Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency for Williams
- Thread starter Slowrider
- Start date
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Hardatwork
Did Arnold's political ambition play into this decision?
I’m not upset by Mr. Williams dying by the death penalty. I’m usually in favour of the death penalty and would like to see it brought back to Canada for special circumstances (hello Willy Pickton and Clifford Olsen), but I’m curious if Governor Arnold’s decision to not grant clemency for Williams was at all motivated by his desire to seek a higher office, whether it’s in the US Senate, Congress or White House (I know that laws need to change and this is a long shot, but it is a long stated desire of Schwarzenegger’s to become President). It seems that a high execution rate is an election platform for some politicians (hello Bush brothers) to prove that they are tough on crime.
Does anyone else think there might be some truth to that and if so, do you have a problem with it? Personally I do, because there’s the chance that you might not get a truly fair review. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but what about lesser profile cases, where the inmate might be worth more as a number in a column than as a human being?
I’m not upset by Mr. Williams dying by the death penalty. I’m usually in favour of the death penalty and would like to see it brought back to Canada for special circumstances (hello Willy Pickton and Clifford Olsen), but I’m curious if Governor Arnold’s decision to not grant clemency for Williams was at all motivated by his desire to seek a higher office, whether it’s in the US Senate, Congress or White House (I know that laws need to change and this is a long shot, but it is a long stated desire of Schwarzenegger’s to become President). It seems that a high execution rate is an election platform for some politicians (hello Bush brothers) to prove that they are tough on crime.
Does anyone else think there might be some truth to that and if so, do you have a problem with it? Personally I do, because there’s the chance that you might not get a truly fair review. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but what about lesser profile cases, where the inmate might be worth more as a number in a column than as a human being?
Is it possible?
I wondered about this - but in what has been a "blue" state for a long time, Arny may have actually garnered more favor with the Dems had he spared Tookie. Of course, this would alienate his GOP base and therefore dry up his cash flow in a hurry.
I think in the U.S. you do need to be seen as tough on crime and if he wants to go higher on the GOP ticket, he would need to do this. Having said that, I think it was probably politically easy to let tookie fry but I don't think it was the cause of it - more like a convenience.
I wondered about this - but in what has been a "blue" state for a long time, Arny may have actually garnered more favor with the Dems had he spared Tookie. Of course, this would alienate his GOP base and therefore dry up his cash flow in a hurry.
I think in the U.S. you do need to be seen as tough on crime and if he wants to go higher on the GOP ticket, he would need to do this. Having said that, I think it was probably politically easy to let tookie fry but I don't think it was the cause of it - more like a convenience.
well for one thing ava do you even know why the black panthers were formed and what they did? the black panthers started as a group to protect their neighborhoods from police butality. they did this by forming a group to witness protests and take the badge numbers of police that abused power. they also formed school breakfasts for kids because many in the black community could not afford this, they had reading programs for the youth, hight education programs for adults and teenage drop outs. did they use violence? yes they did. they used it in defence of police at the time shooting up their headquarters or things of that nature. just look at the story of fred hampton to see what a fucked up situation that was. to start you off, fred hampton was the leader of the black panthers chicago division who was murdered while sleeping in his bed by the chicago pd.Avarice said:
before you judge tookie williams for dedicating a book to a panther leader you should maybe find out a bit of what they were about and don't just read j. edgar cross dressing hoovers take. did you also know that u.s. gov. worked with the mafia to flood the ghettos with drugs to weaken the panther base. did you know that the gov. paid off uncle tom blacks to work with the mob to distribute those drugs. this has all recently been unclassified and is public knowledge. also lets just say if the books he produced stop just one kid from living that life i think thats a good thing. better to have not started the gang in the first place but if not him i'm sure it just would have been someone elses name.
one more thing, as far as "intimidating the media" the man was about to die. do you think mabye he was feeling a little frazzled? also we live in a (lets face it) racist society but it is much worse in the states. to many people someone being a large black man which tookie was is intimidating without him even having to do anything. don't tell me this is not true. that statement by those so called witnessess goes againts what the guards said he was like. if he was a gangbanger to the end then why did he help broker the truce between the bloods and crips? the bloods being his sworn enemy?
couple more things. as far as being "a con plain and simple" how many cons do you know that are nominated for nobel prizes in both peace and literatre? to me that is not too plain or simple.
i'm not saying this man didn't do his dirt but to ilovethemall who says he should be killed just for starting a gang. do you realize that there are people and cultures in the world and in this country as a matter of fact that think you should die for paying for sex? you ever done anything in your life that you were not proud of? i wasn't there and i don't know for sure if he did or didn't do these crimes but i do have doubt especially because he was told that apologizing might give him a better chance at clemancy to show that he has changed. even arnold said he didn't really believe he had changed cause he never said sorry.
the man never said sorry cause he maintained his innocence right to the end. he apologized for the life he led and what started because of him but he said he would not apologize for the murders cause they were not done by him. to me that sounds like a pretty strong conviction. what did he have to lose by saying sorry? nothing.
pretty smug of all of you to judge him without knowing the circumstances of why he led the life he did and why he started what he started. none of you are a young black male in that time or place, none of you have lived in south central LA. to everyone using the strong language to be his judge jury and executioner without knowing anything about the man or the case other then what has been handed to you by the media is pretty fucking arrogant. only god can be the final judge of him or any of us for that matter.
i'm not saying this man didn't do his dirt but to ilovethemall who says he should be killed just for starting a gang. do you realize that there are people and cultures in the world and in this country as a matter of fact that think you should die for paying for sex? you ever done anything in your life that you were not proud of? i wasn't there and i don't know for sure if he did or didn't do these crimes but i do have doubt especially because he was told that apologizing might give him a better chance at clemancy to show that he has changed. even arnold said he didn't really believe he had changed cause he never said sorry.
the man never said sorry cause he maintained his innocence right to the end. he apologized for the life he led and what started because of him but he said he would not apologize for the murders cause they were not done by him. to me that sounds like a pretty strong conviction. what did he have to lose by saying sorry? nothing.
pretty smug of all of you to judge him without knowing the circumstances of why he led the life he did and why he started what he started. none of you are a young black male in that time or place, none of you have lived in south central LA. to everyone using the strong language to be his judge jury and executioner without knowing anything about the man or the case other then what has been handed to you by the media is pretty fucking arrogant. only god can be the final judge of him or any of us for that matter.
yep we can agree to disagree. in general i am against the death penalty cause i know for a fact innocent people have been CONVICTED and died as a result of a crime they didn't commit. if there was no doubt in my mind that he murdered those people then even though i am against the death penalty i would have less of a problem with it.Avarice said:
my problem is that i do have some doubt as to the credibility of the evidence used to convict him.
smackyo said:
Well said. It is so easy to judge others, as a society and as an individual. What is not so easy is to take a look at what you have done to contribute to a situation or event. It is the sign of a very immature civilization to condemn killing and then to turn around and kill, no matter what the motivation. If you want to teach a child to be honest the best (only) way is to be honest yourself.
As someone who's untimely death we have been remembering just recently said, "War is over, if you want it."
Sounds to me that you're happy that someone's been killed. How does that conform with your own morality?Avarice said:It's down for good..I am going to get another URL and different one as soon as I can....different everything...! it's a surprise so don't ask.....LOL.
Twice now you speak of judging him. Who appointed you a judge of life and death? Unless you were devinely appointed, you might want to rethink why it is you think you have the right to determine who lives and who dies. I certainly have no illusions about the actions taken by street gangs, nor do I think there is any justification for violence, but your position, while you sit in your nice safe apartment, seems to presume that all circumstances and events are equal. That's simply not the case.Avarice said:EDITED out link to pics of victims. It's pointless and tasteless of me to put it here.
THIS is why I judge him. 2 Separate incidents...these deaths were....I do not believe he was framed...sorry I just don't.
Yes I have done things in my life I'm not proud of...murdering a family in cold blood isn't one of them. Starting a gang that has shed more blood in the name of COLORS of all things...is not one of them. He's dead, so our arguing is pointless. Like I said before..let's just agree to disagree. I don't want to argue about it.
You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. Let's leave it at that.
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Can you not think past the level of the standard response of what should be (determined by those who are in power)?Slowrider said:Won't the save-our-criminals crowd just move on to the next death-row-inmate of the month? There's probably several TV shows devoted just to the fad court case of the month.
I wonder who's next?
No, he most likely cannot.Discombobbled said:
As applies to the majority in this generation. People are so detached from one another on a human level these days, thanks to the 'progress' we have made technologically. We don't talk face to face. We converse on a computer screen. MSN. Chat. Forums. We don't talk on the phone anymore. We e-mail instead. Our very perception of the world around us is shaped by what we are told on our t.v. sets. Perhaps this disconnection with our feelings towards simple human compassion is a small price to pay?
