Questions About STV, Electoral Reform

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
633
10
18
First Past The Post is Broken

Whatever it takes to keep the NDP out of power, I'm happy...
Two elections back the Liberals won most of the votes but the NDP had a majority government.

STV would prevent this.

I'm glad to hear MrPeterNorth is voting for STV.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
633
10
18
Electoral Science

Some of the systems where voters get more than one vote degenerate to a First Past The Post system as voters game the system to help their first choice. Gaming a multi vote system may be called plumping. I think Condorcet has this problem.

STV can not be played this way because every voter has only one vote and that vote goes to the highest preference on their ballot. The best you can do for your preferred candidate with the preferential ballot used with STV is honestly show your preferences on the ballot. There is no need to vote strategically, you cannot vote strategically and you cannot plump.

I am not familiar with "Bayesian Regret" but it sounds like a way of finding something that is least objectionable rather than most preferred. I recall that following the logic of such systems is way harder that understanding STV.

The reasons behind the selection of STV by the Citizens' Assembly can be found at http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public

The 160 members of the the Citizens' Assembly set three goals at the beginning of the year they spent studying electoral systems. Their three goals were;

- Fairness of representation – the parties’ share of seats in the Legislature reflects their share of the votes

- Local representation – communities and regions are represented by elected MLAs

- Voter choice – voters have more options on the ballot, and thus more power




I don't have a vote here so I have not bothered with the discussion but, out of curiosity, and as you offered...

Charles Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll, proposed a Condorcet based system that seemed well founded when I did have an interest in such matters. I believe it got tweaked by some mathemticians a few years ago to improve it further, how does the STV system compare and why is it considered better?

I think, also a few years back, another mathemician proposed that Bayesian Regret was the best measure of voting systems, and that made range voting systems - not ranking systems - the least worst option of voting systems. What were the reasons behind the BC selection of STV or indeed what were the terms of reference of the investigating committee that produced the STV recommendation?
 

island-guy

New member
Sep 27, 2007
707
6
0
- Fairness of representation – the parties’ share of seats in the Legislature reflects their share of the votes

- Local representation – communities and regions are represented by elected MLAs

- Voter choice – voters have more options on the ballot, and thus more power
1) It has been shown time and again that STV where it is used does NOT give PR. The number of seats under STV usually does NOT reflect the parties' shares of the vote.

2) Having MUCH LARGER electoral districts does away with local representation completely for all but the densest parts of the urban core (What do you know, that's where all the pro-stv people live)

3) More options does NOT equal more power, it just equals more work to fill out the ballot. Choices does NOT equal power, in fact it means the dilution of votes and voter power.

The election of candidates from fringe parties has been shown time and again to be a major flaw with any sort of STV or PR system. Those fringe candidates prove to be nothing but an annoyance and a distraction and anything that they do achieve serves only their small special interest minority and NOT the general population.

Look at how many absurd concessions the ultra-religious parties have gotten from governments when they held the balance of power by electing only 1 or 2 members out of 100s.

Look at what happened recently in the federal minority government situation. Imagine the disaster of having Jack Layton in cabinet! You think the economy is bad now? Wow.. imagine what it would look like with Layton as finance minister!
 

aznboi9

Don't mind me...
May 3, 2005
1,379
3
38
Here Be Monsters
1) It has been shown time and again that STV where it is used does NOT give PR. The number of seats under STV usually does NOT reflect the parties' shares of the vote.
That’s funny. The websites of the Australian Electoral Commission, the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland and even Wikipedia describe STV as proportional representation. But let me guess: they all believed the fast ferries were a good idea?

And the published election results that I’ve found have all shown accurate election results. Even the results that you tried to spin as non proportional were proportional. You’re just making up stuff now.

2) Having MUCH LARGER electoral districts does away with local representation completely for all but the densest parts of the urban core (What do you know, that's where all the pro-stv people live)
Actually, no, it’s in fact our current system that does away with local representation because of the low threshold of victory. A candidate needs only 40% of the vote in a riding to win a seat, so he/she simply needs to concentrate on the dense urban areas to ensure election.

On the other hand, with BC-STV, candidates will need roughly 80% of the vote per riding to get elected. Concentrating on dense urban cores will not be enough to get elected meaning that they will have to pay attention to all areas.

3) More options does NOT equal more power, it just equals more work to fill out the ballot. Choices does NOT equal power, in fact it means the dilution of votes and voter power.
I see. So by your reasoning, that must mean that LESS choice means more power. Therefore, if we simply take away our right to vote altogether, then, by your logic, that should be the ultimate level of voter empowerment. Good times!

More choice does mean more power for the simple reason that voters not only choose which party they want to vote for but also which candidate from that party. Candidates have to be more accountable to voters because if they don’t, voters now have the option of voting for another candidate of the same party. There’s no dilution.

The election of candidates from fringe parties has been shown time and again to be a major flaw with any sort of STV or PR system. Those fringe candidates prove to be nothing but an annoyance and a distraction and anything that they do achieve serves only their small special interest minority and NOT the general population.

Look at how many absurd concessions the ultra-religious parties have gotten from governments when they held the balance of power by electing only 1 or 2 members out of 100s.
Baseless fearmongering again. I already posted on this so I’ll just post it again.

Look at what happened recently in the federal minority government situation. Imagine the disaster of having Jack Layton in cabinet! You think the economy is bad now? Wow.. imagine what it would look like with Layton as finance minister!
As already mentioned, minorities under PR are not the same under FPTP. As treveller already posted, FPTP creates distortions of the vote so that small shifts in the popular vote lead to huge swings in seats that are awarded. That means that one or the other major parties are forever itching to trigger an election and the other major party is beholden to the smaller parties to prop up government.

Since these distortions of the vote are removed under PR, neither major party has the incentive to pull an election and, therefore, do not require support of the fringe parties. Again, the last three minorities in Ireland have lasted 5 years each.
 

aznboi9

Don't mind me...
May 3, 2005
1,379
3
38
Here Be Monsters
The election of candidates from fringe parties has been shown time and again to be a major flaw with any sort of STV or PR system. Those fringe candidates prove to be nothing but an annoyance and a distraction and anything that they do achieve serves only their small special interest minority and NOT the general population.

Look at how many absurd concessions the ultra-religious parties have gotten from governments when they held the balance of power by electing only 1 or 2 members out of 100s.
Actually, over influence of fringe parties was one of the many aspects taken under consideration and one of the reasons why the Citizen's Assembly, 160 citizen's from all walks of life, who voted 95% in favour (so you claim that each and everyone of them thought the fast ferries were a good idea? Interesting), chose STV. Because it works with preferential ballots.

With preferential ballots, a candidate that doesn't get elected right off the bat, but is still in the running, will need the votes of his/her opposition to win a seat. So he/she will need to convince the voters of the opposition candidates to consider ranking him/her as a second or third choice. This won't happen with fringe parties because they generally only appeal to their core supporters. STV rewards candidates that have more inclusive, more broad based appeal.

Finally, the threshold that a single candidate needs to win election is around 15,000-20,000 votes. Fringe parties like the Communist and Sex Party only have around a few hundred votes in total; there's no way they could make up that gap. The Marijuana Party got 11,000 votes, but that's also spread across all of BC so they wouldn't come close either.
 
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