Prostitution a victimless crime?

[rockinbods35]

I have been pooning for sometime and rarely did I ever give much thought that when I procure the services of an SP I may actually be doing this woman/lady a disservice.

I see escorts for the same reason many others do, it's simpler, cheaper and I like that I can pick who I want when I want and spend within my budget for the kind of experience I am looking for.

That being said there is a disturbing trend towards young girls being roped into this industry, and subsequently lots of drug use an abuse. My patronage of such ladies although infrequent, certainly doesn't help them out, regardless of how much money they make per visit. It seems to create a bit of a morale dilemma.

The easy way out is of course, just don't see escorts anymore, then no issues. Or be more careful about who you see.

I know most of us don't think about how seeing these women affects them, its just troubling to me when I talk to escorts who admit they hate what they do, are disgusted with themselves for doing it, and turn to drugs to alleviate those feelings. Then of course we know the vicious downward spiral this creates.

So the question is? Is Prostitution really the victimless crime many claim it is? A consensual act between consenting adults in which the buyer and seller comes to terms regarding the trading of sex for money.

Maybe I am off base, or maybe we should give more thought to who we see if we choose to see escorts? Or maybe we should just not give a shit and say, "I just want to get laid, get my rocks off, etc and you get money for it, it's a consensual act, so what's the problem?!"

Some discussion/views on the subject:

http://crime.about.com/od/prostitution/a/prostitution.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime

http://prostitution.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000119


most of these links are a few years old but gave me pause, perhaps others will weigh in and give their opinion pro or con, or perhaps this is pandora's box, best left unopened or not discussed in this forum.

I am just curious how both SP's and pooners view this..granted most of the SP's in red on this board are likely not part of the statistics listed in this article...maybe they are more in the minority, than the majority. I don't really know. Perhaps they have friends that are, or know of others that are.

I know at the end of the day, prostitution is never going away, nor am I saying it should.

Perhaps I am just becoming more reflective as I mature, or maybe I have just seen too many girls ruined by this industry and wonder is it really the victimless crime I once thought it was?

 

[susi]

the article is totally biased and based on the research of melissa farley. the is a complaint launched against her for unethical research involving human beings.

she starts with a hypothesis that all sex workers are abused and all sex work is bad and then works to prove so.

for example, her research was not given any weight in the recent supreme court decisions as her research does not comply with canadian government standards for ethcal research.

you should also give not weight to her falsified and biased research findings. she's a hater, plain and simple.

they will use any arguement they can to uphold their philosophy and goals, they do not care that their opinions and so called research findings are costing people their lives.

try to remember that most of what you read in this area will be coming from wealthy, priveledged people who have no lived experience and in many cases have never spoken to an actual sex worker.

try not to get to hard on yourself as somehow aiding pimps and abuse. yes it happens but not to the extent that they say it does.

love susie

 

[vancity_cowboy]

i think there are more victims due to this industry than we like to admit

there are the women that you have indicated above. not only the ones who really don't profit that much per session or even per day, and not only the ones living with self disgust, but the ones who are missing that critical stage of learning the value of a dollar. to some, the difference between going out for a frugal night of fun on the town and having enough money to really blow a wad of dough on a wild time is just a matter of holding their nose (in some cases literally, lol) a few more times a week and voila... it's party time folks!

they are definitely not learning valuable life lessons

also there is the damage done to their own families by married pooners. there are many examples that could be given, but the simplest one is financial. even a frugal, careful pooner spends a minimum of a couple of months of university expenses for one of his kids in a year of pooning. multiply that by a 20 year pooning career and you've just denied a child a law degree

however, balance that with the degree of victimization that has been inflicted... not murder, not violence...

at worst, in the sp's case, you are allowing her to perpetuate her immaturity. but many of them ARE immature, and whether or not they are supporting themselves by prostitution, they would still never learn the lessons required to adjust to 'normal' (whatever that is) life

in the case of the married pooner's children, does he really spend any more of the children's legacy than say an avid skier, hockey player (or season ticketed fan), a gambler, a sport fisherman, a boater, a race car enthusiast? probably not, and it's unlikely any of the foregoing would be accused of creating victims of his children

so for me, the jury is definitely out on this topic. i'd like to hear what others think

 

[jesuschrist]

Yes it is victimless unless she was forced into it physically by a pimp or by human trafficking network (where often coercion is used).

Economics, drug addiction, past familial abuse - these are not reasons to say the prostitute is a victim. Many women cope with economics, drug addiction, abuse, etc., without resorting to prostitution. They have their own will, they make their own choices. You can be a victim of your own choice, but that doesn't make you a victim - it just makes you stupid.

As for those who say it is disgusting work, but weren't ever forced into it, I would regard that as I would regard anybody who hates their job. Quit then!

 

[Dgodus]

i think there are more victims due to this industry than we like to admit

there are the women that you have indicated above. not only the ones who really don't profit that much per session or even per day, and not only the ones living with self disgust, but the ones who are missing that critical stage of learning the value of a dollar. to some, the difference between going out for a frugal night of fun on the town and having enough money to really blow a wad of dough on a wild time is just a matter of holding their nose (in some cases literally, lol) a few more times a week and voila... it's party time folks!

they are definitely not learning valuable life lessons

also there is the damage done to their own families by married pooners. there are many examples that could be given, but the simplest one is financial. even a frugal, careful pooner spends a minimum of a couple of months of university expenses for one of his kids in a year of pooning. multiply that by a 20 year pooning career and you've just denied a child a law degree

however, balance that with the degree of victimization that has been inflicted... not murder, not violence...

at worst, in the sp's case, you are allowing her to perpetuate her immaturity. but many of them ARE immature, and whether or not they are supporting themselves by prostitution, they would still never learn the lessons required to adjust to 'normal' (whatever that is) life

in the case of the married pooner's children, does he really spend any more of the children's legacy than say an avid skier, hockey player (or season ticketed fan), a gambler, a sport fisherman, a boater, a race car enthusiast? probably not, and it's unlikely any of the foregoing would be accused of creating victims of his children

so for me, the jury is definitely out on this topic. i'd like to hear what others think

Excellent points.

To expand on some and maybe add a couple things.

Valuable life lessons apply not only to finances (I've been told this by a woman "it's pretty easy to blow 800 bucks on a purse when you think you're just going to make it back that night anyways, but then you start not making that in a night however you still find yourself spending like you will be"); but also to interpersonal relations. I dont simply mean things like dating either.

People in the so called "real world" are generally required to put up with some behavior from those in their lives that serve a purpose (dont mean that to sound cold, but no better way to put it) as generally, depending on what they mean to you, they aren't easily replaced. There is a give and take. However within the industry people (both clients and providers) are largely disposable. At the slightest red flag you can simply put someone aside (for a period of time or permanently) and quite easily find someone else. It's a bad habit to form and depending on how much you're involved with this industry it can permeat (spl?) into your normal day to day existance outside of the business as it can make you very very lazy when dealing with others.

The amount of enabling which occurs within the industry is probably higher than most elsewhere. Clients pay and get told what they want to hear wether they are right or wrong (It's been done to me to the point I've thought really quickly "you really cant mean that"). Providers are usually attractive women who provide sexually gratifying encounters - so yes I'm sure many a hobbyist tell them what they want to hear regardless of wether they are right or wrong (hell I know I've been guilty of that as well). In both cases you're creating situations where the person always believes themselves to be "right", creates a very self centered view of the world.

It would seem at first glance those two paragraphs contradict each other, but generally we enable someone's behavior in regards to them dealing with an outside source however as soon as the behavior is directed at us (or our behavior directed at them) it is very easy to just flip a switch and shut it all down.

How about the jaded and cynical view of the world the industry fosters? I've actually heard that said by a provider as well. After a certain point someone is going to see/hear a sentence but immediatly think it means something else. Case in point, on xmas eve and nye I got happy holidays greetings from an escort I hadnt seen in awhile, my immediate thought was "lol marketing/solicitation". Plenty other instances through conversation with escorts which just reinforce the point that this industry more than many, which are so readily available, creates cynicism.

Most of this board is centered around Vancouver; clients and providers who reside, work, and play in Vancouver. What about those who tour and spend significant time away from "home". Personally I work/live with the same situation, I often joke that I'm homeless. Depending on how much they tour and how much time they do (or do not) take off is going to vastly affect their lives. I actually see this a great deal in my own occupation. We spend 21 days at work, then 7 days off. The divorce rate is massive, I hear many complaints of fathers not having sound relationships with their children and people's circle of friends is largely the others that they work with. In a situation like the industry provides (ie fantasy world vs real world), compounded with some of the things said earlier it's a very unhealthy situation for a woman to put herself in when her circle is mostly made up of other escorts and clients. I read a great quote regarding this "if you dont have a fulfilling life outside of the industry, you shouldn't be involved with the industry"

So with regards to actual victims? I dont know, all I can do is hope the money I'm handing over is all going to the lady herself and she's there for her own reasons. But with regards to what this business does to someone? I'm sure for every person that has their head on straight and all their ducks in a row there are a couple people who dont and maybe a person who is a complete mess. Yes that applies to all facets of life and many many occupations, but in the short time I've been involved with escorts (just over a year) I've seen/heard more evidence of it than anywheres else (and I'm not even including things I've read off of this or other boards, only from personal dealings).

Disclaimer: yes I'm aware that providers endure much to do what they do, please understand there are many others who endure much in other professions as well.

Not a simple question for sure

 

[Tugela]

Unless a girl is forced into it, it is a consensual act, no matter what else is going on in her life.

How often do you see people agonising over this when it comes to intimacy with women who are non-prostitutes, but have similar issues to the ones the mentioned by the OP? Like never.

These women are adults and make the choices they make. People should stop thinking of them as children.

 

[yazoo]

Well first of all it is not a crime. And the arguments about not learning the value of money could be made for almost any high-paying job.

It is one of the few interactions between the wealthy and the poor where the poor don't get exploited for minimum wage. I think you could find a lot better examples of victimhood elsewhere.

 

[BallzDeep]

i think maybe victimless is perhaps the wrong word to use.

i get that most women make a conscious choice by doing this type of work. thus its consensual. but i think if you honestly look at the average garden variety escort youll find that this line of work takes away more than it ever gives back. its like an empty black hole.

save me the womens empowerment diatribe because i dont really see it that way. sure many save go to school and move on to better things, but most dont. for most this becomes their lives. theyre not proud of what they do. they dont look at themselves in the mirror and say gee wow im an amazing escort. i actually feel sort of sorry for these girls. posting all day. secluding themselves from friends. waiting and hoping the next guy comes ontime or comes at all. when they do this because its the only thing they know how to do. when it becomes more of a need than a want. i feel guilty sometimes like im aiding and abetting their emotional demise.

i dont think your average escort is rockstar champagne glasses and red carpet lifestyles. id wager its a pretty sad and depressing life. ive seen girls get sucked in and become a shell of their former selves in a matter of months. sure it can be drugs. sure it can be personal dramas. but i feel choice or not its the prostitution that inevitably starts the viscious cycle. it all seems so empty to me.

i find myself pooning far and far less because of it.

 

[susi]

i think maybe victimless is perhaps the wrong word to use.

i get that most women make a conscious choice by doing this type of work. thus its consensual. but i think if you honestly look at the average garden variety escort youll find that this line of work takes away more than it ever gives back. its like an empty black hole.

save me the womens empowerment diatribe because i dont really see it that way. sure many save go to school and move on to better things, but most dont. for most this becomes their lives. theyre not proud of what they do. they dont look at themselves in the mirror and say gee wow im an amazing escort. i actually feel sort of sorry for these girls. posting all day. secluding themselves from friends. waiting and hoping the next guy comes ontime or comes at all. when they do this because its the only thing they know how to do. when it becomes more of a need than a want. i feel guilty sometimes like im aiding and abetting their emotional demise.

i dont think your average escort is rockstar champagne glasses and red carpet lifestyles. id wager its a pretty sad and depressing life. ive seen girls get sucked in and become a shell of their former selves in a matter of months. sure it can be drugs. sure it can be personal dramas. but i feel choice or not its the prostitution that inevitably starts the viscious cycle. it all seems so empty to me.

i find myself pooning far and far less because of it.

i think we all need to be careful about the assumptions we make about the effects of this job. many jobs are soul taxing and i can tell you being an sp is way better. at least as an sp, you can afford to take a day off.

one example, garbage collector. i am sure garbage collectors don't wake up in the morning and say wow, i am an amazing garbage collector. or toilette cleaner or collection agency phone person or any number of jobs that are mundane or considered undesirable by society.

you biases about the way sp's live and their motives for working in this industry are defining your interpretation of our lives and happiness. bottom line is, you are not an sp and so cannot create an informed opinion as a result.

if we were to believe the rhetoric around why men poon all of you would be writhing, hairy palmed perverts looking for little girls vagina's to enslave and rape....should we believe that because someone said so, that this is the case? that all pooners are wealthy priveldeged men who feel entitled to access to women's bodies? that they have no inherent repsect for women in general and are out to degrade women at any chance?

while i am not a pooner, i can from my vast experience...ehemmm....form an opinion that counters that completely. pooners are from many different backgrounds and purchase for many different reasons. in most cases, owning/enslaving/raping little girls is not it. lonliness, loss, stress, fear of mortality, need for human contact...these are the prevelant reasons i have noted.

so again, please try not to be so hard on yourself for purchasing. you are manufacturing these ideas in your mind and they really don't have a place in reality.

the same researcher you noted did research on pooners found here;

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/c-prostitution-men-who-buy-sex.html

should we believe what she says? i don't....

love susieXXXO

 

[DavidMR]

After a few months I realized I was totally turned on by the 'stranger sex' and then remembered that I knew girls who made a living doing what I was doing.
So I posted ads and slowly revised my marketing to suit what I like, the kinky stuff lol.

A very interesting story, Melody. Hope you're finding the satisfaction, and income, you're seeking.

More generally, there are doctrinaire people on both sides of this "issue". I would, as a consumer, be quite disappointed if the Rape Relief/Swedish Approach side were to prevail in terms of law and policy. OTOH, when I see a lady walking the street, I have to wonder what the Hell.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Oh Susi you're one of my favorite people.

I second that emoticon :nod:

 

[vancity_cowboy]

@Electra

wow, what a positive story and outlook

thank you very much for that... :nod:

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Now that I have discovered the gem that is Alberta I am quite satisfied. I love working there! Vancouver is fun, but Alberta is something else entirely, sorry Van boys but the Albertans have won my heart.

dang... we lost another one to those dang cowboys from alberta!!

hmmm... wait a minute...

 

[vancity_cowboy]

@ farabundo

wow, this thread is really bringing out some interesting personal stories - i can't believe it

thank you for that

 

[BallzDeep]

i think we all need to be careful about the assumptions we make about the effects of this job. many jobs are soul taxing and i can tell you being an sp is way better. at least as an sp, you can afford to take a day off.

one example, garbage collector. i am sure garbage collectors don't wake up in the morning and say wow, i am an amazing garbage collector. or toilette cleaner or collection agency phone person or any number of jobs that are mundane or considered undesirable by society.

you biases about the way sp's live and their motives for working in this industry are defining your interpretation of our lives and happiness. bottom line is, you are not an sp and so cannot create an informed opinion as a result.

if we were to believe the rhetoric around why men poon all of you would be writhing, hairy palmed perverts looking for little girls vagina's to enslave and rape....should we believe that because someone said so, that this is the case? that all pooners are wealthy priveldeged men who feel entitled to access to women's bodies? that they have no inherent repsect for women in general and are out to degrade women at any chance?

while i am not a pooner, i can from my vast experience...ehemmm....form an opinion that counters that completely. pooners are from many different backgrounds and purchase for many different reasons. in most cases, owning/enslaving/raping little girls is not it. lonliness, loss, stress, fear of mortality, need for human contact...these are the prevelant reasons i have noted.

so again, please try not to be so hard on yourself for purchasing. you are manufacturing these ideas in your mind and they really don't have a place in reality.

the same researcher you noted did research on pooners found here;

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/c-prostitution-men-who-buy-sex.html

should we believe what she says? i don't....

love susieXXXO

i dont feel you represent the average working girl though. youre not afflicted with a pimp, the vice of drug abuse nor do you work solely to make ends meet. your opinion is more the rosey version of a working girl youd love for us to all believe is reality. i wish it were the case i really do. but you cant really tell me the average escort lives under the same sense of self worth and security i can almost unequivocally say this isnt the case.

ive seen many women much like the OP battle severe bouts of depression. deal with the daily mental anguish and defeat because this is what they do. they arent the least bit proud of themselves. if escorting was so glamorous more girls would proudly state so on their linkedin and facebook profiles their careers. if this line of work was so glamorous nobody would be hiding their identities and covering their faces out of shame.

save for a very select few i really havent seen any great success stories come from prostitution. i still feel like its a meaningless pursuit other than my own greed and desire for gratification even if for an hour at a time.

 

[jesuschrist]

Ok I just remembered, yes, I've been victimized by prostitutes. So no, it's not a victimless crime. We've been preyed upon and exploited. It's time for men to stand up and be counted as the silent victims of prostitution no more!!!!

 

[Dgodus]

Ok I just remembered, yes, I've been victimized by prostitutes. So no, it's not a victimless crime. We've been preyed upon and exploited. It's time for men to stand up and be counted as the silent victims of prostitution no more!!!!

Sorry I missed that, my ears were blocked off by a ladies legs.

 

[East Detroit]

Susi

Your opinion is definitely respected as is the effort you've put into legitimizing this trade. But, at times you almost come across as a partisan to this particular cause. No mention is made about our sisters who change names to escape stalkers while they espouse how wonderful this business is. No mention is made of the vile conditions street walkers work in. You once worked the DTES did you not? Were you not victimized by Pickton? How did you feel in those days about what you had to do? Did you feel empowered in that situation?

The whole rose garden picture drawn by some women is detrimental to the sex trade. It sends an confusing message to males especially males who are newer pooners. The path to a cleaning up this industry is engaging males and being honest with them. Good men become our allies in the push for change and safer working conditions.

 

[rockinbods35]

You know I am glad now that I posted this topic for discussion, it has proved very illuminating. I especially appreciate the stories from our ladies (SPs) and would encourage more to share their experiences so we can each get a better perspective about how this industry has impacted you, for good or ill.

It's just hard for me to see how some of the SP's I have seen regularly over the years go down the wrong path, be it from pimps, drugs, or personal issues, and not think to myself. Did I contribute in some way to this downfall? Every time I spent money to see her was I destroying a little part of her each time?...A little of her self esteem, a little of her self worth?

I know I can't put it on myself, I would drive myself crazy if I did. But I can't help but wonder, what is it about the ladies that make it through to the other side of this potentially destructive lifestyle to emerge on the other side healthy, whole human beings, that differs from the ladies that are destroyed by this?...Why do some people sink and others swim?

 

[Dgodus]

It's just hard for me to see how some of the SP's I have seen regularly over the years go down the wrong path, be it from pimps, drugs, or personal issues, and not think to myself. Did I contribute in some way to this downfall? Every time I spent money to see her was I destroying a little part of her each time?...A little of her self esteem, a little of her self worth?

you sound like either a really nice guy or a very well skilled bs'er.

So you can also think of it this way....

If you go in, treat the woman with respect, decency, understanding, and very nice. Allow things to happen instead of forcing any action (basically two people just getting together, not a escort/client deal). Try to give her something out of the experience she can enjoy as well (with the understanding that it's probably the positive social interaction more than the sex she'll enjoy). Give her a couple genuine laughs, get a couple genuine "aw thank you" from her. Then more than likely you've been a better part of her day and maybe made a shit day just that little better.

You have a choice. Take what positive you can out of it. Think of only the negative and end up needlessly beating yourself up over it. Or stop seeing escorts.... Take your pick.