Real Estate Scam Warning

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
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It's expensive to acquire the land, build the project and market it. Barclay Construction, Carrera Property Group and Rennie Marketing have come up with a new twist.

What they are doing in a number of projects is preselling the units and using the funds raised to complete the project. Then, they cancel all the presold contracts and market the project at current price.

This lovely little scam is a winner for the developer in all ways. If the Real Estate market drops, they just hold the purchaser to their contract. I would love to see a purchaser try to escape one of these contracts. If the Real Estate market rises, they just send a letter canceling the contract and promising a refund of the deposit. Meanwhile, they used the purchaser's deposit money and the presale contract to fund their project.

For the purchaser, a presale contract was always a loser. The purchaser has a fair amount of credit that they can't access until the unit has been purchased. Now, they don't even get to buy the unit if prices go up.

Companies to avoid:
Barclay Construction
Carrera Property Group
Rennie Marketing http://www.rennie.com/rennie.html

News Links:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=0367d1e4-8b02-418b-b1c7-45d2618c1078&k=27031
http://www.thenownews.com/issues07/052107/news/052107nn1.html
http://www.westcoaster.ca/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=2057
 

jimbo2006

New member
Jun 12, 2006
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Thanx for the heads up. Seems to be more of that going around recently given the continuing run up in construction costs.
 

InTheBum

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2004
3,198
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Who would be dumb enough?

I hope no one on this board is stupid enough to purchase real estate in Vancouver at the current levels!
 

metoo113

Member
Aug 2, 2002
407
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Somewhere Down The Crazy River
I hope no one on this board is stupid enough to purchase real estate in Vancouver at the current levels!
Why, do you think real estate prices in Vancouver are going to go down any time soon.
 

twoblues

New member
Apr 25, 2006
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North Vancouver
They may not go down but I certainly wouldn't count on them going up. Ever hear of something called a cap rate? Every property owner should understand what a cap rate before buying. It should damn near be mandatory.Anyway the cap rates now are about 3-4%, which is rediculously low. Basically it means you need a place to appreciate just to justify buying it in the first place.

Exactly. I was looking to buy earlier this year, but I refused to get into a bidding war for a lot of the properties I was looking at. I'm not paying a crapload of money for an old townhome that will not appreciate as I own it.
 

metoo113

Member
Aug 2, 2002
407
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Somewhere Down The Crazy River
They may not go down but I certainly wouldn't count on them going up. Ever hear of something called a cap rate? Every property owner should understand what a cap rate before buying. It should damn near be mandatory.Anyway the cap rates now are about 3-4%, which is rediculously low. Basically it means you need a place to appreciate just to justify buying it in the first place.
But I do expect them to go up and based on my experience in real estate, prices always will go up in the long term. It's still one of the best strategies to preserve wealth.
 

metoo113

Member
Aug 2, 2002
407
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Somewhere Down The Crazy River
Well to each his own, but I don't think they go up in a vaccuum. There has to be underlying fundamentals which come into play at some point, just as there is in the stock market. If enough people can't afford to buy them, they pretty much can't continue to rise, now can they?

Also keep in mind, real estate prices were flat here for about 10 years or so. It's not like they've been going up forever, and if you can't get a cap rate of at least 6-7% I don't even see the point.

It's not all roses. I talked to a client during tax season and he told me they were assessed a levy of $83,000 per unit for repairs on their place. Fortunately for this guy, it's not a large amount of money for him, but it certainly is for others. And I'm also a landlord, so I know the hassles involved with trying to get ride of bad tenants, not fun. In fact had my properties not appreciated significantly, I would have sold them and got rid of the headache and that <b> is </b> with a cap rate of about 7% and significant positive cash flows monthly.
We'll I like an investment where you can put in $100,000 and then 30 years later sell it for $3,000,000, plus I had a positive cash flow from it every year and no tenants to worry about. I could have made the same kind of money buying stocks but they require a lot more work and knowledge plus I would have had the potential of a total loss. Think Nortel or any of the other dot com's that fell. Land will be there for my lifetime unless there's a flood and it's something I can pass on to my children that will increase in value over the long term.

Also the TD Bank says that houses in Canada will increase in value 4%/yr for the next 20 years but that it will be a higher % increase in major cities like Victoria, Vancouver and Toronto. 4% isn't huge but in the long term it will be good.
 

jjinvan

New member
Apr 4, 2005
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Keep in mind that a LOT of economists and other experts are predicting a minimum of 10-12% interest rates if the government actually tries to meet the Kyoto targets.

I've sold off all my rental properties and sunk the money into bare land that I know will be worth good money in about 10 years or so due to municipal expansion plans etc...

It's long term investment money, so I can afford to ride out any dips in the market and it's not leveraged so I don't have to worry about high interest rates.

Plus if the construction market does take a dive, then I've got the perfect opportunity to build a few houses inexpensively and rent them out and sit on them.
 

metoo113

Member
Aug 2, 2002
407
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Somewhere Down The Crazy River
"I'm not saying real estate wasn't a good investment it was great, but going forward, I personally wouldn't buy a house in North Van, or West Van as a rental property and hope to make money on the futures increase in value. But an appartment building in Cranbrook, or maybe Hope, or some other small community with a lot of upside, along with a decent cap rate of say 7-10% that would be more interesting. And the cost would likely be similar."

Exactly, I wouldn't buy in N Van either. Where I've done the best is in the Interior and on the Island. I think with the baby boomers we have another 20 years of good price increases. Many of the boomers are moving to BC for the weather and they can afford to buy properties in the interior and on the island for cash.

As far as the 4% the TD said it was for all of Canada but some areas would od much better. I think BC will do a lot higher then what you could hope for in a GIC.


"historical returns are no guarantee of future performance,"

As it relates to mutual funds, not real estate. Yes I have heard that expression.

"Services me right, for discussing investments on an escort board."

Why are we Ijjits here!!
 

Sonny

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2004
3,731
220
63
Every property owner should understand what a cap rate before buying.
What percentage of prospective property owners do you think actually understands the notion of investment, return and the math? Most folks buy simply because they want to; there is a lot of emotion involved. As long as they have the money or can get it through whatever schemes lenders devise to put it into their hands, folks will buy. I've watched coastal California for decades, and the situation there never ceases to amaze me.
 

littlejimbigher

New member
Jun 21, 2006
1,438
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surrey
Take a look at who are the owners of those companies and that they are directors of the Van Board of Trade and YVR.
This makes this smell even more.
Good on the province stopping the resales untill litigation is finished and I hope the original buyers win.
 

carefulone

caring but cautious
Nov 5, 2003
68
0
6
Delta
Most of the comments I've read or heard about the situation that led to this thread being started are likely based on a very incomplete knowledge about what exactly is occurring. IMHO that situation is probably more about mortgage lenders and construction/development costs than the developer's desire to make a buck.

I'd be willing to bet serious money that the money owed by the developer on their construction financing is more than the total value of all the contracts that they are seeking to cancel. If my guess is correct, most or all of the following will apply:

The mortgage lenders probably are refusing to give releases of their mortgages on the individual units unless they receive more money than will flow from each sale.

If the developer doesn't have huge amounts of capital behind them, they may be unable to make good on the shortfall.

If the contract of purchase signed by these purchasers expressly permits the developer to cancel, than the developer will probably have to cancel them. Otherwise, none of the purchases will complete (because the construction financing mortgage(s) can't be discharged with the dollars available), the mortgages will go into foreclosure, and the properties will be sold under foreclosure. The people who signed the original pre-sale contracts will be left with no remedy against the land, and any remedy that they may have had against the developer will most likely be illusory, because the results of the foreclosure proceedings will at best leave the developer broke and at worst leave the developer bankrupt.

When a developer goes the pre-sale route, they are taking chances as well - if their estimates of construction and development costs are too low, they lose money instead of making money.

In small developments (40 or fewer units??) the developer often doesn't make any money until the last 5 or so sales complete.

I worked with a small developer a few years ago who experienced this sort of reversal. He ended up negotiating a reduction in the mortgage amount owing, which allowed the sales to complete, but in return for that reduction, he ended up signing away most of the money he had set aside for his retirement - essentially the proceeds of his life's work. He did, however, avoid bankruptcy.

There certainly is a possibility that the developer's actions are motivated only by a desire to increase profit, but given the horrible publicity that has resulted, I seriously doubt it.

In particular, I am sure that Bob Rennie has nothing to do with this decision, because the potential damage to his business is huge - developers can change their names or start up new companies fairly easily, but Bob Rennie's reputation is his biggest asset.
 

jjinvan

New member
Apr 4, 2005
684
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Most of the comments I've read or heard about the situation that led to this thread being started are likely based on a very incomplete knowledge about what exactly is occurring. IMHO that situation is probably more about mortgage lenders and construction/development costs than the developer's desire to make a buck.

I'd be willing to bet serious money that the money owed by the developer on their construction financing is more than the total value of all the contracts that they are seeking to cancel. If my guess is correct, most or all of the following will apply:

The mortgage lenders probably are refusing to give releases of their mortgages on the individual units unless they receive more money than will flow from each sale.

If the developer doesn't have huge amounts of capital behind them, they may be unable to make good on the shortfall.

If the contract of purchase signed by these purchasers expressly permits the developer to cancel, than the developer will probably have to cancel them. Otherwise, none of the purchases will complete (because the construction financing mortgage(s) can't be discharged with the dollars available), the mortgages will go into foreclosure, and the properties will be sold under foreclosure. The people who signed the original pre-sale contracts will be left with no remedy against the land, and any remedy that they may have had against the developer will most likely be illusory, because the results of the foreclosure proceedings will at best leave the developer broke and at worst leave the developer bankrupt.

When a developer goes the pre-sale route, they are taking chances as well - if their estimates of construction and development costs are too low, they lose money instead of making money.

In small developments (40 or fewer units??) the developer often doesn't make any money until the last 5 or so sales complete.

I worked with a small developer a few years ago who experienced this sort of reversal. He ended up negotiating a reduction in the mortgage amount owing, which allowed the sales to complete, but in return for that reduction, he ended up signing away most of the money he had set aside for his retirement - essentially the proceeds of his life's work. He did, however, avoid bankruptcy.

There certainly is a possibility that the developer's actions are motivated only by a desire to increase profit, but given the horrible publicity that has resulted, I seriously doubt it.

In particular, I am sure that Bob Rennie has nothing to do with this decision, because the potential damage to his business is huge - developers can change their names or start up new companies fairly easily, but Bob Rennie's reputation is his biggest asset.
Uhh you're forgetting a few things:

1) The reason the developer owes so much money against the properties is because he borrowed it. He KNOWINGLY borrowed more money against the properties than he had contracted to sell them for. Can you say fraud?

2) If the developer screwed up on his estimate of what it was going to cost him to build the places, that is HIS PROBLEM. If he had hugely underestimated, it would be HIS GAIN. No one forced him to start the project in the first place.

3) Bob Rennie's reputation is that of a guy who screwed over a LOT of people in the whole 'leaky condo' fiasco. People in BC have extremely short memories it seems.

4) The pre-existing contracts that are being cancelled are with various real estate agents who would be receiving roughly 5% commission on average. The new listings all have the guy's wife as the listing agent.

This is all about developer greed. They borrowed against the increased value of the land and over leveraged the properties FRAUDULENTLY and their lender has called them on it, and they are using that as an excuse to not live up to their signed sales contracts. I bet they took nice big 6 or 7 figure salaries over the entire time (borrowing the money against the properties to pay themselves) and everything is under a corporation so if they bankrupt it and walk away they have still pocketed a sizable amount of cash personally and they have no personal liability.

If the contracts do have a unilateral cancellation clause by the developer that is not a force majeur clause (ie: act of god, war, terrorism or otherwise beyond the control of the developer) then they are likely illegal contracts under the BC real estate laws, or at the very least, the agents who represented the buyers in those contract signings are going to get sued and/or lose their licences for negligence.

If you underestimate the building cost, that is not a factor 'beyond your control', same goes if you hire bad workmen or borrow too much money from the bank.
 

carefulone

caring but cautious
Nov 5, 2003
68
0
6
Delta
Uhh you're forgetting a few things:

1) The reason the developer owes so much money against the properties is because he borrowed it. He KNOWINGLY borrowed more money against the properties than he had contracted to sell them for. Can you say fraud?

2) If the developer screwed up on his estimate of what it was going to cost him to build the places, that is HIS PROBLEM. If he had hugely underestimated, it would be HIS GAIN. No one forced him to start the project in the first place.

3) Bob Rennie's reputation is that of a guy who screwed over a LOT of people in the whole 'leaky condo' fiasco. People in BC have extremely short memories it seems.

4) The pre-existing contracts that are being cancelled are with various real estate agents who would be receiving roughly 5% commission on average. The new listings all have the guy's wife as the listing agent.

This is all about developer greed. They borrowed against the increased value of the land and over leveraged the properties FRAUDULENTLY and their lender has called them on it, and they are using that as an excuse to not live up to their signed sales contracts. I bet they took nice big 6 or 7 figure salaries over the entire time (borrowing the money against the properties to pay themselves) and everything is under a corporation so if they bankrupt it and walk away they have still pocketed a sizable amount of cash personally and they have no personal liability.

If the contracts do have a unilateral cancellation clause by the developer that is not a force majeur clause (ie: act of god, war, terrorism or otherwise beyond the control of the developer) then they are likely illegal contracts under the BC real estate laws, or at the very least, the agents who represented the buyers in those contract signings are going to get sued and/or lose their licences for negligence.

If you underestimate the building cost, that is not a factor 'beyond your control', same goes if you hire bad workmen or borrow too much money from the bank.
It is certainly possible that this is motivated by greed, just as it is possible that it isn't.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't anything in BC law that prohibits making a contract that permits unilateral cancellation.

These were pre-sales. There is rarely any representation by a "buyer's agent" in any traditional real estate transaction in BC (I always laugh when I hear any buyer refer to someone as "their" agent). When it comes to pre-sales, how likely is it that there are many deals where there are two agents involved?

In addition, these sort of contracts are almost always on the developer's own forms, and include custom language, of the developer's own choosing. Negotiation about contract wording is almost non-existent.

IIRC, many of these pre-sale contracts were signed in 2005. Are you seriously suggesting that it is fraudulent for a developer to incorrectly estimate how costs might change over a two year period?

Construction costs in the lower mainland have grown considerably in the last two years, and there are shortages of labour and materials that, at the least, can result in delays.

As I expect you are aware, these construction mortgages aren't advanced all at once, and generally speaking no payments are made on them until the unit sales actually complete. As a result, the amount owing at time of payout includes a substantial portion of already accrued interest. All it takes is for there to be delays in approval or inspection processes or stages of construction (particularly early ones) or for certain parts of the construction process (again, particularly early ones) to come in at higher than expected costs, for the interest component on these mortgages to grow substantially.

I am not saying that it is impossible for this to be an example of underhanded dealing. What I am saying, is that it is very likely that this is an example of a developer underestimating future costs and then, as a result of being caught in a resulting financial bind, being forced to invoke a contract provision that was put into the contract for that very purpose (possibly, at the insistence of the developer's lenders!).

You need to understand that so much of this business is driven by the requirements of lenders. In the case of small developers at least, there is an almost certainty that the individuals who own the development companies have had to supply personal guarantees to get the financing.

I feel sorry for the buyers who may end up either disappointed or, worse, disappointed, without a home, and financially behind. I would point out though that:

1) if these contracts do include a right that permits the seller to cancel them unilaterally, the buyers should not have signed them unless they were willing to accept the risk that the developer would cancel them; and
2) even if the contracts do not contain such a right, the buyers need to understand that any contract that is for delivery of something a long way in the future is vulnerable, if there are reversals of fortune, and the buyer's remedies if the seller breaches the contract may be far from adequate.

I wonder how many of the buyers actually read the prospectus that they were given at or before the time the contract was agreed upon? In particular, I wonder if they paid any attention to those parts of the prospectus that dealt with construction financing mortgages?

I really wonder how many of the buyers sought legal advice on the contracts before signing them? In my experience, probably none of them.

If the poster wasn't jjinvan, I would have thought that the poster was asking that there be some sort of government intervention in this process, but that of course couldn't be the case, could it? ;)
 

jjinvan

New member
Apr 4, 2005
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To the best of my knowledge, there isn't anything in BC law that prohibits making a contract that permits unilateral cancellation.

These were pre-sales. There is rarely any representation by a "buyer's agent" in any traditional real estate transaction in BC (I always laugh when I hear any buyer refer to someone as "their" agent). When it comes to pre-sales, how likely is it that there are many deals where there are two agents involved?

In addition, these sort of contracts are almost always on the developer's own forms, and include custom language, of the developer's own choosing. Negotiation about contract wording is almost non-existent.

2) even if the contracts do not contain such a right, the buyers need to understand that any contract that is for delivery of something a long way in the future is vulnerable, if there are reversals of fortune, and the buyer's remedies if the seller breaches the contract may be far from adequate.

If the poster wasn't jjinvan, I would have thought that the poster was asking that there be some sort of government intervention in this process, but that of course couldn't be the case, could it? ;)
I think you need to sit and read the BC real estate act.

Contracts for the sale of residential real estate must meet some VERY exact criteria. Also, in all real estate transactions, there is a licenced agent who has signed an agreement with the buyer to look after the buyer's interests. In some cases you can have 'dual agency' where there is only one agent but it is illegal to force this on the buyer and they have to sign a waiver saying that they understand that they are entitled to have their own agent and that they are giving up significant rights if they don't. Also, the buyer's agent is held responsible if something is done which they should have protected against or advised against at the time of signing of contracts.

I've bought and sold a lot of property in BC, and I've read through all the legislation during some deals that almost went bad.

Every single time I've bought or sold a house there has been substantial negotiation about the wording of the contract, except for the things that are actually on the pre-printed forms from the real estate board, which, as far as I know, must be used in a residential real estate transaction by law.

The buyers don't need to 'understand' anything. If the seller had a legal obligation and he did not live up to it, then he will end up in court and get sued for any and all damages that arise from his failure to live up to his obligation.

If the market had gone the other way, and the prices had fallen and the buyers wanted to get out of the contracts, I bet they wouldn't have seen one penny of their deposits back and they probably would have wound up in court for even more money.

I don't think that the government has to intervene in the process at all. I think that the existing laws are sufficient, but I also think that in this case they were NOT followed and charges should be laid in several instances against several people. There will likely also be several civil cases filed.

Also, keep in mind that despite the fact that there were papers served and claims made against the titles by the people who had their contracts cancelled, the developer DID NOT indicate this on the disclosure statements (As required by law) when they re-listed the properties. The only reason that the listing agent allowed this to happen, as it will likely mean their licence now that they got caught at it, is because it is the guy's wife. This CLEARLY indicates a deliberate attempt at fraud. They cannot say that they didn't know better, because as a licenced professional, the guy's wife cannot claim to not know the rules, it's called professional liability.

IF the courts apply the already existing laws as they are written (instead of trying to make new law as the BC courts so often try to do) then things should turn out reasonably well for everyone except the builder (who tried to commit fraud) the real estate agent (who commited acts of professional negligence) and the lenders (who did not do their due dilligence and figure out that they were advancing more money than what the properties were going to sell for according to the existing contracts at best, and at worst, were active participants in the fraud scheme).
 
Ashley Madison
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