Snowden, your opinions?

normisanas · Jul 28, 2013

I'm just going to blast off my opinion here on the Snowden affair, would like to hear your own.... I'm sure you have differing opinions.

I think he's one hell of a naive person to believe the Constitution is above the government.... it is not. Without the government, the Constitution is dead. That also means all the B.S. about the overthrowing the tyranny of government guaranteed by the 2nd Ammendment, it cannot be allowed to happen because the government will crush any challenge to it, it will never dissolve itself because it is told to respect the 2nd Ammendment.

So he really thought that somehow the government would divest itself of all wrong-doing and right its wrongs, obey the Constitution, and make him a hero? That's like thinking an SP will ever fuck you for free because she thinks you're a really nice guy.

I wonder what the dialog is between China and Russia when China made the lame excuse of it did and passed off the hot potato for Russia to deal with. You'd think that the Chinese, after immediately mirroring his hard drives and truth-drugging all the info out of him, then giving him a heavy dose of Rohypnol (the date-rape drug) to make him forget it all happened, would have just held him in detention in some unknown place and used his info to barter with the Russians, and the Americans. After all, doesn't China have the US over a barrel economically? But anyways, the Russians are treating this like a big burden, and if that is really true, I wonder how they feel about the Chinese passing him off to them?

Kudos to Putin who said they have never given anyone up and never will in the future. That's the kind of rock-solid brinkmanship I like to see out of a statesman. Now emboldened, he even allows the passing of rules outlawing gays - and I think the reason for that is the same reason the Pussy Riot were jailed - the Russian government will not put up with any form of social subversion that could contest its power - especially as its citizens become wealthier.

Now the US declares that he will not face the penalty and that he will not be tortured. That's quite the statement to make, implying that torture was ever in question. That's how badly American reputation has fallen. But what a joke that is, sure, he'll go to civilian court but immediately be found guilty of treason and espionage, not tortured yet thrown into lifetime solitary confinement without the 1 hour a day break for fear he'll tell more people any secrets he knows. He won't ever be allowed to speak to anyone, not even loved ones. No sir, that's not torture. I read that people in solitary go absolutely insane by their 3rd year.

So after getting all the info out of Snowden, what does Russia gain from keeping him? If they declare they never give anyone up, thus removing the possibility of prisoner/spy exchanges with the US in the future, what could they possibly gain from keeping him? Is sticking it to the US that wise a thing to do? I have no idea on what the possible motives could be, maybe some of you have some..... do please tell.

richrad · Jul 28, 2013

The US is a crazy country right now. They are a pissed-off mad dog unleashed. Snowden is just an embarrassment adding insult to injury. The world doesn't change much after all this. People are dumb, and American people are no exception. They are going to forget all about this in a short while and continue on with their fraudulent ideologies.

We are all here in this world for just a short while. Some people want to fight for their ideologies, others just want to lead a simple life. All the best to him. I guess that's all I can say about this.

InnocentBoy · Jul 28, 2013

Yes the spineless little shit that gave up his job, his life and everyone around him so he could play hide and go seek on the other side of the world.

haymitch said:
Two thoughts. First, NASA is a space agency. NSA is the agency in question here, very different.

Second, if you think Obama didn't know about and endorse NSA's programs, you need to give your head a shake, he won't confront the intelligence community because he was directing the intelligence community. Is Snowden a traitor or a hero? He is certainly in violation of the agreements he signed when he took his job, his Non Disclosure Agreement and his National Security Agreement. His flight now is less about exposing the US than it is about avoiding accountability. If he wanted to expose the whole thing, get the assurance of a fair trial and then come back to the USA for his day in court. that's a hero. What he's doing now seems like the actions of a spineless little shit. Just saying.

Robert Upndown · Jul 28, 2013

He is a traitor plain and simple

normisanas · Jul 28, 2013

haymitch said:
Is Snowden a traitor or a hero? He is certainly in violation of the agreements he signed when he took his job, his Non Disclosure Agreement and his National Security Agreement. His flight now is less about exposing the US than it is about avoiding accountability. If he wanted to expose the whole thing, get the assurance of a fair trial and then come back to the USA for his day in court. that's a hero. What he's doing now seems like the actions of a spineless little shit. Just saying.

Well he is in contravention of the contract he signed, and he broke the law. Yet there is supposed to be a greater law that supercedes all laws in the United States, and that is what is in the Constitution. I for one don't believe in it however, but to say he should face his day in court is to say he should go to a court to face illegitimate charges. Perhaps what he should have done is gotten a lawyer instead of going to another country and spilling secrets, and with that lawyer he should have started an action against the government. He might have even won, and there would be a high chance he wouldn't even be in custody during the case because he would have broken no laws.

yazoo · Jul 28, 2013

True, but whistle blowers like him have their use. What many of us have suspected all along has been confirmed to be true. The US has been humiliated for being the hypocrites that they are. And finally democratic representatives in an alleged democracy are actually analyzing and debating how the government operates.

The bulk phone records gathering authorization passed - but only by 15 votes after the first serious debate on security vs. freedom since the Patriot Act.

The ends don't always justify the means, but sometimes they do.

kso_wiz · Jul 28, 2013

True, it's more in the Causes and Necessity for Taking Up Arms. This is a corrupt government, that has been spiraling out of control. All he did was reveal that the US is spying on it's own citizens. If we had a press corp, we would have known. If congress was doing its job of oversite, we would have known.

Miss*Bijou · Jul 29, 2013

.
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“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

“Protest beyond the law is not a departure from democracy; it is absolutely essential to it.”
― Howard Zinn

“If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law”
― Henry David Thoreau

“If patriotism were defined, not as blind obedience to government, not as submissive worship to flags and anthems, but rather as love of one's country, one's fellow citizens (all over the world), as loyalty to the principles of justice and democracy, then patriotism would require us to disobey our government, when it violated those principles.”
― Howard Zinn

“There comes a time when silence is betrayal.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

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normisanas · Jul 29, 2013

haymitch said:
Fight his case in the court and prove all he is right. That would be heroic and noble.

But you're as naive as he is if you think he'd have a fair day in court or have any real chance to prove he is right.

rickoshadows · Jul 29, 2013

haymitch said:
With the media attention this case has? No chance the govt could black bag this. He'd get a day in court.

Bullshit, The evidence against Snowden will be classified and only the trial Judge and Attorneys will have access. If the trial is accessible to the public at all (highly doubtful), the public will not be able to see/hear enough to form any opinion other than what the Government gives them.

normisanas · Jul 29, 2013

haymitch said:
With every media outlet in the country and around the world filing constant FOI requests? The genie is out of the bottle here.

Do you hear what you're saying??? Freedom of Information requests for information on a case directly related to National Security and you think these are going to be accepted? I'm with Rickoshadows here, if there is going to be a trial, it will never be public.

Miss*Bijou · Jul 29, 2013

Robert Upndown said:
He is a traitor plain and simple

This is the definition of traitor:

trai·tor - noun

1. a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.

2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.

Snowden did betray his employers (private contractor & NSA) however I don't see how he betrayed his country. Is that what you're claiming?

On the other hand, one can easily show the NSA betrayed the government and the people of the United States' trust, which also means they betrayed their country.

So who's the traitor?

Going by either of those definitions, I'd say it wasn't Snowden who betrayed his country.

Those of you who say he's a traitor: Do you also consider Daniel Ellsberg (who leaked the Pentagon Papers) a traitor? (This is an interesting read)

Miss*Bijou · Jul 29, 2013

haymitch said:
A slew of quotes that say what he did in the first place was noble. Ok, I can agree with that. Every single one of those guys would have stuck around and fought the law in the courts, not run around and hid in the Moscow airport like a coward. If he is noble as he says, get on the first US bound aircraft and have his lawyer and a news crew with him. Fight his case in the court and prove all he is right. That would be heroic and noble. Looking to a south american asylum or hiding in Russia is the act of someone who knows he is not noble, but instead a traitor or worse.

Have you not been paying attention the last decade + ?
I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think the chances of getting a fair trial, a sentence that fits the offence and an unbiased or just resolution are near zero.

Just one example: Bradley Manning.

His verdict will be known tomorrow and if he is found guilty, he could be facing a life sentence, even the death penalty. (The very minimum he will get is 10 years for the lesser charges to which he has already plead guilty.) The incredible value of what he leaked and his genuine and noble motivation for doing so aren't any help to him then, as they have not been to any help to him over the last 3 years since he's been detained, the first year of it under conditions that qualify as cruel and unusual punishment. I'm sure he'd pick Moscow airport if given the choice. In fact, I'm pretty sure you would to.

***

"In 2003, two dozen or so CIA agents kidnapped an Egyptian citizen from a street in Milan where he was living after Italy granted him asylum from persecution by the US-allied Mubarak regime. The CIA then rendered their kidnapped victim back to Egypt where he was interrogated and tortured. Italian authorities criminally charged the CIA agents with kidnapping, and after the US refused to turn them over for trial, they were convicted in abstentia. One of them, Milan CIA station chief Robert Lady, was sentenced to several years in prison. I wrote about that case, and US behavior in it, several months ago: here.

Lady ended up in Panama, and when the Italians learned of this, they requested his extradition to Italy. The US government intervened and applied significant pressure to Panamanian officials, who, yesterday, predictably released Lady and put him on a plane back to the US. The next time the US lectures the world about the rule of law and need for accountability, I'm sure this incident will be on many people's minds. It should be.

Also: for those in official Washington - including its press corps - who have been demanding that Edward Snowden come and "face the music" of the charges against him, will you be demanding the same of CIA official Robert Lady, who - unlike Snowden - has committed serious crimes (kidnapping) and has been convicted of those crimes? "

Source

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"... the Obama administration's top national security official, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, outright lied to the Senate about NSA programs. And yet .. not only isn't he being prosecuted for that crime - as much of a crime as anything Edward Snowden is accused of doing - but he still has his job. That, of course, is because the"law" does not apply to high-level Washington officials and DC's National Security State is an accountability-free zone. But the law that makes Clapper's behavior a felony is clear and concise, and can be read here."

Source

***

***

So..... Where's the outrage over the US' actions to protect and prevent the deportation of individuals like these?
Where are the calls for criminal charges, or at least for an investigation, of the NSA's illegal spying of people around the world?

Where are the criminal charges against those who authorized and those who followed orders to murder the civilians, among them 2 journalists, and injured children, in the events depicted in the "Collateral Murder" video that was leaked by Bradley Manning?

Where are the criminal charges against those responsible for the torture of thousands of people that have been in US custody during this endless "war on terror", for the ongoing illegal detention of hundreds of men -of children, even- for years, some of them over a decade, as they still sit at Guantanamo despite the US having stated they would not be tried or charged for anything? Where are the charges for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al for various war crimes?

Where are the criminal charges against Obama for his drone program, which has been assassinating thousands of people, some of them American citizens (one of those, a 16 year old), none of whom were ever tried or convicted in any court, let alone advised of the charges against them or given an opportunity to defend themselves - and of which a large number of the dead have been civilians, many of them women and children?

When are the crooks and criminals of Wall Street who made billions as they almost brought the global economy to collapse, going to be brought to justice and face the music? Not only were they bailed out while millions of their victims lost their homes, their savings and went bankrupt, they went right back to business as usual and are getting richer as they work towards the next crisis, which is predicted to be even more devastating! Not only were they not punished, they were rewarded with millions and the opportunity to do it again!

I could keep going but I think I've made my point.. (Let me know if you need links for any of the above btw. I will be happy to provide.) Where are the charges, the revoked passports, the bringing down of planes of other countries presidents (sorry but that was insane!) and the tremendous effort bringing all these people to face justice?? *sound of crickets*

In comparison, how completely inconsequential and low severity are some thoughtfully chosen leaks of information about program that was already suspected but lacked the evidence provided by Snowden and that most agree was wrong to keep hidden from the public?

I mean, really. No one's going to convince me that Edward Snowden's "crime" is really the most serious issue the US should be dealing with or taking to the courts. Come on now. Does that not sound completely absurd to you? Because it definitely does to me. So sorry but until all these people are brought to justice and seriously prosecuted or deported, I can't take the outrage over Snowden seriously because it is nothing but outrageous hypocrisy from Obama and friends...

Miss*Bijou · Jul 29, 2013

rickoshadows said:
Bullshit, The evidence against Snowden will be classified and only the trial Judge and Attorneys will have access. If the trial is accessible to the public at all (highly doubtful), the public will not be able to see/hear enough to form any opinion other than what the Government gives them.

normisanas said:
Do you hear what you're saying??? Freedom of Information requests for information on a case directly related to National Security and you think these are going to be accepted? I'm with Rickoshadows here, if there is going to be a trial, it will never be public.

juniper · Jul 29, 2013

Going on as you do, Miss Bijou, about how the USA fights and opposes terror, you are so furious and so continually critical. And just how do you propose that a sane government secure its citizens against terror and terrorists in what has become known as asymetrical warfare? I'd really like to hear a positive, constructive and well thought out response from you.

Miss*Bijou · Jul 30, 2013

juniper said:
Going on as you do, Miss Bijou, about how the USA fights and opposes terror, you are so furious and so continually critical. And just how do you propose that a sane government secure its citizens against terror and terrorists in what has become known as asymetrical warfare? I'd really like to hear a positive, constructive and well thought out response from you.

First, there is zero evidence that this kind of widespread spying on people's communications and all this has been going on in secret has ANY impact on security or there would not have been a bombing in Boston a few months ago. Even though one of the brothers was actually flagged to the FBI by the Russians to begin with, all of those spying powers didn't do a thing to catch them before the bombing. The Times Square bomber that was spotted before the bomb went off? Not the work of any intelligence agency but of an observant taxi driver who noticed something off and alerted police!

So what big plots have been foiled by the super spying powers of the NSA? No one's provided much.. Pretty much all of the few cases of "terrorist" plots have been the result of undercover informants who coax, convince and provide the weapons or materials to troubled but usually otherwise harmless young, single, muslim males. Definitely NOT the work of the NSA.

.. the Sept. 11 attacks were an anomaly in an overall gradual decline in the number of terrorist attacks since the 1970s, according to the Global Terrorism Database, one of the most authoritative sources of terrorism statistics, which is maintained by a consortium of researchers and based at the University of Maryland.

Since 2001, the number of fatalities in terrorist attacks has reached double digits in only one year, 2009, when an Army psychiatrist killed 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., officials say. That was a sharp contrast with the 1970s, by far the most violent decade since the tracking began in 1970, the database shows.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/17/us/bombings-end-decade-without-terror-in-us.html?_r=0

(This one has an even better title: Americans Are as Likely to Be Killed by Their Own Furniture as by Terrorism - LOL)

Repeat after me: There is no boogey man. There is no boggey man....

I think that's pretty constructive.

On the other hand, what do you suggest civilians in Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other locations that are regularly visited by American drones do for their security? Maybe the NSA could use all of its numerous resources on helping these people figure how to stay alive when the drones pulverize half of their village. That would keep them busy doing something useful, don't you agree? (Is that what you meant by asymetrical?)

Well, that's my suggestion. Unfortunately I'm not the one receiving a salary to figure these things out. But I'm sure someone who is could come up with some positive answer. Me? I don't think it's my responsibility to make anything sound positive when I don't think it's positive at all. No offence, just saying. I just don't see why I would need to provide that when there are people getting paid a lot of money who *should* be doing that. No?

Oh but actually, just thought of something positive and constructive: they could close down Guantanamo Bay and release all of the innocent men who are cleared for release but still there anyway. That would be a really positive step, especially for the families and children some of these men haven't even met! If that's not positive, then nothing is.. What do you think? (Getting the hell outta Afghanistan would be quite positive overall as well. I have more ideas but I doubt you really want to hear them.)

normisanas · Jul 30, 2013

juniper said:
Going on as you do, Miss Bijou, about how the USA fights and opposes terror, you are so furious and so continually critical. And just how do you propose that a sane government secure its citizens against terror and terrorists in what has become known as asymetrical warfare? I'd really like to hear a positive, constructive and well thought out response from you.

I don't speak for her, but my opinion on her attitude towards all this is that she only has moral outrage at the hypocrisy of the US government, that it says it stands for this and that, and promptly acts the opposite at all times.

Now nobody can really debate the fact, which is absolute truth, that the United States has been doing all this and doing all this for a long time. You think it is justified to defend its citizens, and she MAY or MAY NOT think it is justfied (I think equally), but I think what she has a problem with is only the hypocrisy.

As for myself, I think it is justified, and I think it is justified to even the extent that the definition of "terrorism" according to the United States is completely arbitrary - if it is against the government, it is terrorism, and if the government does similar things, it is not terrorism (ie: arming rebels to overthrow some other government, and if that's not classical terrorism I don't know what is). I also applaud the US government for being able to fool its own citizens, and indeed the world, that it is this great moral bastion and that it stands behind this piece of worthless paper it calls the Constitution. It is just fodder to keep to the citizens in line and loyal to the country. What a good job it's done.... why look at the moral outrage it creates in people with principles like Miss Bijou, and it is principles like these that lead to the naivity of people like Snowden.

The real test for the US Constitution is the 2nd Ammendment, to arm the citizenry to overthrow a tyrannical government. No portion of the US government will stand by that and dissolve itself should a citizen ever convince it that it is being tyrannical. The 2nd Ammendment therefore is bullshit, and if that is bullshit, then exposing the government for its tyrannical acts by whistle blowers like Snowden is just an act of futility. The paper is worthless and always has been.

Lesson learned: there is no government in the world that represents "free citizens". All governments are tyrannical and must resort to tyranny to keep order. All Bill of Rights, Constitutions, etc., are part of a propaganda machine. Whistle blowers who are noble and wear their heart on their sleeves are just a by-product of the propaganda machine and nothing more - for what they stood for was in reality just fiction that was created by the government.

Robert Upndown · Jul 30, 2013

An interesting take on the issue
Edward Snowden's not the story. The fate of the internet is

yazoo · Jul 30, 2013

Spot on. And it why I have moved my personal 'cloud storage' to mega. I think that cloud based solutions will only thrive if the encryption is strong and the keys are generated and held only by the customer.

Miss*Bijou · Jul 30, 2013

haymitch said:
Manning was found not guilty of the most serious charge, He PLED guilty to many of the other charges. He broke his oath, violated the law. He deserves to do time. The material he released was largely useless anyway and is essentially forgotten now, bet he feels like a real hero now.

Yes, he was found not guilty of the most serious charge of aiding the enemy, which is the one that carried a possible life sentence (or death sentence but the prosecution had not asked for it) however he was found guilty of several other charges in addition to those lesser charges he had plead guilty to.

I'm really not sure where you get the impression that "it's all been forgotten"? Where have you been? Maybe you never learned of the information he released and don't like to question authorities and therefore have no use for the truth, but why would you assume everyone else feels that way. There is a huge amount of that information that will remain relevant, useful and nowhere near forgotten for a great number of people. I'm astounded you can even make that claim. Do you really think the government would have been so bloodthirsty had the info he leaked been of no value and so embarrassing because it showed how much they had lied?

And what's with the snark about feeling like a hero? Is it really difficult to understand some people act according to their own conscience? I find these sort of smears, such as oh he wanted fame, or money or to be a hero or this or that..so absurd. Whistleblowers lose their careers, their life, stability, income..everything. On top of that they're hunted and faced with years in prison and in the case of Bradley Manning, even torture - yet people accuse them of doing it for their own narcissistic reasons? That's so absurd. What are your big accomplishments that make you qualified to say anything about people who lose it all as a result of acting on their conscience?

I mean, seriously. I don't understand that attitude. You can disagree with his actions but to sneer like that when your idea of a hero, i guess, is to follow the rules and keep your mouth shut when you see crimes being committed and thousands of people tortured and killed needlessly? Is that it? Great values, you've got! Give your head a shake. I guess that's really all you can do? Sneer and smear without providing an ounce of facts or any argument. That's the way it is 'just because' you say so? Because I think my response to you (the first one) was respectful and reasonable but you just basically repeated the same about Bradley Manning without addressing my points.

Bradley Manning is 1000 times the human being any of these bankers, war criminals, NSA spies and liars will ever be. That you can defend a system that rewards murder, fraud, corruption and theft on a huge scale while it disproportionately and harshly punishes/torture someone who wants people to know the truth about what's being done in their names - is beyond my understanding. Sorry, that just doesn't compute and I'm not sure why anyone would be proud to defend that system and attack anyone who challenges it. But anyway, since you haven't even provided any of your reasoning I'm not likely to ever understand it either.

You should really spend the time to listen to him in his own words:
https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/...es-leaked-audio-of-bradley-mannings-statement

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