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Scary! Madness of the Tea Party (video)

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
44
48
Montréal
Let me correct you, Alin of Burnaby. All the funds which Israel annually receives from the USA are for military expenditures only, all of which are spent in the USA. The economy in Israel is dynamic and thriving. Next to American companies, Israeli companies are second in making up the Venture Exchange. As to the Jews who reside in the Westbank, they support themselves and also pay (heavy) taxes to the Israeli government. These territories are considered disputed. Some parts are under Israeli control at present.

With respect to Israeli terrorism, there were assaults on the British who were clearly obstructing the creation of a Jewish state. The King David Hotel was a fiasco. The intent was to create mayhem amongst the British but, as it turned out, there were civilians present including Jewish ones. As to Arab terrorism against Jews, the first instance was recorded in 1920. At the time, the population of Jews was just over 10%. In 1929, the infamous Hebron Massacre took place. Over sixty Jews were murdered by Arabs. Others were tortured. Women were raped. Homes and property were pillaged. The survivors fled to Jerusalem. With regard to Arab terrorism, you can google Israel+terrorism and then go to Lindaslog.

Hebron was the home of the Graves of the (Jewish) Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and wives. When Jordan held control of the Westbank and eastern Jerusalem, Jews were not allowed to worship in the Old City at the Second Temple and other places of worship including the Grave of the Patriarchs. Places of worship were kept in disrepair under the authority of Jordan if not desecrated. The difference between Jews and Muslims with regard to religious tolerance is not in question.

Although there are reports of settlers burning olive groves, there are also reports of the burning of olive groves by Palestinian Arabs with the assistance of members of BèTselem. Arabs are notable for creating (false) propaganda (see al-Dura for instance). So when you make pat statements, you do not permit full context. You just choose those reports which back your own point of view. This is another form of propaganda as opposed to genuine scholarship.

There is an extraordinary amount of religious tolerance in Israel. All religions are permitted and all places of worship are not only protected but renewed. Not only are there important places of worship of signal importance to Jews, Muslims and Catholics in Jerusalem but the Bahais have established a beautiful place of worship in Haifa. Other than Lebanon, in no other mideastern Arab country are churches and synagogues permitted to be built and in some nations, such as Saudi Arabia, none are permitted to exist.

OK if there were any doubts as to whether you were biased or not.... those are pretty much out the window now. Seriously.



Obviously this discussion is going nowhere.



I know you won't bother watching it but if anyone else is interested, these were pretty good. Good night.




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Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,261
355
83
vancouver
OK, I'm back.

So I see that Robert Spencer is the source for your knowledge of Islamic doctrine. Good Grief.
Perhaps you will now also David Duke as an expert on Judaism.

In spite of what Robert Spenser claims, there is no 'Verse of the Sword' in the Quran. If you had actually read the Quran, you would know that.
Surah 9 is the 'Verse of Repentance'. At least that is what the Quran says.

You quoted verse 9:5
I wonder if there was a reason you ignored verse 9:4 which came right before that, or if it was 'inconvenient' to read the two sentences as part of the same paragraph.

9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

The commandments to dominate and/or murder infidels (read Christians, Jews and others) are also to be found in the following Surahs: 8:67; 9:29 and; 9:33.
I think I found the verses regarding Christians and Jews.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69,)

"nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

It's a little different when you actually read the Quran as opposed to scanning internet polemic sites.

As you both realize, terrorists are difficult to identify as we see in the case of the very successful U.S. army psychiatrist who proceeded to murder his associates
There's a number of soldiers who have come back from war suffering from PTSD and have committed murder. Why would you single out the one Muslim one to identify as 'terrorist'?

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/73860/

As to "civilizations", I was speaking about what Arnold Toynbee identified as civilization
That figures. What do other historians say about Toynbee?

Scholars were much less impressed. Toynbee has been severely criticised by other historians. In general, the critique has been leveled at his use of myths and metaphors as being of comparable value to factual data, and at the soundness of his general argument about the rise and fall of civilisations, which may rely too much on a view of religion as a regenerative force.
Many critics complained that the conclusions he reached were those of a Christian moralist rather than of a historian. Hugh Trevor-Roper described Toynbee's work as a "Philosophy of Mish-Mash" - Peter Geyl described Toynbee's ideological approach as "metaphysical speculations dressed up as history"
At any rate, is there any question in your mind that terrorism in the West is perpetrated by Muslims?
Would this have any relationship at all to the fact that Western countries have invaded the Muslim world and have killed on a Biblical scale over the last 9 years?
Who did you think was going to fight back, the Buddhists?

I'm also willing to bet you didn't see that video link that Bijou provided.
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,261
355
83
vancouver
Let us look at terrorism by the numbers. Since we have an expert opinion here that all terrorists are Muslim, and none of them are ever Jewish or Christian, lets look at what the FBI says about that.

At the bottom of this link, there is a list of every terrorist act committed over a 25 year period, including September 11. It identifies who did each one.
Scroll to the bottom, folks.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,261
355
83
vancouver
I speak a multiplicity of languages other than English and have resided in countries other than Canada and the USA including one mideastern country. Furthermore, even now, I do not always reside in North America. I say "reside and resided in" as opposed to simply visiting a foreign country and being a tourist.
Welcome to the internet.
You could be the guy who taught Bill Gates about computers and taught Warren Buffett about investing.
And maybe also the guy who gave Brad Pitt his good looks.
But none of that has anything to do with the discussion taking place. It's not about you.

The arguments you make indicate you haven't read any of the books that are being discussed.
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,261
355
83
vancouver
Other than Lebanon, in no other mideastern Arab country are churches and synagogues permitted to be built and in some nations, such as Saudi Arabia, none are permitted to exist.
This is one of the things that irritate me, that our elected leaders continue to support these governments, and the west continues to pour weapons into these societies to keep them entrenched in power.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
2
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You are picking and choosing, Ray. You are typical of those who wish to demonize Israel. It is common in the West. Nonetheless, to respond, all people in Israel are free to practice their religious beliefs no matter their religion. Houses of worship of all kinds and faiths exist unlike in Muslim dominated lands. There is considerable diversion amongst Jews themselves with regard to how Judaism is practiced and there are many disputes amongst Jews and a certain intolerance by Orthodox Jews towards other Jews. Does that satisfy your Israeli bashing nature, Ray.

As to translations of the Koran, obviously I do not read Arabic so I have given the translation I found. Do you read Arabic, Ray. So you choose your translations. What we cannot doubt, however, after watching Robert Fisk`s video (yes, I have just watched it in its entirety) is the Muslim love of death and martyrdom. Isn`t that true, Ray. You have watched the video, haven`t you. It was well done and informative and very moving, wasn`t it, Ray. Of course, there were certain biases. Israel didn`t just move in to Lebanon unprovoked as the video seemed to suggest. Originally, Lebanon moved in on Israel. At any rate, it`s obvious that the Muslim religion provides the justification for martydom and love for the afterlife. Of course the video is not up-to-date. Israel finally moved out of Lebanon giving Hezbollah free rein in southern Lebanon. The UN is useless and never obstructed the movement of weapons. An alliance is in the making between Lebanon, Syria and Iran. The whole of Lebanon is being strangled by Hezbollah. Hezbollah will make its move soon to usurp Lebanon. It wants to prevent the UN from conducting an investigation into the assassination of the former PM. In the meantime, Hezbollah has set up various ammunition storage dumps amongst the south Lebanese villagers. If attacked, many civilians will be killed and this will be a propaganda victory for all of the anti-Israeli crowd. This is called assymetrical war. In actuality, these are just terrorist attacks of a different nature perpetuated by Hezbollah. As stated in the video by Fisk, the problem isn`t Israel, the problem is that Israel exists. Israel, incidentally, takes up one percent of the land mass of the Mideast and three percent of the population. But no matter, in the eyes of Hezbollah and Hamas, it shouldn`t exist. Israel achieved its independence by force and by defeating much more populous militias. The video noted at the end that Hezbollah represented religion and Israel represented technology. Of course, this was Fisk`s shortsightedness. Westpoint (military academy) refuses to teach about the wars of Israel because it doesn`t teach about `miracles`. Even secular Israelis are aware of these miracles. This represents Fisk`s inability to understand cultures other than the Lebanese. At any rate, the murders in the Shatilla camp were shameful and represent a black eye to Israel. Nonetheless, whatever action the West takes regarding terrorism, Israel is like the canary in the coalmine. A massive war is brooding. The tension is building. It may be up to Israel to take out Hezbollah (which has now metamorphized into the government of Lebanon), Syria and Iran. This will lead to much agony within Israel but there appears to be no choice as Israel`s very existence is at stake. You can see from the video, Ray, that Hezbollah disputes Israel`s very existence. This has been the problem for Israel even before the state actually came into existence. Here, in Canada, people like you feel quite safe. Not until you are actually attacked, you and some of your cohorts who write so complacently and intellectually about terror attacks, will you begin to comprehend what you are up against.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
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Welcome to the internet.
You could be the guy who taught Bill Gates about computers and taught Warren Buffett about investing.
And maybe also the guy who gave Brad Pitt his good looks.
But none of that has anything to do with the discussion taking place. It's not about you.

The arguments you make indicate you haven't read any of the books that are being discussed.
You are right. I felt the need, in a moment of weakness, to defend myself from Hank Quinlan`s accusations. Thank you for making such an abrupt criticism.
 

mistressfreyja

New member
Aug 25, 2008
1,432
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Holy, Miss Bijou, you find some really interesting topics of debate.

This is a compliment. You evoke comminication between people otherwise unengaged.

You rock.
 

aznboi9

Don't mind me...
May 3, 2005
1,380
3
38
Here Be Monsters
Well, Hank, the Old Testament is the story of the ancient Hebrew people as they evolved. For instance, the story of Abraham and Isaac is the story of how the ancients overcame the former sacrifice of human beings.
That's not even close to being correct.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,743
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victoria
You are right. I felt the need, in a moment of weakness, to defend myself from Hank Quinlan`s accusations. Thank you for making such an abrupt criticism.
You are quite right. I tend to believe that those who have actually lived in other countries and experienced other cultures directly are less likely to hold judgemental opinions about them, and are less likely to maintain stereotyped views. For example, I believed that if Sarah Palin had possessed a passport, and visited other countries (other than cross-border shopping in Canada), her views would be more tempered. I should know better; my bad.

I still tend to dismiss average tea-party supporters as uneducated yokels who's only experience outside of their home towns is being bussed to a rally somewhere. Maybe I am wrong there, too.
 

aznboi9

Don't mind me...
May 3, 2005
1,380
3
38
Here Be Monsters
So why don`t you uplift us with your `superior`understanding.
The story is about the testing of Abraham's obediance to God; it's pretty clear when you read it.

I think that Juniper has the story closer to correct than a bald statement that he's incorrect. The Story of the binding of Isaac is one of the times that God intervened with regular practice (human sacrifice) and told Abraham that sacrifice of an animal was acceptable. So, prior to that - human sacrifice was practiced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac
Whether it was practiced or not, one only needs to read the story to realize that claiming that it's about the cessation of human sacrifrice is quite a stretch.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
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I simply pointed out, Alin, that accusations are disputed. The left in Israel is very much anti settlers. Haaretz, from which you derived this information, is the one Israeli newspaper which regularly, endlessly, bashes the state of Israel. This is well known. There are also leftist rabbis. Israel is a hotbed of political fervour. It`s a wonder that the center holds. So far, in times of war, it does. I am writing this so you understand that re Israel you cannot take the word of any publication, left or right, at face value. There have been many many accusations against settlers disturbing olive groves alleged to belong to Palestinians. At the same time, the propensity of Palestinian Arabs (sometimes together with B`Tselem) to create a situation in which the Israeli public is unjust and at fault is also well known although perhaps not to the general public. The most egregious case is that of Mohammed al-Dura, a young boy who was videotaped as shot by Israeli soldiers while being sheltered in his father`s arms. It was a pitiful sight. It turned out, however, that the whole event was staged. Of course, Israel was damaged by this exceptional piece of propaganda. The French photographer was found responsible (in France) for this significant `breach`of ethics and was later sued. Most recently, there is an accusation that the burning of olive fields by settlers was also staged (see Ynet). I am not saying that settlers are not guilty of damaging Palestinian crops. Settlers tend to be a rough pioneering lot, very patriotic, rightwing and the young men and women form the core of the IDF. I am simply saying, however, that news about disputes in Israel + Palestine cannot be taken at face value by pluggling into just one news outlet.

I would remind Juniper that there are Rabbis that come out specifically to stop the settlers from burning the Olive Groves and interfering with the Palestine Owners of the Groves as they harvest the Olives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8160607.stm[/QUOTE]
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
2
0
The story is about the testing of Abraham's obediance to God; it's pretty clear when you read it.

Whether it was practiced or not, one only needs to read the story to realize that claiming that it's about the cessation of human sacrifrice is quite a stretch.
aznboi9: You have to understand the Old Testament along with all ancient works within context. You are taking a literal reading of the text and applying it. While not incorrect, it leaves you with a pretty shallow understanding. There are many levels of understanding. Kabbala masters say there are four levels, the Kabbala being the deepest. At any rate, neither your interpretation nor mine are exhaustive. Hope this helps.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
2
0
You are quite right. I tend to believe that those who have actually lived in other countries and experienced other cultures directly are less likely to hold judgemental opinions about them, and are less likely to maintain stereotyped views. For example, I believed that if Sarah Palin had possessed a passport, and visited other countries (other than cross-border shopping in Canada), her views would be more tempered. I should know better; my bad.

I still tend to dismiss average tea-party supporters as uneducated yokels who's only experience outside of their home towns is being bussed to a rally somewhere. Maybe I am wrong there, too.
Re: Tea Partyists: This is a populist movement. It has added a good deal of energy and excitement to the American political scene, Hank. They also represent a sizable portion of Americans who feel their voices are not being heard. Otherwise, there is a diversity amongst their numbers. Some, of course, are what you identify as ùneducated yokels`and provincial in their attitudes. I don`t think you could characterize all of them as such, however. I do not know enough about them to make a blanket statement. Think back just two years to Obama supporters. Were they all educated, young and enthusiastic. They did form a wave and succeeded in getting not only Obama elected but a huge number of Democratic candidates as well. As can be seen from the election results, it has turned out that Obama was a great disappointment to Americans. We have had no similar situation in Canada on the federal scene since ``Trudeaumania``. While politics sometimes feeds on such ``waves``, I think we should regard them skeptically.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,743
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victoria
Re: Tea Partyists: This is a populist movement, <b>fueled by big money from oil companies and fundraising by former Bush associates, and cheerleaded on by Fox news</b>. It has added a good deal of energy and excitement <b>and ignorance</b> to the American political scene, Hank. They also represent a sizable portion of <b> white, Christian, uneducated</b> Americans who feel their voices are not being heard. Otherwise, there is a <b>distinct lack of ethnic</b> diversity amongst their numbers. Some, of course, are what you identify as ùneducated yokels`and provincial in their attitudes. I don`t think you could characterize all of them as such, however. I do not know enough about them to make a blanket statement. Think back just two years to Obama supporters. Were they all educated, young and enthusiastic? <b>Or were many of them just seeking a positive message and an alternative to the horrendous policies of the utterly failed Bush regime?</b>. They did form a wave and succeeded in getting not only Obama elected but a huge number of Democratic candidates as well. As can be seen from the election results, it has turned out that Obama was a great disappointment to Americans <b>with unrealistic expectations, and those that hoped he would fight harder for what he promised.</b> We have had no similar situation in Canada on the federal scene since "Trudeaumania". While politics sometimes feeds on such "waves", I think we should regard them skeptically.
There. Fixed it for you.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
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Let`s look at a fact, Hank. Voted in to congress: A black man in South Carolina, first time. Does that make an impression.
 

juniper

New member
Apr 11, 2006
407
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0
Ray--re Muslim psychiatrist. There was no evidence of PTSD. There is considerable testimony that he justified his killing machine from his understanding of the Muslim religion and the Koran. Why do you refuse to acknowledge its influence.
 
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