Of Tortures and Beatings in Iraq

MoeTheBartender

I serve DUFF BEER only!
Mar 20, 2004
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Moe's Tavern - Springfield
It's time for the United States Military to be accountable for all the atrocities being committed in the Abu Gharib prison travesty. We always spoke about how we as First World nations trying to install peace and order and condeming the Arab nation of brutality whereas we also pratice the same monstrosity and even exposing it to the world... where's the sense and justice in all this?

I will not be surprise if another '9/11' scenario is being planned just up the horizon.

Warning: You may find some of these pictures disturbing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm
 

naughtygirl

Naughty Naughty
Jun 8, 2003
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Disturbing doesn't even begin to describe the thoughts that those images bring. What I saw was completely inhumane, regardless of the Country doing it. Absolutely appalling, the US President must take responsiblity for the actions taken in the name of freedom. From what I saw though, those pictures had nothing to do with freedom or justice.....Looked like revenge and hatred to me.
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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I think all the stupid Canadians that were critics and lashed out against people that were anti-war are pretty quiet ...

What a joke.. the world told the US that this was happening .. most Americans and even a good chunk of Canadians... were made a politicians etc that were against Bus ..

what a joke what a joke

6 months ago neighboring countries told the US that this was happening .. the claimed no it wasnt ... this is what we see in pics.. think about what we dont see...
 

dducks

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Jan 24, 2004
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Professional soldiers should not be the prison guards. The things that make a good soldier such as hatred of the enemy and kill or be killed do not work for a prison guard. It is hard to blame the soldiers but I do blame the government who put them there
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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They shouldnt be there all together in the first place.. but thats a different debate ..

Soldiers prison guards.. doctors etc.. doctors on the front line or Medics we call them ... (docs/para-medic) etcs.. are all soldiers.. so either way once you take the pledge.. and you are stationed at a post you take that post position .. and the government apparently trains them to run a prison as soldiers so I see no difference.. yeah your right the gov't is at fault as Crow and Burke are at fault but like BErtuzzi the soldiers commited the crime.. if they were given the code red .....

Then lets punish the soldiers and the gov't ..
 

napcodog

Spock: Live long & FUCK
Mar 27, 2003
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I wonder how our soldiers, or the general public in Canada would be reacting if they had flown the planes into our buildings killing our people. Hopefully we will never know what having terrorits attack our homeland is like. It is easy for people to sit and judge from their warm home, but try living over their with being shot at yourself. These soldiers have been traind to kill not be prision guards. I am not saying what they have done is right, but unless you have lived in their shoes, it is hard to judge them. After 9-11 the whole millitary in the states under went a change, that this will never happen to us again. The ironic thing out of all this is where were the critics when the U.S. soldiers were being mistreated that were shot down or captured in the Middle East.
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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Exactly most people havent .. from your description it seems you have or maybe havent. If you did live over there or visited there you would not have this impression. Prior to 911 1000's of these events as you see in pics happend overseas. Hmmm I dont know where to start .. but rapping and pilaging was what caused crazy people to become maniacs to create the 911 tradegy ..

911 was not justified.. but similar antics of 911 have been happening to thired world countries for a long time.. with the roots of attacks coming from our part of the world.

I have been there.. I have heard the stories of people being rapped and attacked and leaving there US machinery behind....

I am not going to get into an agruement of wether Vietnam scenerios should be discussed or justified.. here but YOU CANNOT use 9-11 s an excuse.. if that was the case Korea should have dropped an Atom bomb on Washington .. for throwing chemical experiments on the very soil that they sleep ..

or

India should kick the crap out of every Brit .. for poisining the water,... supply .. to eradicate Hidhu's and Sikhs.. before the pilaged there gold and wealth ..

Remember every country has problems..

But this is a country that denied knowing about Pearl HArbour ....and now said .. ok we kinda new..

that should sum it up
 

Privan

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Sep 28, 2003
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You should just ignore stuff like this whether it goes or not. For one, assuming it is happening, it's between soldiers and prisoners of war. There is a big difference between torturing a civilian and torturing someone who a few months ago (and probably now) wanted nothing more than to blow a new whole into your brain. Hell, this stuff is almost encouraged under the rules of war (not that anyone follows those either).

Napcodog also made a good point. Combined with what I said, think of this way. It's one thing to sit in your room reading that article and think "Oh my god, how horrible". It's another thing to spend 6 months or more out there getting shot at by those people, having friends killed around you, and then trying to be... indifferent to them. To reiterate, these are SOLDIERS, not civilians.

Also, building off what napcodog said about the critics, where do you see the outrage against Africa, Russia, China, and so on... All those counties that pull this junk regularly against civilians? Best example, go watch "The Dying Rooms". If I remember the history correctly it's a documentary about a group of British students who went to China to document the Dying Rooms. However, they felt that the government was more or less rigging the areas they saw, so they went out on their own and eventually had to flee the country over what they saw. (For those who aren't familiar with the history, the "Dying Rooms" are the government sanctioned orphanages for those children whose families have already reached their maximum alotment of children)

One interesting fact, is that (at least as of 2000, I'm not sure about anymore, especially with the US intervention) Iraq itself held a form of "Dying Rooms" and recorded numbers of over 200 children dying daily (or that might have been so many dying over a period of time it was equivalent to 200 a day).

You can get most of this information through searching the net. I'd post more details but I'm on my class lunch break, so I don't have much time.
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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Just remember 911 wasnt first blood.. You must study history ..

enough said .. I am going pooning tonight ....
 

Privan

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Sep 28, 2003
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massageseeker said:
Just remember 911 wasnt first blood.. You must study history ..

enough said .. I am going pooning tonight ....
You might also remember the US was the one that picked up the slack in the Middle East, when the rest of the UN decided to drop it/shove it to them.

Most of the Middle East hates the US for interfering, but it was the Leage of Nations (and later on the UN), actually the British for the most part, that started of the conflicts down there.
 

Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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Beyond the Pale
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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Rent Michael Moore Bowling for Columbine... .

enough said.. Keep looking for weapons of Mass Destruction...... only Butercups Tits.. will be found..!

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

http://www.michaelmoore.com/.
 

Makhno

Recidivist
Nov 11, 2003
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George Orwell, we miss ya'

Michael who????
The US is defending freedom of speech everywhere in the world.....except in the US.....
(interestingly, Disney gets huge tax subsidies from Florida for its operations there. And guess who Florida's governor is?)
______________________
New York Times 5 May 2004

Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG

WASHINGTON, May 4 — The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday.

The film, "Fahrenheit 911," links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis — including the family of Osama bin Laden — and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating.

Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route.

In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: "We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably."

But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies, executives said.

"We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax," said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. "That decision stands."

Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's company, backed out.

Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed particular concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor.

"Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him," Mr. Emanuel said. "He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved."

Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel.

A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company had the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deemed their distribution to be against the interests of the company. The executive said Mr. Moore's film is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film, which does not have a release date, could alienate many.

"It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle," this executive said.

Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, but such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats.

Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, "At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' "

Mr. Moore's films, like "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine," are often a political lightning rod, as Mr. Moore sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, "Bowling for Columbine," took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like "Stupid White Men," a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative.

Mr. Moore does not disagree that "Fahrenheit 911" is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. "If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine," he said.

Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's role in the evacuation of relatives of Mr. bin Laden from the United States immediately after the 2001 attacks. The film includes comments from American soldiers on the ground in Iraq expressing disillusionment with the war, he said.

Mr. Moore once planned to produce the film with Mr. Gibson's company, but "the project wasn't right for Icon," said Alan Nierob, an Icon spokesman, adding that the decision had nothing to do with politics.

Miramax stepped in immediately. The company had distributed Mr. Moore's 1997 film, "The Big One." In return for providing most of the new film's $6 million budget, Miramax was positioned to distribute it.

While Disney's objections were made clear early on, one executive said the Miramax leadership hoped it would be able to prevail upon Disney to sign off on distribution, which would ideally happen this summer, before the election and when political interest is high.
 

massageseeker

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Sep 3, 2003
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'This is the mentality of many ..

Boooo .. Michael Moore.. and the Dixie Chicks for stating there mind.. while cheering for R. Kelly ... for playing house with little kids.. think about it
 

steve austin

New member
Dec 2, 2003
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Worried about Rumsfeld and his brave soldiers?
Small potatoes.
Think, for one minute, about the ones no longer with us, the children killed and mutilated, the orphans of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Joseph Tito, Slobodan Milosevic, Augusto Pinochet, Idi Amin Dada, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Muammar Qaddafi, Juan Peron, Ayatollah Khomeini, Ferdinand Marcos, General Suharto, Pol Pot, Fransisco Franco.... to name a few.

If you pump gas, you are responsible.
We are all responsible.

 

daryl

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Apr 1, 2004
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Nirvana
For me it is amazing what anyone of us does in the name of something that we consider to be better than what the other does.

We should all learn not try and impose ourselves on the other, but rather let them live. I am sad that this will never happen, at least in my lifetime I believe.

Most wars and atrocities (not sure of spelling) in recorded history and before have been done in the name of religion. So tell me how we can live with religion and ourselves?

I wish the world would stop all the trying to make it a better place for someone else and work on ourselves maybe then the killing and hurting will stop.

Well enough of my rant for the moment.

Daryl

and may your inner spirit be at peace tonight.,
 

CaryGrant

New member
Apr 12, 2004
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Have no fear...

...Donald Rumsfeld is here. Rummie is accepting full responsibility for the actions of the soldiers...though he won't be resigning...so I guess he is responsible but not accountable...much like the entire US military machine, actually...convenient to be the biggest kid on the block...for now. The sad thing is, I think that if the US doesn't stop, they'll eventually take all of us down with them.

That's silly to say that anyone who pumps gas is responsible for atrocities or the war in Iraq. It makes everyone and nobody responsible, and I certainly didn't authorise military action for oil.

And comparing atrocities worldwide to US action in Iraq (or wherever else they're killing, coercing, and undermining) is also not kosher. The US loves its image as the torchbearer of freedom, democracy, and the sacredness of the individual. So when the US engages in activities like torturing prisoners in Iraq, they are shown to be no better than the butchers in other countries...and the world is a poorer place because the US dimmed the light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Makhno

Recidivist
Nov 11, 2003
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Beyond the Pale
Wait......there's more!

If you can believe Rumsfeld, the worst is yet to come. He is quoted in the papers this morning:
"There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," the U.S. Defence Secretary told the Senate armed services committee. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact.

"I mean, I looked at them last night and they're hard to believe," he continued glumly, without going into detail....

"Be on notice," Mr. Rumsfeld said. "Beyond abuse of prisoners, there are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence toward prisoners -- acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman."
This is really going to sour US-Arab relations. Just when things were going so well.................
 
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Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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LOL LDL :D
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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The thing that is TRULY amazing in the whole abuse-of-prisoners incidents is that the four-star generals and politicians didn't give constant and implicit instructions to every soldier, truck driver and file clerk sent over there to be squeaky clean about things like that because it's just what their enemies (that includes Democrats) want. The Bush administration is showing themselves to be even more stupid than first thought. (if that's possible).
 
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