Question about Mutual Funds

cruiser

New member
Mar 17, 2007
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I wanted to ask the PERB audience about mutual funds...

How much "gain or growth" should you have in your mutual fund before you sell them?

I've held some for years and always wonder if there's ever a "ceiling" or limit on what they will reach, or do you just keep holding them for years?

How have others handled their mutual funds as far as to length of time they've held them, etc; amount of growth, etc.

Appreciate any feedback.

Cruiser
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
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vancouver
I hold mutual funds as part of my RRSP. I'll hold them until I retire.
If you don't need that money in the short term, leave it in because there are capital gains implications for cashing out.
 
I don't think there is a correct timeline or percentage. I cashed some of my mutual funds (held in RRSPs) not long ago (about 12% growth after 4 years) to use the homebuyers plan. Had I not decided to purchase a home I wouldn't have had reason to sell. I wish TFSP contributions weren't limited to $5000/year :)
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
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Calgary
I myself think mutual funds are a waste of time/money.The fees paid for them are disgustingly high and the return is negligable.Individual well chosen stocks are the best bet for a decent return be it either a short position looking at the upside or a long term growth position with regards to compounding dividends.

That being said playing the stock market is not for everyone....I have a wishywashy friend who had 50 grand in liquid cash when the market melted down in 2008...I told him to buy into grand cache coal when it was sitting at 50 cents a share and his attitude was "I could lose it all"....well the short story is that stock has topped out at $8.50 a share in the last 6 months...meaning that he could have turned 50 grand into 600 grand....I also told a couple co-workers about this potential gold mine and the response was "I dont understand the stock market"....my reply was "buy low and sell high you jackass"...they did not take the advice though.

All I can say is do your research and look at the fundamentals of stocks....Ford announced their 3rd quarter results yesterday and their profits were up 68% from a year earlier....and they have posted a profit for 6 straight quarters..pretty impressive for a company that mortgaged itself to the neck a short time ago and took no bail out cash from the US government.

Do your research and invest with knowledge gained by that hard work....or buy mutual funds and get chicken feed.

Just my .02

SR
 

cruiser

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Mar 17, 2007
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I myself think mutual funds are a waste of time/money.The fees paid for them are disgustingly high and the return is negligable.Individual well chosen stocks are the best bet for a decent return be it either a short position looking at the upside or a long term growth position with regards to compounding dividends.

Just my .02

SR
I will say that I hold mutual funds both inside and outside of my RRSP and it's the ones that are outside of my RRSP that I would consider selling (if I was going to sell any at all).

I did talk to my financial advisor about the stock market and going completely out of mutual funds. I do realize that I pay a good dollar in MER (management Expense Ratio) and could do better going completely with 100% stocks. My thing is that I don't have access to a computer during the day and can't watch the market minute by minute, as is needed to be a good investor.

Other input??
 

Bare_Facts

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Mar 13, 2006
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E-Town
If you're not comfortable with selecting individual stocks, and want lower MERs than mutual funds, consider exchange traded funds (etfs) - iShares, Madison Claymore etc. Yes you will need some sort of brokerage account and will pay fees buying and selling, but the MER ranges from around 0.2 - 0.5 %. You can track pretty much any index or sub-index you can think of these days, the funds will hold a basket of stocks to match the index they are following, and many even have dividend reinvestment plans where the dividends will buy more units (whole units) of the fund without any trading cost to you.
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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Mutual funds are actively managed.
So techically you shouldn't have to be concerned to sell, as the manager should be re-adjusting the funds holdings.
But ETF's have come a long way in the last 2-3 years. The investor not interested in picking individual stocks should look here.
Now they have so many exchange specific, country specific, industry specific ETFs.
You can really make some excellent portfolios just with a handful of etfs.
 

threepeat

New member
Sep 20, 2004
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Edmonton
I wanted to ask the PERB audience about mutual funds...

How much "gain or growth" should you have in your mutual fund before you sell them?

I've held some for years and always wonder if there's ever a "ceiling" or limit on what they will reach, or do you just keep holding them for years?

How have others handled their mutual funds as far as to length of time they've held them, etc; amount of growth, etc.

Appreciate any feedback.

Cruiser
As others have said, unfortunately there's no single right answer to your question, but for what it's worth I don't think there are many investments you can just buy and hold forever. Most business cycles last around ten to twenty years, so even if you choose correctly eventually you need to leave. That being said, if you could have somehow been smart enough to invest in gold in the 1970s, Japan in the 1980s, technology in the 1990s, and gold again in the 2000s, you would have done very well with only one trade every ten years. The trade for the 2010s will likely be energy.

I find it odd that so many people don't want to spend even a few minutes a week on their investments. When you think about how hard you work at your job to get ahead, the time spent on your future nest egg is comparatively small.

If you really want to keep the time spent on your investments to a minimum, I would say take your investment money and divide it into quarters: 25% into Canadian equities, 25% into bonds, 25% into commodities, and 25% into international equities. Over the course of the year, some things will go up and some will go down. At the end of the year, rebalance your portfolio so it is in equal 25% parts again. By definition you will be selling high and buying low, and this method has been proven to be very successful relative to buy-and-hold.

If you really really must buy something and forget about it, I say get a balanced fund with half Canadian equities, one quarter blue chip dividend paying stocks, and one quarter fixed income. Then hope the fund manager knows what they are doing.
 

cruiser

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Mar 17, 2007
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Hi Al, yes that was me. Definitely a lot of great picks on there.
Hi threepeat (you're a popular guy).

I'm another person that read Hubba's thread about investing and enjoyed it.

I wanted to ask you if you still have the spreadsheet because there were some popular stocks on it and they did quite well in the short time that that thread was alive. I went and purchased LVS just from what I read on that thread and am quite pleased on how it's doing.

Do you have a listing of the stocks and who suggested what stock to invest in ?
 

cruiser

New member
Mar 17, 2007
429
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If you're not comfortable with selecting individual stocks, and want lower MERs than mutual funds, consider exchange traded funds (etfs) - iShares, Madison Claymore etc. Yes you will need some sort of brokerage account and will pay fees buying and selling, but the MER ranges from around 0.2 - 0.5 %. You can track pretty much any index or sub-index you can think of these days, the funds will hold a basket of stocks to match the index they are following, and many even have dividend reinvestment plans where the dividends will buy more units (whole units) of the fund without any trading cost to you.
Mr. Bare:

I've considered ETF's but don't fully understand them.

Would you mind illustrating how they work (in a simple nature), and what kind of growth you've seen in them. Why have they taken so long to catch on and why is there only a few companys that offer them?

Appreciate any info you can offer.

thanks,
Cruiser
 

FunSugarDaddy

New member
Aug 15, 2008
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Since I make my living dispensing this type of advice and have a couple of financial planning and other designations, please allow me to offer a primer.

ETF's verses Mutual funds

The theory behind mutual funds it twofold. One is they offer you diversity in one investment and the second, more contentious issue is that most offer active management on the premise that they can beat the stock market. The bottom line, is they charge what is now (since etf's have come along) considered a premium for these services.


The first one is true, but what you may own at a particular point in time is often unknown. For example if you believe you own an equity fund, it's conceivable that a fair amount of that fund may be in cash, depending on various objectives and market conditions. Similarly you believe an income fund, implies safety and bond type instruments, when in fact it could be income trusts, which are essentially stocks that offer income and a return on capital.

As for the premise that they can beat the market, by and large this has been disproven. This can be disproven logically or empirically.

Logically if you knew one mutual fund could bet the market, common sense dictates you would own it, as would everyone else. You wouldn't buy other mutual funds which can't beat the market, so you'd own only the ones that could. Now if everyone did that, guess what, these funds would in fact become the market and therefore since they couldn't beat themselves, the expected return would the market less the MER's of the fund. Empirically there is strong evidence from economic and financial professors at various universities who have researched this issue, that one of the most important predictors of returns is the costs of a particular fund. The lower the cost the better. Essentially for the most part the evidence shows that while many active funds can marginally beat the market, they can't do so enough to cover their fees, which usually run around 2% for equities and 1% for fixed income. (or 25% of the expected return, if you think a fixed income product is going to give you a 4% rate of return)

ETF"s on the other hand say this. We too are divisified, because if you buy say the S&P/TSX 60 you're getting a market cap weight of all of these 60 stocks, and the ongoing cost isn't going to be in excess of 2% like some mutual funds, it's going to be .17. Why so low? Because we're not in the game of trying to beat the market. It is what it is, no cash holdings, no market timing, no betting on a particular stock, no betting on a particular sector. You're buying the market cheap, period end of story.

But they've branched out from this approach in terms of what they own and so you can now be in bonds, in dividend paying stocks, in financials (where obviously you are betting on a particular sector but this is a different etf), corporate bonds, and you can also get international exposure.

Where mutual funds, may still work are in some sectors, such as small cap, perhaps corporate bonds, (if the risk of default is high) and in emerging markets, where owning just the stock market stocks themselves may not be optimal. But costs matter, as does performance, so companies such as Phillips, Hager & North (PH&N) and Mawer, usually stand out because their ongoing costs (MER's) are lower than traditional mutual funds.

And currently there is a debate in the financial advisory business, about mutual funds, to the extent that advisors should be compensated for their expertise and trails, which form a part of the ongoing expense of a mutual fund, have traditionally been the method of payment. Other method of payment under scrutiny is that of deferred sales charge (DSC) funds. In this situation, which was common but is becoming less so, an advisor would take say $100,000 you have, put the money in a basket of mutual funds, and recieve about $5,000. However, this basically means these funds are locked in for a period of time (ie 5-6 years) and if they are withdrawn prior to that, YOU could be charged a redemption fee.

The problem with trailers, and other related amounts of payment, is that they are hidden and may have absolutely no bearing on the level of service you are receiving. In other words an advisor may be receiving far more money for the services they provide than is warranted, if say you went to see a lawyer, accountant or someone else who charges for their time.

So the industry, or profession, as some of us like to call it, is gravitating towards charging a fee for assets under management and then selling the type of products that are more aligned with the clients best long term interest.

As to the TFSA/RRSP issue and what you should hold in these accounts. It depends what your objectives are, If you're saving up for a downpayment, stick to safe investments, ie corporate/government bonds etc. If you're beyond that, then as part of a diversified portfolio, you'd likely keep your fixed income products in RRSP's to reduce your interest income, and your stocks outside your RRSP to take advantage of the lower capital gains income inclussion rate of 50%, and to offset any gains with capital losses.

Naturally I could go on and on about this topic, but one word of caution is that one should always invest with a purpose in mind and within the context of one's comfort zone, long term objectives, and risk tolerance, which for most people means a balanced portfolio.
 
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