Ollie North says

[sdw]

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/OliverNorth/2007/04/27/americans_now_love_losers_im_not_buying_it

"What would losing the war in Iraq mean? It's a picture so dark and depressing that it makes the collapse in Vietnam, 32 years ago next week, look like a Sunday school picnic. The fall of Saigon was horrific for the people of Vietnam and their neighbors in Cambodia and Laos. More than 5 million became refugees and by the most conservative estimates at least a million others perished."

Those that read newspapers, watched TV or listened to radio in 1986 know who "Ollie" is and how much trust to put in anything he says.

For those who were too young: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_North

"In November 1986 as the sale of weapons was made public, North was fired by President Reagan, and in July 1987 he was summoned to testify before televised hearings of a joint Congressional committee formed to investigate Iran-Contra. The image of North taking the oath (see photo at top of article) became iconic, and similar photographs made the cover of Time and Newsweek, and helped define him in the eyes of the public. During the hearings, North admitted that he had lied to Congress, for which he was later charged among other things. He defended his actions by stating that he believed in the goal of aiding the Contras, whom he saw as freedom fighters, and said that he viewed the Iran-Contra scheme as a "neat idea.""

What is so scary about American politics is they simply never move on. Just as we finally are seeing the end of Kennedy and Nixon and their staffs, we are moving into the period of Clinton and Bush and their staffs.

Forty years from now we are going to be listening to the shortwave in our caves and hear an ex-Bush staffer complaining about how an ex-Clinton staffer in the Cave up the river is stealing all the snails.

If the average American wants to avoid that future, it really is time to refuse to have anything to do with anyone who served on the staff of a discredited president, senator or congress critter.

 

[jjinvan]

"In November 1986 as the sale of weapons was made public, North was fired by President Reagan

...

Just as we finally are seeing the end of Kennedy and Nixon and their staffs, we are moving into the period of Clinton and Bush and their staffs.

...

If the average American wants to avoid that future, it really is time to refuse to have anything to do with anyone who served on the staff of a discredited president, senator or congress critter.

Are you saying that Reagan was discredited?

Or are you saying you can't tell Reagan from Bush Sr?

Also, by your logic, we should all toss Dion out with the trash (wouldn't that be great ) because Martin and Cretien were pretty 'discredited' by the whole Sponsorship thing, and he certainly had a lot to do with both of them.

 

[sdw]

Are you saying that Reagan was discredited?

Or are you saying you can't tell Reagan from Bush Sr?

Also, by your logic, we should all toss Dion out with the trash (wouldn't that be great ) because Martin and Cretien were pretty 'discredited' by the whole Sponsorship thing, and he certainly had a lot to do with both of them.

OK let's look at Dion.
Currently running on the environment.
Nothing done during the 8 years he had the portfolio

Says he's not involved in the patronage or advertising scandals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephane_Dion
"Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (January 1996 - December 2003)

Stéphane Dion had a significant role in events leading up to the Supreme Court ruling on the unilateral secession of Quebec, handed down on August 20, 1998 which adjudged that there is no right, under international law or under the Constitution of Canada, for the National Assembly to effect the secession of Quebec from Canada unilaterally. He also played an important role in the creation of the Clarity Act of March 15, 2000."

Since the advertising scandal is linked to the Liberal Federalists and all the money stolen came from federal funds to promote federalism, Dion was demonstrably involved in the scandal.

So, yes Dion is one of the ones I wouldn't miss and clearly part of the group I was talking about.

Reagan was clearly discredited as a result of the Iran Contra scandal.

 

[jjinvan]

Reagan was clearly discredited as a result of the Iran Contra scandal.

Actually wasn't that when the words 'plausable deniability' became famous?

From what I remember, they never did show that Reagan knew anything about the whole thing.

 

[sdw]

Actually wasn't that when the words 'plausable deniability' became famous?

From what I remember, they never did show that Reagan knew anything about the whole thing.

I don't think Alzheimer's is a defense. The Iran Contra scam was run by the usual suspects. Cheney was involved, Bush Sr was involved, Rumsfeld was involved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld
"Reagan Administration

During his period as Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East (November 1983 – May 1984), Rumsfeld was the main conduit for crucial American military intelligence, hardware and strategic advice to Saddam Hussein, then fighting Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. This policy was adopted when the war began to go strongly in Iran's favor, and it looked as if Iran would overrun Iraq completely. Although the United States was hesitant to support a Soviet client state, the prospect of a greatly expanded Iran outweighed these concerns. When he visited on December 19 – December 20, 1983, he and Saddam Hussein had a 90-minute discussion that covered Syria's occupation of Lebanon, preventing Syrian and Iranian expansion, preventing arms sales to Iran by foreign countries, increasing Iraqi oil production via a possible new oil pipeline across Jordan. According to declassified U.S. State Department documents Rumsfeld also informed Tariq Aziz (Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister) that: "Our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that made it difficult for us ... citing the use of chemical weapons."[15]

During his brief bid for the 1988 Republican nomination, Rumsfeld stated that restoring full relations with Iraq was one of his best achievements. This was not a particularly controversial position at the time, when the Establishment U.S. policy regime considered ties with Iraq an effective bulwark against Iran."

Of course Reagan knew what was happening. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan
"The Iran-Contra Affair

Main article: Iran-Contra Affair
Main article: Reagan administration scandals

President Reagan receives the Tower Report in the Cabinet Room of the White House in 1987.
President Reagan receives the Tower Report in the Cabinet Room of the White House in 1987.

In 1986, the Reagan Administration was found to have illegally sold arms to Iran to fund Contra rebels in Nicaragua. The Iran-Contra Affair was the largest political scandal in the United States during the 1980s.[100] Large volumes of documents relating to the scandal were destroyed or withheld from investigators by Reagan Administration officials.[101] President Reagan professed ignorance of the plot's existence and quickly called for an Independent Counsel to investigate. Reagan's denial of awareness of the scandal belied his signing a secret presidential "finding" describing the deal as "arms-for-hostages". Critics objected to his comparison of the Contras, who were responsible for murdering large numbers of women and children, to the Founding Fathers and to the French Resistance, which suggests that he viewed the Sandinistas as Communists who were akin to an occupying power. The International Court of Justice, in its ruling on Nicaragua v. United States, found that the U.S. had been involved in the "unlawful use of force" in Nicaragua due to its treaty obligations and the customary obligations of international law not to intervene in the affairs of other states. The U.S. had not accepted the court's jurisdiction and did not argue the merits of its case, nor did the court accept the intervention on the behalf of the U.S. by El Salvador, to whose defense the U.S. claimed it was coming by its actions in Nicaragua. Despite a United Nations General Assembly resolution[102] demanding compliance, the U.S. never paid the required fine and since 1991, relations with Nicaragua were friendly.

Reagan appointed a non-partisan, three-man commission to review the scandal, called the Tower Commission. Headed by John Tower, the other two members were Edmund Muskie and Brent Scowcroft. In the end, ten officials in the Reagan Administration were convicted, and others were forced to resign.[103] Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger was indicted for perjury and later received a presidential pardon from George H.W. Bush, days before the trial was set to begin. In 2006, historians ranked the Iran-Contra affair as one of the ten worst mistakes by a U.S. president.[104]"

Since the corporations that own our politicians also own the media, we keep running into "amnesia" on issues the corporations supported.

 

[Sonny]

Since the advertising scandal is linked to the Liberal Federalists and all the money stolen came from federal funds to promote federalism, Dion was demonstrably involved in the scandal.

Huh? I guess your kangaroo court logic includes anyone in the federal Liberal party at the time? The sponsorship scandal is a travesty of trust and integrity, but let's support accusations with direct knowledge links to the activities rather than innuendo and suspicion. A bunch of Liberal hacks have criminal charges against them, and one pleaded guilty to a long list a couple of days ago. I think it was a tight small crowd that did the deed, who kept many in the dark - the company of which I would include the non-alpha Martin and the lacklustre Dion.

 

[sdw]

Huh? I guess your kangaroo court logic includes anyone in the federal Liberal party at the time? The sponsorship scandal is a travesty of trust and integrity, but let's support accusations with direct knowledge links to the activities rather than innuendo and suspicion. A bunch of Liberal hacks have criminal charges against them, and one pleaded guilty to a long list a couple of days ago. I think it was a tight small crowd that did the deed, who kept many in the dark - the company of which I would include the non-alpha Martin and the lacklustre Dion.

Do you really think that Martin didn't know what was happening? He was Finance Minister. Do you really think that Stephane Dion didn't know what is happening? He was the Intergovernmental Minister responsible for the Federalist initiative. He was actually quite proud of what he had done until it became a scandal.

I provided links in the post that you have selectively quoted.

 

[Sonny]

As to the links you provided... Anyone who thinks Wikipedia does not have biases needs a name change to Alice. But even here, Wikipedia acknowledges that:

"Along with most of the other ministers in the Chrétien cabinet, Dion was exonerated of all responsibility in the affair in the Phase I report of the Gomery Commission"

So I agree that Dion and Martin (no love lost with Chretien), despite their ministerial positions, were kept intentionally in the dark by those doing the illegal activities who also kept their circle small and tight.

Although it is just my opinion, I think that Dion and Martin would not have gone along if they had known. It was, after all, Martin as PM who instituted the Gomery Inquiry and supported every avenue of exploration into the mess, knowing full well that the federal Liberal Party image would suffer and that Liberals would be found guilty of crimes.

 

[Sonny]

The thing is, in the case of the sponsorship scandal, Martin's signature was on the cheques.. so.. that leaves two possibilities:

1) He knew what they were for

2) He was signing cheques for millions of dollars without having any idea what they were for.

Either way... 'innocent' isn't the word that comes to mind.

You think that Martin signed cheques? Or even approved the disbursements? Of a large government of many Departments, headed by Ministers with established budgets? Hello? Anyone home?

That's like saying the CFO of a corporation signs all the cheques - duh, nope! For example (to equivilate departmental organization), a divisional Controller along with the general manager of the division will sign cheques for disbursements the CFO knows nothing about.

Just look to Alfonso for the approval process.

 

[Sonny]

And who launched the inquiry into the whole Iran Contra thing? Reagan did. By the same logic, Reagan was innocent in the Iran Contra thing.

Well, Martin was actually found innocent of any wrong-doing or involvement in the scandal by the Gomery Commission.

from Wikipedia (my underline)

"When he (Martin) became Prime Minister in December 2003, he claimed that he put a halt to it. He also set up the Gomery Commission which later cleared him of formal responsibility by Justice Gomery in his November 2005 'First Phase Report' of the Gomery Commission. The Gomery findings claimed that Martin, as finance minister, established a 'fiscal framework' but he did not have oversight as to the dispersal of the funds once they were apportioned to Chrétien's Prime Minister's Office. A report on the issue by the Auditor General's Office of Sheila Fraser came to the same conclusion."