Pooners Meeting – Vancouver BC - Sex Buyers Meeting
April 29th, 2013
The BC Coalition of Experiential Communities hosted a knowledge Transfer meeting between sex workers and allies from across Canada. Part of the planned activities was to host a satellite session for sex buyers. Many of us believe that sex buyers have import expertise to contribute and we had endeavored to find a way to include their voices on issues that affect us all as a community.
Sex buyers are rarely part of the conversation and are not represented on committees making decisions about their future safety and criminal status. In fact, very little research even examines what conditions are faced by sex buyers and the reasons why they purchase. “ John’s Voice” ( www.johnsvoice.ca ) research engage almost 1000 sex buyers in defining their experiences as sex buyers. That work has lead to the “Safety and Security Project” which is ongoing.
BCCEC members attempted organize a sex buyers meeting to coincide with the “Sex Work Experts Summit” which took place from March 15th, 2013 to March 18th, 2013. Space was booked at SFU Harbor Center Downtown Vancouver and an invitation was posted on-line appealing to sex buyers to take part.
Several concerns were raised in terms of sex buyers feeling comfortable attending a meeting which mostly revolved around confidentiality and potential harms individuals would face if they were outed as purchasers. The format of an in person meeting was questioned and suggestions of a private forum created specifically for the meeting and another suggestion of a prearranged virtual meeting in “chat”- (real time on-line virtual conversations).
The private forum created specifically for the discussion had a lot of potential as the forum web address could be kept private except for those who would be participating. It was suggested that a process of vetting people applying to take part would be necessary in order to ensure the participants were legitimate sex buyers.
The prearranged meeting in chat was dismissed as too risky. Individuals felt there was too much potential for a breach of confidentiality using the format and that there was no way to ensure that outsiders hadn’t gained entry under false pretences.
Eventually, the idea was put on hold as options for creating safe space were considered.
Then a well known members of the sex buying community stepped up and volunteered to host a private meeting for sex buyers. His stated that it was important for sex buyers to contribute to the ongoing fight against criminalization and organized a group to meet and discuss their perspectives on the future of Canada’s prostitution laws.
Susan Davis – minute taker
The discussion began with the Susan explaining the context of the meeting as it related to the “Sex Work Experts Summit” that had recently taken part between sex workers and allies from across Canada.
She suggested the group send their time discussing the same topic as the “Sex Work Experts Summit” and focus on concerns or ideas in a post law reform Canada and what strategies the group could come up within terms of addressing those concerns.
She made an example of re criminalization under the Nordic model explaining that it would criminalize the purchasers but decriminalize the sex sellers and also talked about stigma.
Some group members were “out” and had no fears about the families and friends knowing they purchased sex. Others were worried about being known as a purchaser and the loss of social capitol they would experience if they were “outed”.
“Yes, it’s an issue. My workmates and friends are extremely conservative.”
Nordic Model
Members of the group understood what the Nordic model was and discussed concerns they had for both themselves and sex workers;
• It will cause guys not to purchase leaving only criminal types [predators]
• Why criminalize men who are not criminals? [predators] this would make honest men criminals [ men who harm women]
• This industry keeps pooners stable/ sane.
• What will men do if they have no clear choices?
• It makes it tougher for workers too, makes it hard for them to meet clients or keep regulars
• What if the guy feels regret or guilt or fear after the fact? What if his fear of being outed by the worker who took his personal info when booking to police makes him violent or fight to maintain his confidentiality? It could cause violence or force workers to loosen security
• It forces migration but from Canada there is nowhere to go
• There is nowhere to go, the US is worse
• The Nordic model shows decreases in trafficking but it’s because it’s easy to escape from Sweden. They have simply migrated to a country where the Nordic Model is not in use
• Trafficking is already criminal. Why do we need separate laws to criminalize it again?
• Why do we have to face losing our families and jobs?
• The abolitionists and bible thumpers are causing this
• The Stigma will get worse
• It’s been a part of society for so long, how can it ever be shut down?
The conversation then turned to discussing other aspects of their ideas and concerns;
• European Brothel Models work well and protect both buyers and sellers
• Killers [predators] would not purchase in brothels, an open industry would be safer.
• We need clear purchasing choices
• The conversation about buyers is always linked to predators., we must separate the discussion
• The industry has changed under the current legal framework/ over time. Not as many workers were being hurt back in the day.
• Overall, the situation degraded as they [sex workers] couldn’t communicate openly
The group then took a bit of a side track discussing their past experiences buying the services of Vancouver sex workers during safer times.
Then the Japanese sex industry was discussed;
• Japan has a different safer model.
• Buyers enter agencies and meet a worker but the transaction does not take place there.
• They leave together and go to a “by the hour” hotel room.
• Couples who are not engaged in the sex industry also rent the rooms for intimate encounters
• In Japan, space is limited and couples often live in small spaces with their parents so intimacy is not possible at home.
The conversation refocused on issues facing sex buyers and affecting their safety;
• We need to find better ways for consumers to give their input. Ways that protect confidentiality and acknowledge that sex buyers experience extreme stigma as well.
• European attitudes are way more open, in Canada is not the same
• The hearts and minds aspect of the fight against criminalization is huge.
• Why do they always make it seem that the sex buyer is the dominant one? She has something we need. She has all the power in the transaction.
• Sex buyers are not boogie men, we are people.
• I am worried about their [sex workers] boyfriends and if they attack me. What if they call police and I am there? What if they come home and I am there and they become violent?
• How can sex workers and sex buyers be more open with each other? I want to know if there might be a problem.
• It’s like gay marriage, it’s the same kind of social change. People today aren’t afraid of them [LGTB] people. Kids don’t think it’s strange. It just shows that it can be better, society can change.
• It [the attitudes about sex work and sex buying] will evolve and steam roll until people don’t look down on it any more.
Susan then suggested that the group focus on the second part of the discussion which was around potential strategies to address these concerns and ideas.
• Clearly post rates so there is no misunderstanding and buyers know what to expect. This could also prevent undercutting of rates, it could standardize rates.
• When they struck down the “Motor Carriers Act” it caused degradation of the industry and undermined wages. This could ensure sex workers make a livable wage.
• There should be mandatory health checks. Other industries have too, so why is the sex industry different.
• Condoms don’t always work
• You can’t guarantee that condoms will be used so better to protect people through testing.
• The testing should be ongoing by workers voluntarily but in conjunction with random testing by the government/ health authority.
• They [sex workers] should be licensed and accredited. The accreditation should include mandatory testing.
• If the test comes back positive for an STI, they should be suspended until they are up to par.
• In some industries like catering or kitchen work, you could lose your job of found positive for some diseases like HEPC.
• My biggest concern is my health and getting caught. I worry I could be infected.
• Disclosure, their [sex workers] health status should be public/open.
• There is stigma attached to diseases like HIV
• I don’t think it would necessarily be detrimental to disclose HIV status.
• Some customers would remain loyal, some others will walk
• There should be retraining for workers who become infected, like in other industries when a worker is injured
• We must work to change social attitudes
• We need choices, autonomy and be able to negotiate our own personal boundaries
• Why should they [the government] have the power change our choices?
• Once indoor brothels are legal less and less will purchase from the street. More people will move to using indoor sex work spaces as public acceptance grows.
• It will address the community nuisance issues such as condom mess and public sex acts
• We need to address exploitation. I don’t want to contribute to the harm of any person. It worries me a lot.
• We need to develop and promote our social side, we are not just an industry, we are a community.
• We need to educate outsiders about our lives
• We need to be included in any discussions that will affect us
• How will we regulate the industry? Inspections should happen every 6 months
• It [the sex industry] must be regulated
• Who will do it? [regulate the industry] how will we pay for regulation? Other industries are supposed to regulate and inspect but they cannot keep up with the work. They fail. How will the sex industry be able to do what other industries can’t?
• More people [sex workers and sex buyers] need to come out of the closet.
• Sex workers need to lead the way coming out. They being ashamed makes clients ashamed.
The meeting ended with the group acknowledging that this was only a beginning. Susan Davis committed to writing up the minutes for circulation to the group so that people could add any final thoughts or edit comments they made.
She then promised to compile the discussion into a short report for broader dissemination amongst the sex industry community.
Conclusions
Sex buyers greatest concerns centered around social stigma and being outed, as well as their health. Mandatory health checks and easy access to health information about workers was favoured.
Sex buyers also shared concerns about contributing to exploitation and wanted to find ways to combat that within the sex industry.
Overall, sex buyers favored a decriminalized but regulated sex industry which adhered to similar policies around health and safety as the industries they themselves engaged in and had experiences with. They felt in general that sex industry workers should be accountable through processes that existed in other industries in Canada.
April 29th, 2013
The BC Coalition of Experiential Communities hosted a knowledge Transfer meeting between sex workers and allies from across Canada. Part of the planned activities was to host a satellite session for sex buyers. Many of us believe that sex buyers have import expertise to contribute and we had endeavored to find a way to include their voices on issues that affect us all as a community.
Sex buyers are rarely part of the conversation and are not represented on committees making decisions about their future safety and criminal status. In fact, very little research even examines what conditions are faced by sex buyers and the reasons why they purchase. “ John’s Voice” ( www.johnsvoice.ca ) research engage almost 1000 sex buyers in defining their experiences as sex buyers. That work has lead to the “Safety and Security Project” which is ongoing.
BCCEC members attempted organize a sex buyers meeting to coincide with the “Sex Work Experts Summit” which took place from March 15th, 2013 to March 18th, 2013. Space was booked at SFU Harbor Center Downtown Vancouver and an invitation was posted on-line appealing to sex buyers to take part.
Several concerns were raised in terms of sex buyers feeling comfortable attending a meeting which mostly revolved around confidentiality and potential harms individuals would face if they were outed as purchasers. The format of an in person meeting was questioned and suggestions of a private forum created specifically for the meeting and another suggestion of a prearranged virtual meeting in “chat”- (real time on-line virtual conversations).
The private forum created specifically for the discussion had a lot of potential as the forum web address could be kept private except for those who would be participating. It was suggested that a process of vetting people applying to take part would be necessary in order to ensure the participants were legitimate sex buyers.
The prearranged meeting in chat was dismissed as too risky. Individuals felt there was too much potential for a breach of confidentiality using the format and that there was no way to ensure that outsiders hadn’t gained entry under false pretences.
Eventually, the idea was put on hold as options for creating safe space were considered.
Then a well known members of the sex buying community stepped up and volunteered to host a private meeting for sex buyers. His stated that it was important for sex buyers to contribute to the ongoing fight against criminalization and organized a group to meet and discuss their perspectives on the future of Canada’s prostitution laws.
Susan Davis – minute taker
The discussion began with the Susan explaining the context of the meeting as it related to the “Sex Work Experts Summit” that had recently taken part between sex workers and allies from across Canada.
She suggested the group send their time discussing the same topic as the “Sex Work Experts Summit” and focus on concerns or ideas in a post law reform Canada and what strategies the group could come up within terms of addressing those concerns.
She made an example of re criminalization under the Nordic model explaining that it would criminalize the purchasers but decriminalize the sex sellers and also talked about stigma.
Some group members were “out” and had no fears about the families and friends knowing they purchased sex. Others were worried about being known as a purchaser and the loss of social capitol they would experience if they were “outed”.
“Yes, it’s an issue. My workmates and friends are extremely conservative.”
Nordic Model
Members of the group understood what the Nordic model was and discussed concerns they had for both themselves and sex workers;
• It will cause guys not to purchase leaving only criminal types [predators]
• Why criminalize men who are not criminals? [predators] this would make honest men criminals [ men who harm women]
• This industry keeps pooners stable/ sane.
• What will men do if they have no clear choices?
• It makes it tougher for workers too, makes it hard for them to meet clients or keep regulars
• What if the guy feels regret or guilt or fear after the fact? What if his fear of being outed by the worker who took his personal info when booking to police makes him violent or fight to maintain his confidentiality? It could cause violence or force workers to loosen security
• It forces migration but from Canada there is nowhere to go
• There is nowhere to go, the US is worse
• The Nordic model shows decreases in trafficking but it’s because it’s easy to escape from Sweden. They have simply migrated to a country where the Nordic Model is not in use
• Trafficking is already criminal. Why do we need separate laws to criminalize it again?
• Why do we have to face losing our families and jobs?
• The abolitionists and bible thumpers are causing this
• The Stigma will get worse
• It’s been a part of society for so long, how can it ever be shut down?
The conversation then turned to discussing other aspects of their ideas and concerns;
• European Brothel Models work well and protect both buyers and sellers
• Killers [predators] would not purchase in brothels, an open industry would be safer.
• We need clear purchasing choices
• The conversation about buyers is always linked to predators., we must separate the discussion
• The industry has changed under the current legal framework/ over time. Not as many workers were being hurt back in the day.
• Overall, the situation degraded as they [sex workers] couldn’t communicate openly
The group then took a bit of a side track discussing their past experiences buying the services of Vancouver sex workers during safer times.
Then the Japanese sex industry was discussed;
• Japan has a different safer model.
• Buyers enter agencies and meet a worker but the transaction does not take place there.
• They leave together and go to a “by the hour” hotel room.
• Couples who are not engaged in the sex industry also rent the rooms for intimate encounters
• In Japan, space is limited and couples often live in small spaces with their parents so intimacy is not possible at home.
The conversation refocused on issues facing sex buyers and affecting their safety;
• We need to find better ways for consumers to give their input. Ways that protect confidentiality and acknowledge that sex buyers experience extreme stigma as well.
• European attitudes are way more open, in Canada is not the same
• The hearts and minds aspect of the fight against criminalization is huge.
• Why do they always make it seem that the sex buyer is the dominant one? She has something we need. She has all the power in the transaction.
• Sex buyers are not boogie men, we are people.
• I am worried about their [sex workers] boyfriends and if they attack me. What if they call police and I am there? What if they come home and I am there and they become violent?
• How can sex workers and sex buyers be more open with each other? I want to know if there might be a problem.
• It’s like gay marriage, it’s the same kind of social change. People today aren’t afraid of them [LGTB] people. Kids don’t think it’s strange. It just shows that it can be better, society can change.
• It [the attitudes about sex work and sex buying] will evolve and steam roll until people don’t look down on it any more.
Susan then suggested that the group focus on the second part of the discussion which was around potential strategies to address these concerns and ideas.
• Clearly post rates so there is no misunderstanding and buyers know what to expect. This could also prevent undercutting of rates, it could standardize rates.
• When they struck down the “Motor Carriers Act” it caused degradation of the industry and undermined wages. This could ensure sex workers make a livable wage.
• There should be mandatory health checks. Other industries have too, so why is the sex industry different.
• Condoms don’t always work
• You can’t guarantee that condoms will be used so better to protect people through testing.
• The testing should be ongoing by workers voluntarily but in conjunction with random testing by the government/ health authority.
• They [sex workers] should be licensed and accredited. The accreditation should include mandatory testing.
• If the test comes back positive for an STI, they should be suspended until they are up to par.
• In some industries like catering or kitchen work, you could lose your job of found positive for some diseases like HEPC.
• My biggest concern is my health and getting caught. I worry I could be infected.
• Disclosure, their [sex workers] health status should be public/open.
• There is stigma attached to diseases like HIV
• I don’t think it would necessarily be detrimental to disclose HIV status.
• Some customers would remain loyal, some others will walk
• There should be retraining for workers who become infected, like in other industries when a worker is injured
• We must work to change social attitudes
• We need choices, autonomy and be able to negotiate our own personal boundaries
• Why should they [the government] have the power change our choices?
• Once indoor brothels are legal less and less will purchase from the street. More people will move to using indoor sex work spaces as public acceptance grows.
• It will address the community nuisance issues such as condom mess and public sex acts
• We need to address exploitation. I don’t want to contribute to the harm of any person. It worries me a lot.
• We need to develop and promote our social side, we are not just an industry, we are a community.
• We need to educate outsiders about our lives
• We need to be included in any discussions that will affect us
• How will we regulate the industry? Inspections should happen every 6 months
• It [the sex industry] must be regulated
• Who will do it? [regulate the industry] how will we pay for regulation? Other industries are supposed to regulate and inspect but they cannot keep up with the work. They fail. How will the sex industry be able to do what other industries can’t?
• More people [sex workers and sex buyers] need to come out of the closet.
• Sex workers need to lead the way coming out. They being ashamed makes clients ashamed.
The meeting ended with the group acknowledging that this was only a beginning. Susan Davis committed to writing up the minutes for circulation to the group so that people could add any final thoughts or edit comments they made.
She then promised to compile the discussion into a short report for broader dissemination amongst the sex industry community.
Conclusions
Sex buyers greatest concerns centered around social stigma and being outed, as well as their health. Mandatory health checks and easy access to health information about workers was favoured.
Sex buyers also shared concerns about contributing to exploitation and wanted to find ways to combat that within the sex industry.
Overall, sex buyers favored a decriminalized but regulated sex industry which adhered to similar policies around health and safety as the industries they themselves engaged in and had experiences with. They felt in general that sex industry workers should be accountable through processes that existed in other industries in Canada.
