RCMP shot and killed a man in DT Vancouver
- Thread starter Kevin101
- Start date
Maybe read the related items from around the web, which is right beside the article in question, then go get your bullshit detector fixed.
shooting at a range is a very differnt thing from shooting when someone is after you with a knife, gun etc...
Police are not trained to shoot to injure or disarm or do any other such silly nonsence.
I am sure the cop involved didnt go to work looking to kill someone but he go to work expecting to go home to his wife and kids safe and sound.
I'm going to disagree completely. No police force is trained to shoot to injure. If they pull the trigger, the shot is meant to kill. By trying to aim for hands, arms, legs, etc they are putting other people nearby at risk. Shooting a stationary target on a range is nothing compared to shooting an unpredictable, moving, human target with innocent people possibly immediately beside or behind the target. Police aim for the center mass. It is the largest target that can bring a person down.
Speaking from speculation and the news reports only, it seems there were no other SAFE ways to disarm this guy. Yes the police have kevlar body vests, but do they cover every inch of their body? Nope. The officers arms, neck, face, armpits, legs, groin, etc, etc, are all open to attack by a knife. Doesn't matter if it's an x-acto knife, or a machete either.. they both still have the potential to break skin and cause damage. It simply was not an option.
The report says that they were anticipating 2 men (2 men were reported breaking into a car). The one shot wasn't a kid, but in his 50's, and despite being approached by 2 armed police officers chose to advance on them with a potential weapon.
Those target practise pictures show a big old bulls eye dead centre in the chest. I doubt if they get higher marks for aiming for a hand, shoulder or knee cap. The guy was stealing from a car, not exactly a violent offense. Had he acted differently, more appropriately to the crime, he would be on his way home by now. At his age, it is unlikely to be his first offense, so he also would know the possible outcome of his actions.
Perhaps the answer is more training in negotiating or talking someone down in order to defuse these kinds of situations.
Those target practise pictures show a big old bulls eye dead centre in the chest. I doubt if they get higher marks for aiming for a hand, shoulder or knee cap. The guy was stealing from a car, not exactly a violent offense. Had he acted differently, more appropriately to the crime, he would be on his way home by now. At his age, it is unlikely to be his first offense, so he also would know the possible outcome of his actions.
Perhaps the answer is more training in negotiating or talking someone down in order to defuse these kinds of situations.
Maybe all police should be enrolled in a martial arts class? So after they get posted they are enrolled in a real martial arts school like Jiujitsu or Hapkido until they are black belts.
There is a further article on the cbc website, where some guy says he taped it all on his phone, but the cop saw him do it, came over and deleted it.
He says he is taking it in to a computer expert to see if he can still find it on his phone.
I imagine if there was a video that was deleted then should be able to recover it?
Same thing with Oscar Grant, they confiscated the video then said there was no video. But thank God that subway pulled in and they filmed the shooting.
Well here, they say, they erased if from his phone, and gave the phone back, so they did not confiscate it. So as far as I know, they should be able to recover it off his phone. I don't know how, but all the computer geeks at my work say it can be done easily.
Bingo. An x-acto blade that gets your carotid artery will kill you dead. Body armour doesn't protect that. Also, despite what people may see in movies and TV, a gunshot to the arm, shoulder, or leg doesn't necessarily even slow somebody down if their adrenaline's pumping (or if they're high on crack or something). You're absolutely right that police aim for the center of mass for exactly this reason.
To be fair, from the sources I've read, it doesn't sound like the guy was advancing on the cops - just that he was shaky and refused to drop the weapon. Based on that, I still think the shooting was justified.
The cellphone video being erased, on the other hand, is indefensible. What's worse (although not the fault of the cops on the scene) is that this incident, like every other incident where the actions of police come into question, will be investigated by the police themselves. How do they expect the public to trust the results of the investigation which is undertaken with such a blatant conflict of interests?
Besides, aiming for an appendage is much more difficult. He moves his arm and where does the stray bullet go?
It only takes so long for a human being to come at you with a knife. Would you want to risk and actually wait, aim correctly and then pull the trigger?
What the officers did I think was a good decision. You only have so much time to think about the situation and decidide. The officer was in danger, got the gun shot the person. It was just a bad ending.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/sh...ith+police+Friday+homeless/1419560/story.html
The Vancouver Police announced that the 58 Vann Hubbard "died after from a single gunshot wound" and was homeless.
What the officers did I think was a good decision. You only have so much time to think about the situation and decidide. The officer was in danger, got the gun shot the person. It was just a bad ending.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/sh...ith+police+Friday+homeless/1419560/story.html
The Vancouver Police announced that the 58 Vann Hubbard "died after from a single gunshot wound" and was homeless.
whatever
If you believe that I have a cheap bridge for sale only $1,000.00
I have wasted too much time with this thread today
I'd like to see you react to a guy with a knife advancing on you. A knife is a direct threat to your life. More than likely he wants to kill with it, therefore lethal force is justified. Go back to sleep!
This is not TV as someone mentioned above. When they take out their guns, they intend to use lethal force, not to disarm or wound them. The chance that the ricochet or missed bullet will injure an innocent bystander or themselves is too great. Plus it clearly states in their procedures manual that warning shots are strictly forbidden.
They are trained to shoot at the centre of mass of the symbolic assailant. During this phase, their adrenaline is pumping so fast that they usually experience tunnel vision and audio. The survival instinct kicks in and their only thought is to eliminate the assailant. They temporarily don't have the mental capacity to take proper aim at a foot or hand. I think most civilians in this situation would probably just faint.
Mace in the eyes is often ineffective with people as crazy as this. They are usually on drugs or in paranoid mental states, etc. Plus he was advancing at them and there was no time to try different less-lethal techniques.
Again, I'd like to see you react in this same situation. It's funny how now they want the tasers to be used even for a situation that calls for lethal force.
I agree with you about getting rid of the video evidence, but I have to say that it's kinda gross how some people immediately think they struck it rich when they film something like this or the Dziekanski video. How many times has that been played and how much do you think the author of that video has made since it first surfaced? Plus these videos capture only a part of what actually went down. These videos are often too one-dimensional to show if proper police procedure was followed or not. There's always something the camera doesn't show and usually the public overreacts and starts calling for inquiries and criminal charges and other shit like that.
It's that one split second where the officer is dealing with an idiot like this that she starts having thoughts of pending criminal charges, disciplinary action, law suits and she second guesses her course of action and she gets killed as a result.
Police investigating each other? Well this thread proves exactly why that practice is in place. Because the public HAS NO IDEA of what the police go through every day. They draw their conclusions of proper police procedures from bad TV cop shows and movies. Come on, shoot at the leg or arm? That's just idiotic!
You're blowing it out your ass again and showing that you have no idea what you're talking about. Totally different shooting at a range than in a situation where your life and that of your partner and the public hang in the balance.
Police are trained to use lethal force when discharging their weapons. That includes aiming for the center of mass of the symbolic assailant, IE the torso.
You cannot negotiate with someone who is holding a knife and intends to use it. He is either mentally ill, on drugs, in an agitated state, wants to commit suicide or kill you or a combination of any of the above. You don't have time to talk to them when they are advancing on you with a knife. He was given commands to drop his weapon, when he refused he was shot. End of story.
You live in such a fantasy world that posts like these make you look like such a fool! Your own doing, not mine!
Panther
Coming from a boot licker I'm not surprised. Police are PEACE officers, just crack him over the leg with a baton. No time to react? Yet was enough time to react with a gun. Thank God you arent a cop Panther.I'd like to see you react to a guy with a knife advancing on you. A knife is a direct threat to your life. More than likely he wants to kill with it, therefore lethal force is justified. Go back to sleep!
This is not TV as someone mentioned above. When they take out their guns, they intend to use lethal force, not to disarm or wound them. The chance that the ricochet or missed bullet will injure an innocent bystander or themselves is too great. Plus it clearly states in their procedures manual that warning shots are strictly forbidden.
They are trained to shoot at the centre of mass of the symbolic assailant. During this phase, their adrenaline is pumping so fast that they usually experience tunnel vision and audio. The survival instinct kicks in and their only thought is to eliminate the assailant. They temporarily don't have the mental capacity to take proper aim at a foot or hand. I think most civilians in this situation would probably just faint.
Mace in the eyes is often ineffective with people as crazy as this. They are usually on drugs or in paranoid mental states, etc. Plus he was advancing at them and there was no time to try different less-lethal techniques.
Again, I'd like to see you react in this same situation. It's funny how now they want the tasers to be used even for a situation that calls for lethal force.
I agree with you about getting rid of the video evidence, but I have to say that it's kinda gross how some people immediately think they struck it rich when they film something like this or the Dziekanski video. How many times has that been played and how much do you think the author of that video has made since it first surfaced? Plus these videos capture only a part of what actually went down. These videos are often too one-dimensional to show if proper police procedure was followed or not. There's always something the camera doesn't show and usually the public overreacts and starts calling for inquiries and criminal charges and other shit like that.
It's that one split second where the officer is dealing with an idiot like this that she starts having thoughts of pending criminal charges, disciplinary action, law suits and she second guesses her course of action and she gets killed as a result.
Police investigating each other? Well this thread proves exactly why that practice is in place. Because the public HAS NO IDEA of what the police go through every day. They draw their conclusions of proper police procedures from bad TV cop shows and movies. Come on, shoot at the leg or arm? That's just idiotic!
You're blowing it out your ass again and showing that you have no idea what you're talking about. Totally different shooting at a range than in a situation where your life and that of your partner and the public hang in the balance.
Police are trained to use lethal force when discharging their weapons. That includes aiming for the center of mass of the symbolic assailant, IE the torso.
You cannot negotiate with someone who is holding a knife and intends to use it. He is either mentally ill, on drugs, in an agitated state, wants to commit suicide or kill you or a combination of any of the above. You don't have time to talk to them when they are advancing on you with a knife. He was given commands to drop his weapon, when he refused he was shot. End of story.
You live in such a fantasy world that posts like these make you look like such a fool! Your own doing, not mine!
Panther
Let's see you try that on a guy with a knife. If you close on a guy with a knife, chances are you're getting cut. Possibly badly. Anyone who thinks otherwise has watched too many movies, and has never actually had to confront somebody with a knife. Personally I've only ever been in one situation where I faced a guy with a knife. I "won," but I still got cut. Talk to virtually anyone who has ever been in hand-to-hand with a guy with a knife, and they'll tell you the same thing. In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
I have 2 black belts....... Hapkido and Karate. If someone comes at you MOVE BACKWARDS, they weren't indoors backed up against a wall with nowhere to go. Walk backwards tell him/her to drop it. If their's enough time to unholster your firearm and shoot, you have time to walk backwards and grab your baton. It's a knife not a gun, only useful at close range.
Hapkido is crazy
Many people have learned the hard way just how sadistic Hapkido is. I've taken Kung-Fu since I was 5. A family friend learned traditionally from his father who was a Grand Master. He taught a few in my family and a couple friends of his. No belts though, they don't believe in them. Karate has been so watered down, it's almost impossible to learn it in its traditional form.Lots of styles of martial arts are watered down. Some hapkido styles don't include ground fighting(jiujitsu), mine doesHapkido is crazy
