Tentative deal reached in teacher's strike

CJ Tylers

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Jan 3, 2003
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baby sitters would cost more, actually. Even after being charged a rental fee for their classrooms, if they were paid the same as teenage baby sitters, their take home would double. More, if they were paid the same as day cares. (charged on a per head basis... assuming each teacher was an owner/operator).
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
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With this kind of agreement no-one is happy, but that is part of the process of negotiation.
Teachers gave up a lot of their demands, but managed to get E80 off the table, so the court appeal is going ahead and the battle isn't over yet.
This is just another step in the long saga. The government conceded less than the teachers did. Overall, it seems a reasonably fair settlement, however, there is still the ability to rip the agreement up after the Court of Appeal decision. Not good at all, though I question whether the government would want to do that before an election.
You post your own personal feelings like they are indeed fact. What are your sources?

How do you know no one is happy? They all responded to the gandalf poll and the results are in already?

I was walking my dogs last night and spoke to a couple who are teachers and their sentiment was one of relief, two of they thought the deal was fair in that both sides moved significantly to get it done and three it is a long term contract.

If one side is so unhappy with a Shotgun Contract, why would they sign for six years?

That makes no sense to me at all if "With this kind of agreement no-one is happy, but that is part of the process of negotiation."
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Okay, so this isn't an empirically-based comment based on conclusions from a statistically valid poll of the membership. Call it informed opinion.
However, I don't think there would be many who are over the moon with joy at the considerable financial sacrifice they had to endue, along with not being in the classroom doing what they prefer doing, as a result of this process. Financially, most (if not all) would have lost more than they will gain. However, they have made some gains on class size and composition, and that will benefit everyone in the education system, students as well as teachers.

I think the sentiment is (as you stated) one of relief that it is over and there is some stability for six years. Both sides had some wins and gave up some ground. A lingering unknown will be what will happen following the Court of Appeal decision, but that is unlikely to lead to another protracted period on strike (at least, not in the next few years).

I can tell you from being an advisor in the bargaining process, that just because you make a deal and sign off on it, doesn't mean it is one you are happy with. It is a deal that you think is the best you can get in the circumstances, and that is a different thing. And six years over five years? There may have been a sufficient sweetner in there to add a year... or may simply have been one of those things they gave into at 3am in the morning to get the deal done. It also buys them another year to rebuild their warchest.
 

tadolder

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2012
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Sorry, so why are so many of you convinced the teachers got steam-rolled? Have the terms even been released yet? I thought nothing was until the teachers saw what was on the table?
100% correct, we are all speculating the content of the deal. The fact is the teachers will not regain what they have lost salary wise, they voted 99% for binding arbitration, mostly because they wanted to, and need to be back in the classrooms. This was a negotiated deal, much to everyone's surprise, the teachers will vote acceptance. Each side will put their own spin on it to save face. We probably wont see the agreement in its entirety or be able to understand the legal jargon anyways.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
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Very good take BJ. There is no winning or losing as so many of you want to declare. And just so you're all clear, when the BC government was negotiating at the table, they are doing it on behalf of us - the residents of BC and the taxpayers. There is no side when look at it that way, so no winners or losers.

And here is an interesting read about our out of control Municipal salaries:

Don Cayo: Municipal labour settlements out of control; could the province do any better?

However contracts are settled, it needs to be done better then it is now



If you care about getting value for the money you shell out for important civic services — for water and sewer, parks and roads, garbage collection and much more — who should you trust to nail down the best deal on your behalf?

Is your best bet to stick with your municipal council — which, no matter where you live in B.C., has probably not set out any underlying principles on which to base its pay scales, is apt to change course radically thanks to elections every three years, may well be inexperienced in labour relations, is inclined to cave to pressure from voters to get a deal, and has a generally weak record of financial stewardship?

Or would you be more comfortable if the provincial government — which has the legal right, and often the political will, to bully the municipalities into doing what it wants — were to step in? This would mean, as you probably don’t need to be reminded, an enhanced role for the very folks who’ve been “managing” negotiations with the province’s teachers on our behalf.

So, to put it even more bluntly, who do you want looking out for your tax dollar — Tweedledumb or Tweedledumber?

These are the questions that sprang to mind as I perused the Ernst and Young report, compiled for the province and leaked to the media by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, and as I read the very good summary of it that ran on page one of Tuesday’s Vancouver Sun.

Both the report and the story paint a picture of municipal salary increases that are — although they don’t use these words — running out of control. They’re rising far in excess of inflation and at double the rate of other public sector employees, whether they work directly for the government or for one of its provincial agencies.

The report speaks of large, sophisticated unions on one side of the negotiating table and, on the other, municipal representatives who are, at best, inadequately organized and, at worst, in over their heads. They lack the ultimate power the province has to legislate their employees back to work.

As well: “The services they provide are closer to the citizenry (e.g. garbage collection, recreation centres, etc.) and thus councils feel enormous pressure not to disrupt these services.”

The report’s conclusion — that the province step in, create a municipal compensation strategy similar to the one it has for its own employees, and then centralize the bargaining process — riled the Union of B.C. Municipalities, which is generally wary of provincial meddling and protective of its members’ turf.

The UBCM president, Rhona Martin of the Columbia-Shuswap Regional District, scored a telling point when, as reported by my colleagues Jeff Lee and Matthew Robinson, she noted that consolidation into a single bargaining process is what happened with teachers back in 1994.

“And look how that’s turned out,” she added

Quite aside from her point — and it’s a good one — it’s hard to see how small, rural districts like Martin’s and big cities like Vancouver or Surrey and all the varied places in between could all be served well by a centralized bargaining process and/or a single provincewide contract. Ditto for the booming Northeast, where costs and thus wages are likely to be high, and the many towns that rely on dwindling forestry jobs.

But it seems to me the province could still use its senior government status to play a useful role in, on one hand, moderating the fragmentation and excesses that are commonplace now and, on the other, leaving local communities with some autonomy to make their own deals with their workers.

It could be — but probably shouldn’t be — something as crude as a cap on allowable increases, along the lines of how back in 2003 the province capped the tax rates that could be imposed on companies that lease port property after several municipalities let their levies rise to unjustifiable heights.

Or it could be modelled on the provincial government’s guidelines for settlements with its own employees — limits on the cost of the total settlement, with the precise breakdown to be determined by bargaining.

Or it could be a more sophisticated system of setting a ceiling based on where pay rates for individual municipalities, or for groups of municipalities, are today, and how these wage levels compare with more-or-less similar jobs across the province.

The point is that whatever the system, it needs to be better than it is now. And the mayors and councils in scores of municipalities, despite having had years to demonstrate they can be counted on to do the job on behalf of their citizens, have instead demonstrated that they can’t. Or won’t — which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
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Okay, so this isn't an empirically-based comment based on conclusions from a statistically valid poll of the membership. Call it informed opinion.
However, I don't think there would be many who are over the moon with joy at the considerable financial sacrifice they had to endue, along with not being in the classroom doing what they prefer doing, as a result of this process. Financially, most (if not all) would have lost more than they will gain. However, they have made some gains on class size and composition, and that will benefit everyone in the education system, students as well as teachers.

I think the sentiment is (as you stated) one of relief that it is over and there is some stability for six years. Both sides had some wins and gave up some ground. A lingering unknown will be what will happen following the Court of Appeal decision, but that is unlikely to lead to another protracted period on strike (at least, not in the next few years).

I can tell you from being an advisor in the bargaining process, that just because you make a deal and sign off on it, doesn't mean it is one you are happy with. It is a deal that you think is the best you can get in the circumstances, and that is a different thing. And six years over five years? There may have been a sufficient sweetner in there to add a year... or may simply have been one of those things they gave into at 3am in the morning to get the deal done. It also buys them another year to rebuild their warchest.
So the Survey results are now in and accounted for with 86.1% of teachers agreeing to the new contract.

One might say you didn't have a clue what you were purporting to be the 'facts' about the new contract.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
So the Survey results are now in and accounted for with 86.1% of teachers agreeing to the new contract.

One might say you didn't have a clue what you were purporting to be the 'facts' about the new contract.
I don't think you read what I wrote carefully enough or picked up all the nuances in my wording. Reread my last para in the post you just cited.
Of course they would sign off on it. They are backed into a corner and many have made significant sacrifices during this. Doesn't mean they are happy with it.
You might say I don't have a clue, but that would be your opinion. One, I would suggest, is incorrect. I also happen to be an educator involved in the bargaining process for a collective agreement. There is a range of feelings and opinions from teachers around this, but the relief and happiness is about it being over and they being able to get back in the classroom. This has been a very costly stand they have taken (and one I applaud them for). But being happy about the outcome? Bittersweet maybe. It is complex and not as simplistic as you make it sound. And remember that the BCTF does not have the unanimous support of the teachers on the ground.
 
Jan 10, 2007
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I don't think you read what I wrote carefully enough or picked up all the nuances in my wording. Reread my last para in the post you just cited.
Of course they would sign off on it. They are backed into a corner and many have made significant sacrifices during this. Doesn't mean they are happy with it.
You might say I don't have a clue, but that would be your opinion. One, I would suggest, is incorrect. I also happen to be an educator involved in the bargaining process for a collective agreement. There is a range of feelings and opinions from teachers around this, but the relief and happiness is about it being over and they being able to get back in the classroom. This has been a very costly stand they have taken (and one I applaud them for). But being happy about the outcome? Bittersweet maybe. It is complex and not as simplistic as you make it sound. And remember that the BCTF does not have the unanimous support of the teachers on the ground.
Well as a taxpayer I can tell you I am definitely NOT happy with the teachers union or this settlement. They have been holding the taxpayers (I don't refer to the government because ultimately it is us the TAXPAYERS that foot the bill) for way too long.

Class size and composition should NEVER be under the control of the union.

I own a business and that would be the equivalent of having my employees dictate to me how many workers I should hire. Why the fuck would that make any sense?

I am sure that the class size and composition issue is more complex but ultimately could someone please explain to me why the union should have control over it?

hornygandalf - I am sure you must realize that there is a lot of taxpayers who do not support the teachers union and their position. Based on my circle of friends and associates, I do not know of one single person that supports the teachers' position.

Look at the last election if there was ever a chance to show union support ............ it should have be the NDP involved in this in this negotiation BUT ..............

The silent majority ultimately decided that they did not want left wing ideologies running this province.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Well as a taxpayer I can tell you I am definitely NOT happy with the teachers union or this settlement. They have been holding the taxpayers (I don't refer to the government because ultimately it is us the TAXPAYERS that foot the bill) for way too long.
I don't think there is ANYONE who is truly happy with this. There were some BIG compromises made to reach the deal.
There are many teachers who also detest the BCTF, so there is a complex dynamic there.
Ultimately though, the government did get a deal that cost them relatively little extra, and at the same time dealt with some of the overhanging liabilities.

Class size and composition should NEVER be under the control of the union.
My understanding is that the union doesn't 'control' that (otherwise they would be a lot lower). What the teachers are asking for is to be able to negotiate size and composition, and to be able to have those discussions with the government. The teachers are the ones on the frontline having to deal with the problems around class size and increasing numbers of special needs kids in their classes each day. Government bureaucrats rarely have any idea of what the reality is in the classroom. So, totally appropriate that teachers should have input and be part of those negotiations and decisions.

I own a business and that would be the equivalent of having my employees dictate to me how many workers I should hire. Why the fuck would that make any sense?
That isn't what the union is asking. A better comparison would be your employees all working overtime and becoming burned out due to the workload, and them sitting down with you and saying they need some things changed so everything works more efficiently and effectively. It is a two-way discussion. Otherwise, you start seeing an increase in absenteeism, sick days and the such like. Your employees simply become less effective.

I am sure that the class size and composition issue is more complex but ultimately could someone please explain to me why the union should have control over it?
Already explained. NOT control, but a seat at the table to discuss and negotiate what is reasonable and appropriate to enable the best learning environment for the kids (work conditions and learning environment are closely connected).

hornygandalf - I am sure you must realize that there is a lot of taxpayers who do not support the teachers union and their position. Based on my circle of friends and associates, I do not know of one single person that supports the teachers' position.
You have a different circle of friends from me. The majority of mine support the teachers, though to a lesser degree the BCTF.

Look at the last election if there was ever a chance to show union support ............ it should have be the NDP involved in this in this negotiation BUT ..............

The silent majority ultimately decided that they did not want left wing ideologies running this province.
And the election result was in part based on media message and positioning. But, I agree that the BC NDP is a tainted brand, and they were remarkably silent during the teachers dispute when they actually could have shown some leadership.
BC needs another political party that is a viable and strong alternative to the two we have now.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Two issues that didn't get resolved but would help immensely in all of this:

A) There's still no way for bad teachers with high seniority to get weeded out of the teaching union.

B) Parents and students still have more power over teachers.
I agree with you with A, though I don't know the best answer to this (that is also acceptable to the union) to ensuring they aren't in the system long enough to have high seniority. But, I'm not sure how prevalent or how much of a problem B is. I haven't seen it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Initial thoughts are that this would be that B is more of a problem in the private schools.
 
Jan 10, 2007
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My understanding is that the union doesn't 'control' that (otherwise they would be a lot lower). What the teachers are asking for is to be able to negotiate size and composition, and to be able to have those discussions with the government. The teachers are the ones on the frontline having to deal with the problems around class size and increasing numbers of special needs kids in their classes each day. Government bureaucrats rarely have any idea of what the reality is in the classroom. So, totally appropriate that teachers should have input and be part of those negotiations and decisions.


That isn't what the union is asking. A better comparison would be your employees all working overtime and becoming burned out due to the workload, and them sitting down with you and saying they need some things changed so everything works more efficiently and effectively. It is a two-way discussion. Otherwise, you start seeing an increase in absenteeism, sick days and the such like. Your employees simply become less effective.

You have a different circle of friends from me. The majority of mine support the teachers, though to a lesser degree the BCTF.
I did understand that the Liberals took away the right to negotiate the class size and composition. I just happen to agree with that approach. In my opinion this should not be an item for negotiation. I do understand your position.

In my 20 plus years of running my own business it has been solely up to me to decide on the level of staffing. I guess I am just not used to any form of negotiation.

You are right I do run in a different circle of friends but I also agree with you that they are more pissed at the BCTF over the actual teachers.

I have only had one union job in my life and that was at a mill in the interior as a summer job. I just don't understand that if the majority of teachers do not support the hard-line stance of the BCTF then why don't they have a say in their positions.

I mean the BCTF has also been on strike against the NDP government.

I agree that we need another political party in BC but I don't think you would agree with my opinion that we need a stronger right wing party!
 

1nitestan

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Jun 18, 2013
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Two issues that didn't get resolved but would help immensely in all of this:

A) There's still no way for bad teachers with high seniority to get weeded out of the teaching union.
Don't hold your breath on this one. The internal voting structure and politics within the BCTF will make this untouchable until a full generation of teachers retire or die off.

I have only had one union job in my life and that was at a mill in the interior as a summer job. I just don't understand that if the majority of teachers do not support the hard-line stance of the BCTF then why don't they have a say in their positions.
Bullying by the core members of the BCTF...its' like that in every union. The problem isn't gonna get better.

I agree that we need another political party in BC but I don't think you would agree with my opinion that we need a stronger right wing party!
No way in hell is this a good idea - You want a party that's even more right wing!?!? Say goodbye to the revenues generated by legal weed. Say hello to a crackdown on the sex trade. Say hello to cuts to social services and more user fees to offset lowered taxes. Say hello to more homeless people.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
For those who think I have no idea what I am talking about, or I am talking out of my arse...
Just came across this: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/19/i-dont-like-this-agreement-b-c-teachers-reluctantly-ratify-six-year-deal-with-7-25-salary-increase/?__federated=1 The latter part of the article details teacher comments, and clearly they are not happy with the agreement at all.
And, apparently, they feel that the classroom size and composition issue still hasn't been adequately addressed, which means this is not the end of the issue (though it might be quiet for a while).
 

hornygandalf

Active member
I want to start by thanking you for the respectful tone in your response and disagreement with me. Others on the board could learn from how you responded.

I did understand that the Liberals took away the right to negotiate the class size and composition. I just happen to agree with that approach. In my opinion this should not be an item for negotiation. I do understand your position.

In my 20 plus years of running my own business it has been solely up to me to decide on the level of staffing. I guess I am just not used to any form of negotiation.
I don't think it is appropriate for unions to be negotiating levels of staffing in many situations. Teaching, however, is one where I think they should have a voice (not the final say, but a strong voice). In the people I manage, workload issues are a concern of mine and I will certainly consult with my staff if I think there is a problem. Government isn't that close to what is happening in the classroom, and with layers of bureaucrats between the classroom and the decision makers, there needs to be a conduit for discussion of such issues. Negotiation at the bargaining table is a reasonable place for that, in my opinion.

Why do private schools so often tout their smaller class sizes? Because it REALLY DOES MATTER in terms of the quality of education. And where teachers are seeing their classes get bigger and bigger, they know that the quality of education suffers as a result, even if they do put in more hours at the end of the day. In the classroom, however, their contact hours haven't changed, and so that means less face-to-face time with each individual student.

I have only had one union job in my life and that was at a mill in the interior as a summer job. I just don't understand that if the majority of teachers do not support the hard-line stance of the BCTF then why don't they have a say in their positions.
I too have only had one union job. Previously, when I've been in an environment where there was unionism (I also was a student at the time), it was also voluntary membership. And I declined to join as I had already negotiated a contract and level of pay higher than almost every other union member in that location. I didn't need them.

However, I also see and understand the very real need for unions, and in my opinion, increasing need for unions in todays economic environment. There is a reason why economic growth has been sluggish coming out of recessions in recent years. It is because the working/middle classes haven't seen any real increase in their incomes for over twenty years. A large portion of the gains has gone to a very small group of people at the top. And they don't contribute to economic growth when they make more money. As a sidenote, you might want to take a look at Capital by Thomas Piketty.

In terms of teachers and their support of the BCTF. My knowledge is somewhat sketchy, but as I understand it the system within BCTF protects entrenched interests, even if they are a minority viewpoint. I think there are others on this board who can speak to this better than I can.

I agree that we need another political party in BC but I don't think you would agree with my opinion that we need a stronger right wing party!
You are right that I would disagree with your opinion, as I feel we have a conservative party in power in the province already, who ursurped the Liberal label. And much damage has been done as a result of the current variant of conservatism, so I would shudder to think how much worse the inequality would be in society, along with increased crime and such like, as a result of more conservative positions. But that disagreement is only if we are talking about the current, very flawed, political system.

I also feel we need proportional representation and a variety of limits on donations, lobbying, corporate influence and possibly on length of term, to have a much healthier and more inclusive democracy. In that scenario, I would welcome a more right-wing party than we have in the current Liberals, as it is important to have all voices represented in government. But, in that scenario there would be a number of parties involved in the governing process.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
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For those who think I have no idea what I am talking about, or I am talking out of my arse...
Just came across this: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/19/i-dont-like-this-agreement-b-c-teachers-reluctantly-ratify-six-year-deal-with-7-25-salary-increase/?__federated=1 The latter part of the article details teacher comments, and clearly they are not happy with the agreement at all.
And, apparently, they feel that the classroom size and composition issue still hasn't been adequately addressed, which means this is not the end of the issue (though it might be quiet for a while).
That's a National Post Fluff piece that neither supports your point of view or the contrary. My opinion of the orifice where your knowledge came from in the first place is unchanged.

Wouldn't you agree that as a union negotiator posting in threads such as these and not disclosing that detail until afterwards does not cast your point of view in a positive light? You were very quick to shoot down the Govt propaganda while posing the BCTF line as your own thoughts all along.

I did get the impression that you were too in the know during the previous thread and this one.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
That's a National Post Fluff piece that neither supports your point of view or the contrary. My opinion of the orifice where your knowledge came from in the first place is unchanged.

Wouldn't you agree that as a union negotiator posting in threads such as these and not disclosing that detail until afterwards does not cast your point of view in a positive light? You were very quick to shoot down the Govt propaganda while posing the BCTF line as your own thoughts all along.

I did get the impression that you were too in the know during the previous thread and this one.
I'm not BCTF, or even an official union negotiator for that matter. No relationship whatsoever with the BCTF or K-12 system. But, I have been bought into bargaining in one instance with another union outside of that sector as an advisor and have helped craft the union position as a result.

And what I said was something along the lines of it being an agreement that many teachers were not happy with, but would reluctantly accept as the best they can get under the circumstances. That is pretty much the tone of that newspaper piece.
 
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No way in hell is this a good idea - You want a party that's even more right wing!?!? Say goodbye to the revenues generated by legal weed. Say hello to a crackdown on the sex trade. Say hello to cuts to social services and more user fees to offset lowered taxes. Say hello to more homeless people.
You are absolutely correct about the conservative social agenda. I actually do not agree with that.

However I am in the uncomfortable position of being a liberal in respect to social issues but very conservative in respect to fiscal policies.

I am looking for a liberal social but conservative fiscal party. I am not holding my breath on that one.
 

1nitestan

New member
Jun 18, 2013
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Actually if you look at the Green Party agenda, that's actually what they're about- fiscal conservative/social liberal. It's too bad that the hippy stigma of the Greens is still a part of their image.
 

hornygandalf

Active member
Actually if you look at the Green Party agenda, that's actually what they're about- fiscal conservative/social liberal. It's too bad that the hippy stigma of the Greens is still a part of their image.
BC link: http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/6_core_green_principles
If they get their act together, they could make some serious inroads in the next election and possibly hold the balance of power.
 
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