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Supreme Court Justices suggest few defence lawyers would accept niqab during trial

vancity_cowboy

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Justices suggest few defence lawyers would accept niqab during trial
OTTAWA - The lawyer for a woman who wants to wear a niqab while facing her accused rapists fielded pointed questions Thursday from justices of the Supreme Court of Canada. The nature of the questions suggested several high court judges believe wearing the niqab during a trial may compromise the right to a fair trial.

Judges, lawyers and juries have long used changes in facial expressions to gauge a witness's credibility while testifying. A niqab covers the entire face, leaving only the eyes visible, making it difficult for lawyers and juries to read any nuances or changes in expression.

An Ontario woman identified only as N.S. says her Muslim faith dictates that she wear her niqab in public, including during the trial of two men who allegedly sexually assaulted her.

David Butt, the lawyer for N.S., told the justices that denying his client's right to wear a niqab would amount to imposing a special religious penalty on Muslims.

"If she were a man, and if she wore a yarmulke, a turban, or a clerical collar, it would be a no-brainer," Butt said in his opening statement.

Butt ran into a salvo of questions from the justices that suggested they did not agree with him.

Justice Morris Fish joined others on the bench in suggesting there isn't a single defence lawyer who would agree to allowing a witness to testify against their client without their face being clearly visible. "Yes," countered David Butt, N.S.'s lawyer. "Blind lawyers that I know."

"How about seeing lawyers?" Fish replied.

There is no half-way measure that would reconcile the right to an accused to a fair trial and the right of N.S. to cover her face during a trial, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin said.

"Do you wear half a veil?" she asked Butt. "Do you put a screen up? It is very hard to reconcile values that are oppositional."

Two men are accused of raping N.S. as a child. The high court is attempting to chart a course for future cases that would respect an individual's right to religious freedom.

Douglas Usher represented one of the two men accused in the original case. He urged justices to rule against N.S., arguing that trial lawyers depend on the ability to gauge a witness's demeanour through their facial expressions.

"It is the face that determines, in our view, what people are really thinking or feeling when they speak to us," Usher said.

During a preliminary inquiry, a judge ordered N.S. to remove her niqab during testimony. An Ontario Superior court judge overruled the demand.

The Ontario Court of Appeal then sent the case back, offering the judge at the preliminary inquiry a test to apply to the case to determine whether N.S. could be allowed to testify while wearing the veil.

The test included measures to "mitigate the possible impact on the witness's religious freedom," according to Crown lawyer Elise Nakelsky. The measures, to be made available on a case-by-case basis, included excluding the public from the courtroom, using video recordings of testimony and having an all-male or all-female courtroom. "These were not necessarily perfect answers to accommodating the witness in this particular case but might provide some means of accommodating other witnesses in similar circumstances," Nakelsky said. There is an ongoing debate among Muslim community leaders and scholars as to whether the niqab is truly required by the faith.

"There should be no legal presumption that a witness that wears a niqab in a courtroom is doing so for a religious reason," said Tyler Hodgson, intervening lawyer for the Muslim Canadian Congress. The court's ruling will likely have a significant impact on future cases involving religious accommodation in courtrooms.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/justices-suggest-few-defence-lawyers-accept-niqab-during-192252825.html

this is obviously an important and emotional issue. i side with the justices that appear to be opposing the woman's wearing the niqab. i have highlighted a sentence in the article that i think isolates the problem - this is not a issue of religious rights, but it is an issue of the definition of 'public'. it seems to me if the justices ordered that the courtroom be cleared during the period the woman is required to take off her niqab, then she is no longer in 'public', and she wouldn't be violating her religious restrictions - but the officers of the court and the jury would then have the benefit of observing her face to help them to determine the truth of her statements
 

violetblake

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This is a tough situation, but I tend to side with the woman. In cases such as at the airport, I strongly feel women should remove their veils temporarily so that officials can identify them. This is for obvious safety precautions and there's really no way around it, plus it's only for a few minutes at most. However, this case is different. I have never once heard of a witness' facial expression in any crime being brought up for whatever reason. I'm sure it's probably happened, but if it were a very important part of the legal process we would likely hear about it more. That's just what I feel anyway, I suppose I could be wrong. What's important to think of here is the reality that as it is, for your "average" woman the reporting of sexual assault is obscenely low. Do we really need to add more hesitations for women, and let more men get off with sexual assaults? Especially in a culture such as Muslim, where women are often not as empowered as they should be. (I realize that's a generalization but I don't think it's totally inaccurate either). If the issue of seeing a witness' face is really that incredibly important, perhaps I might be swayed, but I have my doubts. I don't think it's as important as having as many women report sexual assaults as possible, and getting rapists off the streets. That's just my two cents.
 

vancity_cowboy

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This is a tough situation, but I tend to side with the woman. In cases such as at the airport, I strongly feel women should remove their veils temporarily so that officials can identify them. This is for obvious safety precautions and there's really no way around it, plus it's only for a few minutes at most. However, this case is different. I have never once heard of a witness' facial expression in any crime being brought up for whatever reason. I'm sure it's probably happened, but if it were a very important part of the legal process we would likely hear about it more. That's just what I feel anyway, I suppose I could be wrong. What's important to think of here is the reality that as it is, for your "average" woman the reporting of sexual assault is obscenely low. Do we really need to add more hesitations for women, and let more men get off with sexual assaults? Especially in a culture such as Muslim, where women are often not as empowered as they should be. (I realize that's a generalization but I don't think it's totally inaccurate either). If the issue of seeing a witness' face is really that incredibly important, perhaps I might be swayed, but I have my doubts. I don't think it's as important as having as many women report sexual assaults as possible, and getting rapists off the streets. That's just my two cents.
i agree it's a tough situation. i posted in a thread not too long ago about how sexy i found those niqabs to be - they obviously emphasize the eyes, and the women wearing them know it too, and they can communicate VOLUMES with a glance - or a brazen stare - whatever lol. as peaceguy said, i guess i'll have to wait for the decision
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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Of course you can gain information from facial expression, ever play poker?
Why not just have trials over the phone?

Can I wear my poker hoodie and shades in court???
Of course not. Only counts if you believe in the spaghetti monster.
 

violetblake

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Jul 24, 2011
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Thanks for the info alinburnaby. I understand what you're saying, and then I suppose I agree that they should show their face to the lawyers, but perhaps to only them if possible? Essentially they should make it as easy as possible for women to report a sexual assault and testify, but still keeping with necessary legal protocol.
 

HankQuinlan

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Respecting someone's religion is fine in principle (although, deep down, I don't respect anyone's belief in fantasy) but religious belief and cultural beliefs are basically the same thing. When people come to live in a Western democracy, they have to accept some of the principles in our laws. You can't abuse women, you can't force your children to accept your old-world crap if they don't want to, and you can't cover your face when you go to our public schools, get on an airplane, apply for a driver's license -- or testify in court.

i couldn't care less if a Sikh cop wears a turban, or teachers wear yamulkas, whatever, but some lines need to be drawn.

The woman in question in this trial has a driver's license, so she is willing to compromise on some things. If she can hide her face from the pricks she's testifying against, so should all other women be able to in a similar situation.
 

edmontonsubbie

Edmontonsubbie
Apr 22, 2006
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uh...Edmonton.
I agree with your comments. Tough call but if the room is cleared and it's. It's not public then it shouldn't violate her rights.. It's a bad precedent to set if it is allowed as some could use it to decide decietful in court in the future..
you have much to learn grasshopperette....but then so do I. You are right...precedent rules.

Do you offer Domme sessions?

most respectfully,

eddie
 

edmontonsubbie

Edmontonsubbie
Apr 22, 2006
1,307
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uh...Edmonton.
you have much to learn grasshopperette....but then so do I. You are right...precedent rules.

Do you offer Domme sessions?

most respectfully,

eddie
sorry about that sudden change of topic...but the question stands. I love to award power away to those who are competent. My thin slicing observations of this board...indicate that you are a good bet. Plus you have a wicked ass...

I promise not to top from the bottom.

most respectfully,

eddie
 
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