Asian Fever

Prohibitionist: Don't ignore the real issue on prostitution‏

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,496
388
83
57
@the Meat Market!!!lol
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...y-dont-ignore-the-real-issue-on-prostitution/

Julia Beazley: Don’t ignore the real issue on prostitution
Julia Beazley, National Post | 13/06/17 | Last Updated: 13/06/13 4:41 PM ET

Last week, an article in these pages (Legalize the Sex Trade, Kate Shannon and Sandra Ka Hon Chu, June 11), saw the authors declare that “the science is unequivocal: criminalization of sex work in Canada, and globally, has been an abject failure in protecting sex workers from violence, predation and murder.” While I might question which particular scientific studies the authors were referring to, I don’t disagree that the laws have failed to protect. The criminalization of sex work — more specifically, of people who are being prostituted — has indeed failed.

Canada’s existing laws have proven ineffective at discouraging prostitution and protecting women. But the evidence is unequivocal that decriminalization or legalization of prostitution has been a greater failure. Countries that have legalized prostitution have found it neither provides more control over criminal behaviour nor offers greater protection for women from violence. It has also led to increased rates of sex trafficking.

The only model of law that has proven effective is the so-called “Nordic” model, first enacted in Sweden more than a decade ago. This model recognizes the vast majority of prostituted persons are not for sale by choice. Sweden’s law focuses its punitive powers on the johns, the pimps and the traffickers.

Swedish legislators started from the premise that prostitution is only and ever a form of sexual violence and exploitation of vulnerable women, men and children. Rather than try to manage or control prostitution, they determined to abolish it, establishing legal and social measures that take aim at the roots of sexual exploitation. Under this model, prostituted persons are decriminalized and those who purchase sexual services are criminalized; with fines geared to income and possible imprisonment. It has proven to be the most successful prostitution policy developed in a democratic society; and has been replicated in Norway, Iceland and is in various stages of consideration in France, Israel and Ireland. Targeting the demand has been demonstrated to be the most effective means of reducing rates of prostitution and sex trafficking.

Why is this? Because the violence experienced by women in prostitution is not rooted in the laws on paper, or in how they stand up to a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The violence directed at women in prostitution is rooted in the demand for paid access to women’s bodies — and the fundamental inequality that underlies this sense of entitlement.

The reality too often ignored in debate over which laws are best is that prostitution itself is inherently dangerous. It’s not the laws that endanger women in prostitution. It’s not the street corners or the alleyways that prey on, rape, assault and murder women. It’s the pimps, traffickers and buyers whose disrespect and devaluation of those women goes unchecked. To suggest that if prostituted women had time to make better choices about which customers to accept, or to negotiate the price and acts they will perform, they would be less subject to violence, is to put the responsibility for reducing violence squarely on the wrong shoulders.

In Sweden, children are taught in school from a young age that the purchase of sex is not just illegal, it’s unacceptable; it’s violence against women, and contrary to gender equality

The violence is rooted in the underlying view among the people, mostly men, that purchase them that women in prostitution are somehow fundamentally different from their mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters. This misperception justifies treatment of women as objects to be bought and sold. The very existence of prostitution requires a subclass of people who are available to be bought, sold and rented; people understood to be somehow just a little less equal than everyone else. The Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia have discovered that legalizing prostitution does not change this.

A key to the success experienced in Sweden is a public awareness campaign that accompanied the change in law. Children are taught in school from a young age that the purchase of sex is not just illegal, it’s unacceptable; it’s violence against women, and contrary to gender equality. This may be the most effective in the long run, because children are growing up with a different understanding of what respect between the sexes means.

If we truly want to stop the violence experienced by women in prostitution — and I believe we all agree at least on that point — let’s do as Sweden did, and tackle the problem at its roots.

National Post

Julia Beazley is a Policy Analyst with The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,496
388
83
57
@the Meat Market!!!lol
here's my response/ comment....

once again, the swedish model of criminalization is held up as successful. have these prohibitionists even read the reports about the increasing violence there? the cherry picking of data which suits the moral stance of cetain groups ignores the lives and safety of sex working people such as me, in favour of some idealogical approach which comprimises the safety of my community, has become one of the biggest problem facing us in our fight for emmancipation

i am surprised that the national post would publish such a twisted interpretation of the facts and which promotes debunked data as fact.

where is ethics in jounalism around this issue? where was the fact checking before publishing a story which will contribute to the on going harm of my community?

i always hear from journalists that "we need both sides of the story"....

it seems in order to fulfill that need media are willing to publish anything and have cast their ethics to the side in pursuit of their story. at what point will this kind of article be recongnized for what it is?

it is hate speach and promotion of hatred.

the worst part is that people believe what they read! its affecting policy and deepening our marginalization across this country.

i do not need a mostly male governmet making laws in regard to where and under what circumstances i can allow access to my body.

keep your laws, morals, religion and ideology OFF MY BODY!!!!
 

BORKO

Everything is AWESOME!!!
Jun 3, 2013
1,163
0
36
Sexy Fun Land
here's my response/ comment....

once again, the swedish model of criminalization is held up as successful. have these prohibitionists even read the reports about the increasing violence there? the cherry picking of data which suits the moral stance of cetain groups ignores the lives and safety of sex working people such as me, in favour of some idealogical approach which comprimises the safety of my community, has become one of the biggest problem facing us in our fight for emmancipation

i am surprised that the national post would publish such a twisted interpretation of the facts and which promotes debunked data as fact.

where is ethics in jounalism around this issue? where was the fact checking before publishing a story which will contribute to the on going harm of my community?

i always hear from journalists that "we need both sides of the story"....

it seems in order to fulfill that need media are willing to publish anything and have cast their ethics to the side in pursuit of their story. at what point will this kind of article be recongnized for what it is?

it is hate speach and promotion of hatred.

the worst part is that people believe what they read! its affecting policy and deepening our marginalization across this country.

i do not need a mostly male governmet making laws in regard to where and under what circumstances i can allow access to my body.

keep your laws, morals, religion and ideology OFF MY BODY!!!!
My understanding was that the Swedish model of decriminalization was enforced fairly laxly against clients, in that most of the people charged got minimal fines, is that not the case? Also, if you have some data about the negative effects of this law can you post it? I'm curious and concerned about this law being put into place in Canada.
 

Corbin

Member
Aug 16, 2003
49
1
8
Interesting how many years ago prostitution was demonized simply on the basis that it was morally wrong. But now, opponents have realized the moral argument is a very tenuous one since the idea of telling consenting adults what they do with their bodies, regardless of whether money is exchanged or not, is none of their business.
So, the arguments has now shifted, and we are to believe that no woman is capable of making an informed decision about being a prostitute, and even if she could, the act of engaging in sex for money is a violent act against her.

That's so insulting to the intelligent, entirely capable women who choose this line of work willingly, and enjoy doing it. And yes I know, there's obviously some that choose this line of work willingly and don't enjoy doing it, but isn't that the same with any line of work?

It's a given that no one should ever be forced into doing something against her will. But this is an entirely separate issue. The fact that moral watchdogs are now using the enslavement, violence against women argument as an all encompassing condemnation of prostitution is a dishonest tactic designed to hide the fact that the profession can exist with entirely willingly participants who are not being exploited or abused.
 

mimi

New member
Oct 9, 2008
755
11
0
55
Lower Mainland
"...Children are taught in school from a young age that the purchase of sex is not just illegal, it’s unacceptable; it’s violence against women, and contrary to gender equality. This may be the most effective in the long run, because children are growing up with a different understanding of what respect between the sexes means."

Really? They talk about prostitution in classrooms of young children? I know Europeans are more open minded on many subjects, but, this sounds like bullshit...idealistic bullshit.
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,496
388
83
57
@the Meat Market!!!lol
My understanding was that the Swedish model of decriminalization was enforced fairly laxly against clients, in that most of the people charged got minimal fines, is that not the case? Also, if you have some data about the negative effects of this law can you post it? I'm curious and concerned about this law being put into place in Canada.
here' a couple but there are many;

http://www.aidslaw.ca/publications/interfaces/downloadFile.php?ref=2103

http://feministire.wordpress.com/20...at-violence-decreases-under-the-nordic-model/

No, new research does NOT show that violence decreases under the Nordic model

Posted on January 24, 2013 by Wendy Lyon

[Update: in response to communication from Feminist Current's Meghan Murphy, I am happy to clarify that the article critiqued below is not a "Feminist Current piece" but a Sam Berg piece which Feminist Current merely hosted.]

There’s been a bit of a social media buzz over this article on a radical feminist website, which claims that a recent Pro Sentret report from Norway – which you can read in English here – shows that “violence decreases under the Nordic model”. The author backs up her claims with an impressive array of graphs (and a fair smattering of ad hominems), and unsurprisingly receives glowing praise in her comments from people who were clearly predisposed to believe anything she said on the subject anyway.

I hate to burst their bubble. Well, actually I don’t.

The author kindly linked to one of my own posts on the report, though she seems not to have read it. If she had, she would have noticed that very near the start I referred to “methodological limitations” that made it unsafe to draw cause-and-effect conclusions from the study. At the time I didn’t feel it important to get into those limitations, but I will now.
 

BORKO

Everything is AWESOME!!!
Jun 3, 2013
1,163
0
36
Sexy Fun Land
here' a couple but there are many;

http://www.aidslaw.ca/publications/interfaces/downloadFile.php?ref=2103

http://feministire.wordpress.com/20...at-violence-decreases-under-the-nordic-model/

No, new research does NOT show that violence decreases under the Nordic model

Posted on January 24, 2013 by Wendy Lyon

[Update: in response to communication from Feminist Current's Meghan Murphy, I am happy to clarify that the article critiqued below is not a "Feminist Current piece" but a Sam Berg piece which Feminist Current merely hosted.]

There’s been a bit of a social media buzz over this article on a radical feminist website, which claims that a recent Pro Sentret report from Norway – which you can read in English here – shows that “violence decreases under the Nordic model”. The author backs up her claims with an impressive array of graphs (and a fair smattering of ad hominems), and unsurprisingly receives glowing praise in her comments from people who were clearly predisposed to believe anything she said on the subject anyway.

I hate to burst their bubble. Well, actually I don’t.

The author kindly linked to one of my own posts on the report, though she seems not to have read it. If she had, she would have noticed that very near the start I referred to “methodological limitations” that made it unsafe to draw cause-and-effect conclusions from the study. At the time I didn’t feel it important to get into those limitations, but I will now.
Are there any studies that compare the Nordic model with countries that have legalized prostitution?
 
here's my response/ comment....

once again, the swedish model of criminalization is held up as successful. have these prohibitionists even read the reports about the increasing violence there? the cherry picking of data which suits the moral stance of cetain groups ignores the lives and safety of sex working people such as me, in favour of some idealogical approach which comprimises the safety of my community, has become one of the biggest problem facing us in our fight for emmancipation

i am surprised that the national post would publish such a twisted interpretation of the facts and which promotes debunked data as fact.

where is ethics in jounalism around this issue? where was the fact checking before publishing a story which will contribute to the on going harm of my community?

i always hear from journalists that "we need both sides of the story"....

it seems in order to fulfill that need media are willing to publish anything and have cast their ethics to the side in pursuit of their story. at what point will this kind of article be recongnized for what it is?

it is hate speach and promotion of hatred.

the worst part is that people believe what they read! its affecting policy and deepening our marginalization across this country.

i do not need a mostly male governmet making laws in regard to where and under what circumstances i can allow access to my body.

keep your laws, morals, religion and ideology OFF MY BODY!!!!

#1 - I am not surprised at the NP. I thought they were known for being controversial. At least, that is my opinon from some of the disgusting pictures they put on their front page
#2 - You know I love that saying, susi!
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
1,643
1
0
46
North Vancouver
It's kind of the Conservative mantra that a woman's body and mind is not hers to do with as she will... it must belong to the state :)

I understand their desire, but I can't see how making people desperate is going to change anything. Does the Nordic model allow for extensive retraining, health and child support? Counseling? Ongoing support for transitional stress? Or does it target the purchasers while leaving people in the lurch, now unable to ply any trade or acquire any income? Increased desperation rarely means a decrease in violence....

Sounds more like a play by the righteous RIGHT, and less a move by a concerned society.
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,496
388
83
57
@the Meat Market!!!lol
this came into my mail from quebec sex workers today...i am not surprised that this guy calls for the murder of pooners. he is a notorious abolitionist reporter/ journalist. he wrote "the 2 natasha's" and is a fanatic. he wrote horrible things about me at one point.....

http://sisyphe.org/spip.php?article4445to

In French calling to the murders of clients. "je considère que les hommes qui traitent le corps des femmes comme un objet de consommation jetable après usage ou qui tirent profit de leur exploitation ne méritent rien de plus que le caniveau.

"Translation: I consider men using women's bodies as a consummer's objets that you can throw out after usage or exploit deserves nothing better that to be found in the bottoms of gutters.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
It's kind of the Conservative mantra that a woman's body and mind is not hers to do with as she will... it must belong to the state :)

I understand their desire, but I can't see how making people desperate is going to change anything. Does the Nordic model allow for extensive retraining, health and child support? Counseling? Ongoing support for transitional stress? Or does it target the purchasers while leaving people in the lurch, now unable to ply any trade or acquire any income? Increased desperation rarely means a decrease in violence....

Sounds more like a play by the righteous RIGHT, and less a move by a concerned society.
The Nordic countries do have more options for the poor (i.e. child support, education, health services) than we do. Their model is based on a leftist, feminist perspective. But still....
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
1,643
1
0
46
North Vancouver
I'm not saying I support it. What I support is the elimination of the need for the survival sex trade. I also support the entire elimination of the pimp/handler in the industry, and allowing for safe work places for those in transition. I believe in legalization, to ensure that people engaged in the sex trade have their legal rights fully recognized and protected. Would I want any daughter of mine to be involved in the sex trade? Of course not, but I wouldn't want her punished for doing so... and I wouldn't want her to have no say over what she does with her own body... the government has no business in the bedroom of the nation, and it has no business attempting to legislate control over an individuals body or mind.

I don't want any more dead sex trade workers. I would assume neither does mr. Harper and his cronies, but they happen to believe that driving it out of sight and out of mind will cause it to go away. I just don't happen to agree with them on that point.
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
1,913
1
0
My understanding was that the Swedish model of decriminalization was enforced fairly laxly against clients, in that most of the people charged got minimal fines, is that not the case? Also, if you have some data about the negative effects of this law can you post it? I'm curious and concerned about this law being put into place in Canada.
It is probably only enforced for street prostitution, since it is visible, in other words it isn't really any different from the status quo every where else in the world. The main difference is that they don't charge the girls (which makes suppression more difficult IMO).

I'm sure police in Sweden have better things to do with their time than to go after consenting adults doing things in private.
 
Aug 15, 2006
622
4
18
And this is their false premise. Destroy the premise and all of their arguments fail. So they ignore all evidence to the contrary and perpetuate their own mythology in the press. Keep up the good work, Susi!
Unfortunately, I think the only way to destroy the premise is for thousands of SP's to publicly come out and speak up about why they willingly choose to work in the industry, but due to societys stigmas there are nowhere near enough who are willing to do this.

I'm sure police in Sweden have better things to do with their time than to go after consenting adults doing things in private.
The police in the US sure spend alot of time and money on stings to catch Johns, and I'm not just talking about street level.
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
5,491
8
38
on yer ignore list
The police in the US sure spend alot of time and money on stings to catch Johns, and I'm not just talking about street level.
in the u.s., police chiefs, chief prosecutors, and county judges are all elected

and the prostitution stings all take place not too long before re-election time

it's all about politics
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
1,913
1
0
The police in the US sure spend alot of time and money on stings to catch Johns, and I'm not just talking about street level.
No they don't. The make a big fuss when they do, but their efforts in that regard are a trivial drop in the ocean, since attacking the indoor trade is so much work for the results. Most enforcement is on the street level, where is much easier to catch people as it is in the open.
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
5,491
8
38
on yer ignore list
No they don't. The make a big fuss when they do, but their efforts in that regard are a trivial drop in the ocean, since attacking the indoor trade is so much work for the results. Most enforcement is on the street level, where is much easier to catch people as it is in the open.
i suspect it's the media that makes the big fuss about it, not the police
 

Sonny

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2004
3,734
219
63
It is just simply pathetic that a so-called modern world is forever having this discussion.
What's so hard to understand? Harmless engagements between un-coerced free-willing adults should never show up on anyone's radar.
Of course, then the real meat of the matter is whosoever is determining whether these engagements are "harmless" or not.
We say "harmless" and the prohibitionists say "harmful".
And central to the particular argument is the transaction of money.
 
Ashley Madison
Vancouver Escorts