Provincial Haul From the HST

[Cock Throppled]

In Falcon's budget he stated, "Revenue from the HST, which came into effect last July, was $4.176 billion."

Holy fucking shit - they scooped up OVER FOUR BILLION just from the HST. Anybody still think it isn't a tax grab of unprecedented proportions? And it will get worse and worse for the consumer.

 

[aznboi9]

Be careful with those numbers...that is the total HST they collected. It includes the portion of GST & PST they would have collection with the old system.

That makes sense. If you assume that we previously paid GST/PST on 80% of our puchases, then that works out to be an extra 835 million in collected sales tax revenue (not including income tax cuts), which is pretty close to the 800 million number that was previously reported.

 

[chilli]

In Falcon's budget he stated, "Revenue from the HST, which came into effect last July, was $4.176 billion."

Holy fucking shit - they scooped up OVER FOUR BILLION just from the HST. Anybody still think it isn't a tax grab of unprecedented proportions? And it will get worse and worse for the consumer.

Short answer is yes.

This is the largest transfer of tax burden from businesses and corporations to the consumer in BC's history.

Plus there are now many services/products being taxed that were not being taxed before.

Basically Ottawa blackmailed Ontario and BC into accepting it - and then knowing it was a bad deal for taxpayers the province tried to pull the wool over our eyes (and as you read a lot of the posts on these forums - unfortunately it worked).

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

Well then I guess the wool was also pulled over the eyes of taxpayers in the maritimes, Quebec and Ontario as well.

It's really strange hearing all this tax advice from people who haven't even taken a basic tax course. One of the first things you learn when taking a tax course is that taxing consumption is preferable to taxing income, for a variety of reasons, and that a VAT type of tax is one of the most efficient means of implementing a tax. That said, if we didn't collect an extra 800B or whatever the naysayers say we collected in this so called tax grab, then it stands to reason that our deficit would have been that much greater, or we would have had to spend less.

So the real question is; which of those options do you prefer? Our debt went up by 3.3B last year and now stands at 45.2B so if the HST hadn't been introduced, presumably this would have been higher by the 800B you mentioned, or expenses would have had to be reduced by a similar amount, or a combination of these two options.

That said, I do realize one of the key things that was managed extremely poorly was our expectations. A good tax or not, the fact was we were blindsided by it and told it would be revenue neutral, so there's certainly room for complaint, but the tax itself is a better method of collecting taxes than was the case under the PST/GST system, of that there's little doubt.

Short answer is yes.

This is the largest transfer of tax burden from businesses and corporations to the consumer in BC's history.

Plus there are now many services/products being taxed that were not being taxed before.

Basically Ottawa blackmailed Ontario and BC into accepting it - and then knowing it was a bad deal for taxpayers the province tried to pull the wool over our eyes (and as you read a lot of the posts on these forums - unfortunately it worked).

 

[huggzy]

Well then I guess the wool was also pulled over the eyes of taxpayers in the maritimes, Quebec and Ontario as well.

It's really strange hearing all this tax advice from people who haven't even taken a basic tax course. One of the first things you learn when taking a tax course is that taxing consumption is preferable to taxing income, for a variety of reasons, and that a VAT type of tax is one of the most efficient means of implementing a tax. That said, if we didn't collect an extra 800B or whatever the naysayers say we collected in this so called tax grab, then it stands to reason that our deficit would have been that much greater, or we would have had to spend less.

So the real question is; which of those options do you prefer?

Well, don't you think that there would need to be some changes in our income tax regime if you're going to impose VATs upon us then?

Which option do I prefer? Spend less of our fucking money.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Which option do I prefer? Spend less of our fucking money.

This is the first time I have agreed with you. But what would you cut?

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

I can live with that, but the most conservative government in our province is running up deficits, I can pretty guarantee that should the NDP get into power they're only going to spend more. So the political will doesn't seem to exist to spend less.

Well, don't you think that there would need to be some changes in our income tax regime if you're going to impose VATs upon us then?

Which option do I prefer? Spend less of our fucking money.

 

[huggzy]

I can live with that, but the most conservative government in our province is running up deficits, I can pretty guarantee that should the NDP get into power they're only going to spend more. So the political will doesn't seem to exist to spend less.

And this is what is most infuriating to me. With respect to the HST referendum, everyone keeps saying don't use it as a protest vote - vote the party out at election time. You know what, I will never, ever vote NDP. But now I can't vote Liberal either because of this shitstorm. So what the fuck are we supposed to do to communicate to these idiots to get some political will to cut spending?!?!?

 

[huggzy]

This is the first time I have agreed with you. But what would you cut?

I don't know because I'm not in their running things. But what I do know is that I can't afford to pay anymore - so don't come around reaching for my wallet going forward.

You don't agree with me on most things because you're happy to just take it up the ass from our politicians because they say its the way it must be, whereas I won't accept that...or at least I'm not going to just sit there and pretend I'm happy taking it up the ass.

 

[aznboi9]

And this is what is most infuriating to me. With respect to the HST referendum, everyone keeps saying don't use it as a protest vote - vote the party out at election time. You know what, I will never, ever vote NDP. But now I can't vote Liberal either because of this shitstorm. So what the fuck are we supposed to do to communicate to these idiots to get some political will to cut spending?!?!?

Then vote for the BC Conservatives. If they see the BC Cons rising in the polls, they have to pay attention to that because, at around 10% polling, vote splitting will start costing them seats and they'll definitely know that those votes are coming from disenfranchised Liberals (I can't imagine that many NDPers and Greens suddenly switching allegiance to BC Conservative). Honestly, the only way that any communication is going to have an impact is if it costs seats. Either that or actually write to your MP; that's what you're supposed to do. But to vote for an option that's going to make you pay more taxes, when you're angry about paying more taxes, makes no sense.

Secondly, it's not like there hasn't been an impact already. Post election, they were as low as they'd ever been in the polls, they had to go through the whole rigmarole of the townhalls leading to the pledge to cut the HST by 2%, they had an MLA leave caucus, they now have to worry about the possibility of the BC Cons siphoning votes, and Campbell got chased from office. Do you honestly think that they don't take notice of that stuff?

 

[whoisjohngalt]

I don't know...

That about sums it up.

 

[Ray]

if we didn't collect an extra 800B or whatever the naysayers say we collected in this so called tax grab,

Your numbers are off by a few decimal points.

 

[bcneil]

This is the first time I have agreed with you. But what would you cut?

This is the $64,000 question. But as mere citizens we dont get to see the actual spending, so noone really knows.

I work for a branch of the government, and there is lots of waste.
Some of it from having workers that cant be fired and many that recently get hired by the colour of their skin.

But some of it is just wacked right out. My department has had a hiring freeze for a couple years now.
BUT the amount of work that needs to be done, grows each years.
So instead of hiring an extra person or 2, we do overtime.....get time and 3/4ths. Double time Sunday.
I dont complain, cause I am taking on 500 extra hours a year. Lots of the guys are.

But the money we spent last fiscal alone on OT, could have hired 5 new workers.
But we dont hire, as a cost savings measure.
I just found out my shiney stapler I use 2-3 times a day, cost $200 from staples.

Last time I got a promotion, we have what are called competitions.
This is where they take a variety of workers from different departments to determine who gets the promotion.
Usually made up of a higher manager, couple mid managers, and a cross section of workers maybe 4-6.

This last promotion I applied for took 7 people, working on this competion for the most part, full-time hours. They were taken completely away from their main jobs for 7 months.
In the end, me and 2 other gents got promotions, that are basically $8000 a year raises.

The salaries alone to run this 7 month competion would have been $350,000-$400,000.
Then of course all the areas these people came from, probably do OT to make up for the lost work.
So could be half a million.....to give 3 guys $4/hr raises....I shit you not

Oh both other guys that got the raises....one retired within 9 months of getting it....he was 61
The other is 55 now, and plans to leave within 5 years.

 

[huggzy]

That about sums it up.

I'm not a douchebag like you who goes around pretending he knows everything and my solution isn't to just accept paying more taxes like you're obviously happy to do.

I know there's waste...and lots of it. But I don't know exactly where to start slashing.

However, it would be nice if people who do know did something about it. As bcneil outlines below it is absolutely clear that there's enormous waste occuring.

This is the $64,000 question. But as mere citizens we dont get to see the actual spending, so noone really knows.

I work for a branch of the government, and there is lots of waste.
Some of it from having workers that cant be fired and many that recently get hired by the colour of their skin.

But some of it is just wacked right out. My department has had a hiring freeze for a couple years now.
BUT the amount of work that needs to be done, grows each years.
So instead of hiring an extra person or 2, we do overtime.....get time and 3/4ths. Double time Sunday.
I dont complain, cause I am taking on 500 extra hours a year. Lots of the guys are.

But the money we spent last fiscal alone on OT, could have hired 5 new workers.
But we dont hire, as a cost savings measure.
I just found out my shiney stapler I use 2-3 times a day, cost $200 from staples.

Last time I got a promotion, we have what are called competitions.
This is where they take a variety of workers from different departments to determine who gets the promotion.
Usually made up of a higher manager, couple mid managers, and a cross section of workers maybe 4-6.

This last promotion I applied for took 7 people, working on this competion for the most part, full-time hours. They were taken completely away from their main jobs for 7 months.
In the end, me and 2 other gents got promotions, that are basically $8000 a year raises.

The salaries alone to run this 7 month competion would have been $350,000-$400,000.
Then of course all the areas these people came from, probably do OT to make up for the lost work.
So could be half a million.....to give 3 guys $4/hr raises....I shit you not

Oh both other guys that got the raises....one retired within 9 months of getting it....he was 61
The other is 55 now, and plans to leave within 5 years.

 

[Cock Throppled]

The HST is a cash cow - critics and supporters agree on that.

Huge amounts of money rolling in for the government to continue to waste, yes waste - not fund health, education or social services - waste.

The amount of money coming in will continue to increase under the HST as the economy improves. When the flow isn't enough - whap - another 1% gets added and we won't even notice because the main pain has already been inflicted now.

So, we all agree government spending and waste should be reduced, but where's the incentive as long as taxes like the HST open the tap on a never-ending supply.

Defeating the HST and pinching off the money pot is the only incentive for tax reform and getting businesses to pay their share instead of having a tax system based on scamming consumers.

As for needing taxes taken off business - that's like the race to the bottom in southern US states had where they end up with almost no business taxes to pay for social services.

 

[aznboi9]

The HST is a cash cow - critics and supporters agree on that.

Huge amounts of money rolling in for the government to continue to waste, yes waste - not fund health, education or social services - waste.

Oh, so we're back to the cash cow argument again? Because it wasn't that long ago that you posted about the huge hole in tax revenue that keeping the HST was going to create. Talk about flip-flopping.

The amount of money coming in will continue to increase under the HST as the economy improves.

And this is different from the GST/PST how?

So, we all agree government spending and waste should be reduced, but where's the incentive as long as taxes like the HST open the tap on a never-ending supply.

Defeating the HST and pinching off the money pot is the only incentive for tax reform and getting businesses to pay their share instead of having a tax system based on scamming consumers.

I see. So defeating the HST will remove the increases in sales tax revenue it generates as the economy increases. Except that we're replacing it with another sales tax that also generates increased tax revenue as the economy increases as well, and will charge us more taxes while doing it. That's good thinking.

As for needing taxes taken off business - that's like the race to the bottom in southern US states had where they end up with almost no business taxes to pay for social services.

Is this like your VAT argument that you tried to pull off?

 

[Cock Throppled]

No change in my arguments - the HST at 10% will create a hole in the economy because the government has seen what they haul in at 12% and the amount business should be paying is not being paid. The difference will be made up by consumers.

Check out how the states in the US with the lowest business taxes are faring.


Look, I don't care if you love having a sharp, rough stick rammed up your ass by our provincial government. Each to his own. Just don't ask me as a consumer who has been negatively impacted by the HST, don't ask me as a business owner who has been negatively impacted by the HST and don't ask my family, which has been negatively impacted by the HST to support it.

 

[aznboi9]

Look, I don't care if you love having a sharp, rough stick rammed up your ass by our provincial government. Each to his own. Just don't ask me as a consumer who has been negatively impacted by the HST, don't ask me as a business owner who has been negatively impacted by the HST and don't ask my family, which has been negatively impacted by the HST to support it.

I already know how you're going to vote and that you're not going to change. But you've also made it your mission to convince other people to do likewise. You can't have it both ways; if you're going try and persuade people to one viewpoint, then you also have to take it when other people with differing viewpoints do the same, especially if you present arguments that are disputable. If you can't handle that, then that's your problem, not mine.

Check out how the states in the US with the lowest business taxes are faring.

Such as this one. First of all, which states? You're very good about making vague claims but don't seem to back them up. Secondly, Alberta has one of the lowest business tax rates in North America and is among the richest provinces. So what? It's the same oversimplified reasoning that you applied with your VAT argument.

No change in my arguments - the HST at 10% will create a hole in the economy because the government has seen what they haul in at 12% and the amount business should be paying is not being paid. The difference will be made up by consumers.

And this one. Of course it's a change in your argument. First it was cash cow, then it was a hole in tax revenue, and now we're at a hole in tax revenue that will lead to a cash cow. You're all over the place. Do you really think that you're making a credible case for your position when you're contradicted by your own posts?

 

[Classic]

It always stuns me how people can make such simplified conclusions that the HST is bad or good based on how much more the tax has brought in compared to estimates.

Had the number been lower would the anti HST people suddenly say, well it is a good thing look at the numbers - no they wouldn't. Would such a number then give ammo to the pro HST people? No, it shouldn't.

You need to factor in economic activity into the calculations. A tiny percentage change up or down in economic growth has a significant impact on all types of tax revenue. So considering Canada and BC have done far better growth wise than the vast majority of the planet, save up and coming third world nations I would expect higher numbers.

Has anyone here actually done that analysis of economic growth vs revenue projections here? I know the answer.

Have we considered that businesses such as software and film production are huge beneficiaries of the tax and have been hiring like crazy? If you did then when someone gets a job, or a raise or the owners make more profit they...wait for it...spend some of that money. Hold on it gets better. This may come as a shock to most of you but when you spend money, like in a retail store or service establishment...you pay some tax. I know, I know who knew eh?

So if you spend more...you actually get more tax revenue. Stunning isn't it? Well actually you need a double digit IQ to understand this stuff so I get why most people debating the HST can't figure it out.

Now is the HST a panacea that will boom our economy, no it isn't. Are we in a heap of trouble when portable industries like film, software, manufacturing go to jurisdictions with a VAT type tax like Ontario when we don't have it anymore? Yes we are.

Oh and those increased costs people talk about...it is called inflation. Inflation is primarily caused by the creation of money via low interest rates, not tax policy unless your VAT tax is very high. The Europeans pay 20% and we freak out about 12???

By the way a bunch of services I now pay HST on has seen the proprietor in one case lower his price to keep the overall cost the same (fitness membership) and others have seen the normal year to year increase so again no difference in price (yearly sports fees). So the doom and gloom has actually not hit my wallet much.

Feel sorry for the low income families who will lose out on those cheques each month that pay them more than they could ever shell out in any higher tax paid. They lose out no matter how you calculate it.

Okay I am done now. Guess how I voted? No, you can't?

 

[Classic]

No change in my arguments - the HST at 10% will create a hole in the economy because the government has seen what they haul in at 12% and the amount business should be paying is not being paid. The difference will be made up by consumers.

Check out how the states in the US with the lowest business taxes are faring.


Look, I don't care if you love having a sharp, rough stick rammed up your ass by our provincial government. Each to his own. Just don't ask me as a consumer who has been negatively impacted by the HST, don't ask me as a business owner who has been negatively impacted by the HST and don't ask my family, which has been negatively impacted by the HST to support it.

Could you give specific examples of this negative impact. Be sure to include evidence that excludes other factors that could have caused this so you can be sure it is HST related. Also as a business owner please tell us what expenses you now no longer pay 7% tax on and what percentage that is of your total expenses. After all you could only get PST back if what you purchased went into your final product (i.e. lumbar to build a desk). You had to pay the 7% when you bought a computer for the office or supplies, which you no longer do under the HST as businesses get that credited back.

Not mocking your point of view, I really want to know.