is the EV1: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/04/09/electric.cars.ap/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/

GM produced 1000 EV1s of which 375 were still on the road last year. GM never sold these cars, instead they were leased. All of the EV1s were leased in California so that GM could make fleet targets under California emission laws. I note that wikipedia says that some were also leased in Arizona, I never saw one there.

The EV1 is actually quite sporty. It easily merges onto the Freeway and is the ultimate "pocket rocket", there are very few cars that can out accelerate an EV1 from a traffic light. It's problems were the lifetime of the battery pack, it's requirement to be plugged in to a 220 volt electric supply for 12 hours for each 5 hours of use and the lifetime of the constant velocity joints.

Honda also produced an electric car in California, the EV plus: http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/04/30/electric_car/index.html

The Honda wasn't very successful as it can't get out of it's own way. It's also tiny. It makes a Smart Car look large.

Toyota was producing an electric version of the RAV4 that can be purchased in California.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/index.html

The RAV4EV is another "pocket rocket", but has a roll-over problem, battery problems and drivetrain reliability problems.

So, it is possible to build cars that are very exciting to drive and still have them use electricity as their only fuel. The big problem with electric cars is they all just remove the pollution from the car to the plant that produces electricity. Also the exciting electric cars use a lot of electricity and have more battery problems than the Hybrids. The Hybrids, because they carry their generator with themselves don't have to deal with the deep drain / recharge cycle that the "pure" electric cars have.

 

[rollerboy]

I always thought hybrids were supposed to be a temporary measure until something that completely replaces gasoline arrives. Anyways, hybrid vehicles for all their good, only save something like 1/3 the gas. In the long term for the economy, it still doesn't solve the impending depletion problem.

A Prius gets something like 50-60mpg, and this is merely the first generation of successful hybrid. Future hybrids will undoubtedly be even more efficient. Revolution through evolution.

Hydrogen and electric power are not fuel sources, but rather intermediaries, because they must be generated from other sources. This conversion process, storage, and transmission induce futher losses. For instance, about half of electrical energy is lost transmitting it over power lines from the power plant to your home. That's in addition to the 30-50% loss in converting the energy from the fuel to electricity in the first place. Batteries leak significant amounts of energy as well. A pure electric vehicle requires larger, heavier, more expensive batteries, which must store power for longer periods. Hence it will use more energy (due to weight and battery leakage), have a shorter driving range, longer charge time, and cost more.

There's no free lunch.

 

[rat_fink]

Prius Problem

The thing about this story that caught my attention was the guy said on TV he was driving the car home from just buying it at the dealer; although the story doesn't repeat that.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/11185573/detail.html

Anyone else here of problems with the Prius?

 

[squid]

I saw a program where sugar cane, I least I think it was, was being converted into fuel. U talk about cheap.

I think new diesel technology can be at least an interim answer. You can get good fuel mileage, meet emission standards and still have performance. I think even California will allow new diesel vehicles and if you think diesel cars don't perform, I refer you to AUDI'S success in road racing with their R10 race car.

 

[FuZzYknUckLeS]

I voted hy-dro-gen

 

[*JR]

I am waiting for the MR Fusion I saw on back to the future.... thats supposed to be out in 2015 if the movie was right.

 

[rollerboy]

This new technology;directs coal-burning emissions into the ground,rather than releasing the emissions into the atmosphere.

Somehow, I see this leading to ground water and soil contamination...

Coal be dirty.

As for grain ethanol;it presently requires just as much fossil-fuel energy to produce grain ethanol,as to be realized in the grain ethanol itself.
Perhaps farm& transport equipment running on electricty;will grow grain,for other energy applications of ethanol.

Ethanol can be made at a net energy gain of 30% from corn. But it can also be made from sugar cane, which is likely more economical. The big tech breakthrough on the horizon is ethanol from cellulose.

Biodiesel can be produced more cheaply than regular diesel, with a net energy gain of 99%. Not bad for a first generation bio-fuel.

The energy issue is sustained electrical production means.

Ie, the energy issue is producing energy.

Storing electrical energy isn't exactly a solved problem. Batteries are expensive, toxic, heavy, take a long time to charge, leak energy fairly rapidly...

Some might say that the storage is more problematic than generation. We have abundant available energy sources.