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state has no obligation to protect prostitutes

susi

Sassy Strumpette
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Jun 27, 2008
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@the Meat Market!!!lol
KIRK MAKIN — JUSTICE REPORTER

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Published Wednesday, Mar. 09, 2011 8:49PM EST

Last updated Wednesday, Mar. 09, 2011 9:07PM EST

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tes-ottawa-to-argue-at-appeal/article1935992/

Sex-trade workers voluntarily enter a world known for violence, drugs and death, the federal government will argue at a June showdown over the embattled prostitution laws.

In a legal brief filed with the Ontario Court of Appeal, government lawyers argue that the state does not owe prostitutes a promise of safety if they choose a profession that is fraught with danger.

The law does not oblige individuals to engage in an activity that could risk their security,” it states. “It is the practice of prostitution in any venue, exaggerated by efforts to avoid the law, that is the source of the risk to prostitutes.”

The historic test case has burgeoned into a five-day appeal that will be heard by a specially convened panel of five judges. They will decide whether Ontario Superior Court Justice Susan Himel was correct last year when she struck down the laws governing pimping, keeping a brothel and communicating for the purposes of prostitution.

The federal brief insists that Judge Himel was wrong to suggest that individuals are entitled to engage in prostitution, and that Parliament “is not obliged to minimize hindrances and maximize safety for those that do so contrary to the law.”

However, sex-trade workers and advocates who argued for the law to be struck down maintain that since prostitution is legal, it is dangerously hypocritical to make it impossible for sex-trade workers to operate in safety.

In her judgment, Judge Himel agreed with them. She said that laws set up to protect prostitutes endanger their safety, forcing them to engage in hasty transactions conducted in shady locations.

Last fall, Court of Appeal Justice Marc Rosenberg stayed the effect of Judge Himel’s order until April. The stay was recently extended until the hearing in June.

Alan Young, a law professor who succeeded in having the prostitution law struck down, said that he agreed reluctantly to the extension.

“Justice Himel agreed with our argument that these laws endanger women, so in principle we are fundamentally opposed to the idea of allowing this law to continue in force by agreeing to a stay of judgment,” Prof. Young said in an interview.

“However, with our limited resources we need to pick our battles,” he said. “It is far more prudent to put our energy into preparing for the June appeal so that we can get rid of this bad law forever, instead of fighting over a stay which will only decide whether this law should continue in force for the next two months.”

The appeal has attracted a collection of would-be intervenors who are scheduled to argue Friday that they should be included in the appeal hearing. They include the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, the B.C. Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network.

Two other organizations that work with hundreds of sex-trade workers – Maggies: Toronto Sex Workers Action Project; and Prostitutes of Ottawa/Gatineau Work Education and Resists (POWER) – argue in legal briefs to the court that they ought to be included since they alone actually represent the people most affected by the laws.

Maggie’s position is that “all consensual sex work is legitimate,” the brief said. “The criminalization of prostitution, in all of its forms, creates barriers to health, safety, status and social well-being for women in the sex trade.

“Indoor work sites are the most economically viable and secure sites for women in the sex industry,” it added. “There are few other legal professions, if any, where individuals are forced to choose between their physical well-being and legal status.”

Lawyers for POWER maintain that personal autonomy is at stake.

“POWER will argue that the challenged laws interfere with sex workers’ ability to make fundamental choices in respect of their bodies and their employment, the latter being an essential component of a person’s identity, personal dignity, self-worth and emotional well-being,” its brief said.

The group argued that prospective intervenors who support the laws insist on “moralizing” about how prostitution is sinful and amoral.

“POWER’s view is that there is nothing inherently degrading about sex work,” the brief stated. “It is the criminalization and stigmatization of sex work that has diminished the dignity of the trade.”

The federal brief insists that the prostitution laws survived a challenge in a 1990 reference case that ruled out reconsideration of its constitutionality.

It also argued that prostitution harms communities by attracting the drug trade and underworld characters. “People no longer feel safe in their neighbourhood, children are exposed to johns, pimps and prostitutes, and to the public display of sex for sale,” it said.

The government disputed an argument that decriminalization would get prostitutes off the streets and into regulated brothels, where they could practise their trade in relative comfort and safety.

“The police, experiential and expert evidence was that prostitutes are physically at risk regardless of the venue of the initial encounter with the john, or the location in which the act of prostitution takes place,” the brief said.
 

old pooner

New member
Apr 6, 2006
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If the state is not required to protect people enterring into inherintly dangerous occupations, does that include police officers and fire fighters as well?
 

sensualsixty

Active member
Nov 26, 2007
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Rational

Susi and old pooner are being rational - maybe our government should get clued in by their comments.

sensualsixty
 

Pillowtalk

Banned
Feb 11, 2010
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The govt argument is so flawed it hardly bears debate lol. When you build a case on such a flimsy set up, I hope they don't think anyone is really going to have a hard time arguing against them.
 

finchs

New member
Feb 20, 2010
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I am not only disgusted by the logic our supreme rulers use, but also by how this kind of travesty of justice can be ignored by the populace.

If these are the people that are making moral decisions for me then I should realize it's time to fight.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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Yet, as a nation, we seem to be supporting them more and more (at least according to polls). I believe a coalition should be formed -- before or after the next election -- of all the parties that are opposed to "The Harper Government's" policies. Why is "coalition" such a dirty word? That is exactly the situation in the UK, Ireland, and who knows where else. They don't seem shocked by the concept.
 

the old maxx50

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Dec 22, 2010
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These ambiguous stand because people like us that see prostitutes and are just everyday people , say nothing.. We are labeled johns and immoral, along with drug dealer, pimps , rapist, pedefils , perverts and what ever else they can get a way with calling us and the the ladies that work in the sex trade..

As long as we stay quiet .. then we agree with them and the law..
.. It is not that very few escorts and Sp wont stand up and say .. My name is ________ and i work as a escort .. but how many guys will stand up and say .. i am not a john .. my name is _________ and is see escorts .. i have a 9 to 5 job .. or i am a CEO , or a Doctor, lawyer , member of parliament, a contractor , a solder .. and any number of other professions .

Sure the husband with a wife and 3 kids .. won't be heard from ... he will agree with his wife that thinks . whores are immoral and destroy marriages .. when it is choses and attitudes that destroy marriages

And the argument that the prostitutes are drug users and drunks and sick.. sorry society has that at all level .. and in greater quantities then those that are in the sex trade . they just have the money to and social acceptability hide it better.

The prostitution laws are wrong on so many levels not just because it make it unsafe for SP .. but it is unconstitutional and restrict the basic rights and freedoms of individuals .. who have not commited any crime but only exercised their right of freedom of chose
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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Hank, Hank - We are also not bankrupt like Ireland is.

I really don't think the Harper Government will win with their appeal. There is now too much law that opposes their brief.

However, I don't think a Liberal Government will change prostitution laws for the better without a loss by the Harper government at the appeal and then a loss at the Supreme Court of Canada. We do have to remember which government wrote the current laws. So, on this issue, I will anticipate the eventual ruling of the Supreme Court and I won't be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
The smug moral hyposcrisy of the current pricks just pisses me off so much. The fact that there is no decent opposition is a failure of our political system, and it is our fault for letting it happen. Just being not as bad as most other countries isn't enough for a country with the potential of ours.

A coalition would be much the same as a Harper minority -- nothing much would happen to screw up anything too badly -- but at least we wouldn't have to put up with their preaching on moral issues. My vote in the next election will be the same as in the last one -- a strategic one against the chance of a Harper majority, rather than for any other party.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Hank, Hank - We are also not bankrupt like Ireland is.

I really don't think the Harper Government will win with their appeal. There is now too much law that opposes their brief.

However, I don't think a Liberal Government will change prostitution laws for the better without a loss by the Harper government at the appeal and then a loss at the Supreme Court of Canada. We do have to remember which government wrote the current laws. So, on this issue, I will anticipate the eventual ruling of the Supreme Court and I won't be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
They likely won't win their appeal. They are correct in that they don't have an obligation to protect people who choose to dangerous things, but this particular situation isn't about that. What they overlook is that is that they have put laws in place that force people who are doing something that is not prohibited into potentially dangerous situations that could be largely avoided (or mitigated) if these laws were not in place. That is why they will lose.

But, the probable long term outcome is that they will simply make prostitution itself illegal. Once they do that, then the laws regarding solicitation, bawdy houses and avails can be reintroduced without the constitutional problem those laws currently have. Remember, these are the Conservatives we are talking about, they are NOT going to just let it slide, their social-conservative electoral base won't stand for it.
 

island-guy

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Sep 27, 2007
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or soldiers?
While I don't disagree with your underlying point, the examples of police, firemen and soldiers are not the right ones to chose.

The state's obligations to people in those professions stems mostly from the fact that the state is their employer.

The state is not the employer of SPs.

Find better examples.

7-11 night shift clerk in a bad neighbourhood maybe?

Coal miner?

Highrise construction worker?
 

island-guy

New member
Sep 27, 2007
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For those blaming Harper for this, you are wrong.

Were any of the laws in question passed when Harper was PM? No.

How many years of majority governments did the Liberals have when these laws were on the books? Hmm 20? 30?

Did the Liberals, who had the majority in both the house and the senate, do ANYTHING about the laws in those 20-30 years? No.

Would the Liberals, if part of a coalition and in power do anything about those laws once they didn't need the talking points to try to make the government in power look bad? NO.

So, the BEST thing that can happen for SPs is for us to continue to have a minority Conservative government, as it keeps these issues active and not just quietly pushed into a back corner and ignored.

Of course, the opposition isn't doing much of a job of championing this particular issue even now.

So, if you want another 20-30 years of the status quo with no changes, then a Liberal majority is what you want to have to achieve that.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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For those blaming Harper for this, you are wrong.
I don't blame (or credit) Harper for anything important about the current state of our country. I hate him (and his band of know-nothings) for his attitude, and I fear the results if they ever get a majority in parliament -- they will never have the majority support of Canadians. The fact that they could get a majority in Parliament and fuck up our country -- while the majority of voters oppose them -- is what is wrong with our political system.
 

myselftheother

rubatugtug
Dec 2, 2004
1,275
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I don't blame (or credit) Harper for anything important about the current state of our country. I hate him (and his band of know-nothings) for his attitude, and I fear the results if they ever get a majority in parliament -- they will never have the majority support of Canadians. The fact that they could get a majority in Parliament and fuck up our country -- while the majority of voters oppose them -- is what is wrong with our political system.
This is why it is so important to vote! Funny, as I post this there is an attack ad on tv paid by the Conservatives. Majority of Canadians don't vote, most of the younger adults don't vote. We as a people have to get involved in making our opinions count, making issues matter.

Everyone, no matter your profession deserves to work in a safe, regulated situation. If it's dangerous or hazardous, where's the safety measures?
 

maroonedsailor

lookin for a liveaboard
Jun 10, 2007
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The entire reason for the existence of any society IS to protect its members. In a village of a hundred people this is self evident. In a society of millions it must be legislated - how fucking sad is that?
 

SeekSteadyRegSP

Active member
Feb 9, 2005
773
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KIRK MAKIN — JUSTICE REPORTER

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Published Wednesday, Mar. 09, 2011 8:49PM EST

Last updated Wednesday, Mar. 09, 2011 9:07PM EST

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tes-ottawa-to-argue-at-appeal/article1935992/

Sex-trade workers voluntarily enter a world known for violence, drugs and death, the federal government will argue at a June showdown over the embattled prostitution laws.

In a legal brief filed with the Ontario Court of Appeal, government lawyers argue that the state does not owe prostitutes a promise of safety if they choose a profession that is fraught with danger.

The law does not oblige individuals to engage in an activity that could risk their security,” it states. “It is the practice of prostitution in any venue, exaggerated by efforts to avoid the law, that is the source of the risk to prostitutes.”

.
.
.

Objecting to the "Ottawa isn't obligated to protect prostitutes" stance isn't very sensible.

Cabbies are probably in greater danger at work than are prostitutes, and Ottawa is clearly not obligated to protect cabbies.

The underlying sense in the potential legal alterations relating to prostitution is that there is ongoing economic discrimination perpetrated by the legal system.

Prostitutes working inside and using Backpage or the like to find clients are much safer at work than are their counterparts who work for less and in far more dangerous locations outside and in the streets.

So this isn't about the government especially "protecting" anybody, it is about leveling the playing field for all parties involved!!
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Quoted from the Globe and Mail article:

“A law that prevents the open, public display of women as available for hire for sexual acts targets more than subjective moral taste,” the Crown brief states. “Such a law recognizes that exposure to this type of conduct has the potential to foment attitudes which are offensive to the dignity of women and children.”
Ummm....how do they figure that this involves the dignity of children? Are they just throwing that in spuriously as a "OMG! Save the children" hail mary to somehow validate what is otherwise an intellectually bankrupt argument? We are doing it for the children, everyone likes children right? If you oppose us it is because you want to hurt the children! Bad Judge! Bad! Bad! Think of the children!

Essentially their argument is analogous to this: We don't like people driving cars, but driving cars isn't illegal and we don't want to make it illegal, so instead we will make it illegal to drive cars on roads. Well, if people drive their cars along the sidewalks or through people's backyards, that is fine. Sure, doing that is pretty damned dangerous but you know what, driving cars in general is somewhat dangerous too. So, Judge, your finding that our laws are actually placing drivers in danger just doesn't make sense. I mean, they should just stop their legal activity of driving right? Problem solved!

But excuse us if we are too moronic to understand that we are replacing the moderate danger of driving on road with the extreme danger of driving on the sidewalk. This clearly is not our fault, nuh uh, its the drivers fault.

It just boggles the mind that a supposedly educated person could make this sort of argument with a straight face.
 
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