me too and me

[clu]

"Hey ladies, do you hate rape? Well if you do, this "male" looked at me for two seconds too long and doesn't have a GQ modelling portfolio, by university standards this is rape, and the MeToo movement should bring awareness about harassment and rape so let's find out who he is on facebook and turn his life upside down despite not having a shred of tangible proof that an assault by him took place. You HAVE to believe all "her stories" now, no matter what."

...and that's where I start to laugh at the MeToo movement, since it just can't be taken seriously anymore.

Kavanaugh is a whole topic to himself (literally: it's another thread) with many layers, so I'll leave that discussion to that thread.

But I have to ask: this ridiculous caricature of a baseless accusation that #metoo has allegedly morphed into... where are all the examples?

The closest I've seen was the accusation against Aziz Ansari, yet there was significant pushback on that, even from many vocal #metoo advocates.

It looks to me like the boundaries for this feared "off the deep end" have in fact been tested, and society at large does NOT buy into the carte blanc condemnations you're afraid of.

 

[Big_Guy_Rye]

Kavanaugh is a whole topic to himself (literally: it's another thread) with many layers, so I'll leave that discussion to that thread.

But I have to ask: this ridiculous caricature of a baseless accusation that #metoo has allegedly morphed into... where are all the examples?

The closest I've seen was the accusation against Aziz Ansari, yet there was significant pushback on that, even from many vocal #metoo advocates.

It looks to me like the boundaries for this feared "off the deep end" have in fact been tested, and society at large does NOT buy into the carte blanc condemnations you're afraid of.

Recently, there were allegations against Tool frontman Maynard James Keenan for assaulting someone backstage at a Lolpalooza decades ago. And the story (in the pre-Argento fuck up MeToo era) floated around for a day, because the whole world knew what a crock of shit "her story" was that was posted all over twitter. The story died right away, thank god.

As for the caricature, yeah I know it's a bit ridiculous....but that is the world we live in, since what I've said isn't without merit anyways. It is known that NBC does have HR polices between men and female employees where you cannot have direct eye contact with them for a lengthy amount of time, as they would consider that a sexual agression to the female. This is lieu of the Matt Lauer's incident. Even in Netflix's offices, they've adopted a similar practice too. Even go to Feminism forums, and read their justifications for equating "being checked out from afar" is the same as being "raped". Hardly a caricature, when it's actual policy, or a policy in the making.

Then if you need to ask about "baseless accusations" it's not hard to find those cases at all. False rape allegations are hardly a myth, and the point lately has been amplified because of #MeToo...

"Mattress Girl" is the one that really sticks out to me, since she is the very caricature you speak of when you know the whole story.

 

[NEbaD]

Joe Rogan's new special addresses #metoo nicely, I felt.

 

[sevenofnine]

Its easier to place blame instead of taking any responsibility. There is a time and a place for everything, and one can avoid a situation that could lead to trouble.

Theres a real false sense of feminism/liberation brewing among young girls as well. Ive spoken to a number of teenagers, and asked them questions. One drunken group had a lot to say to me, and for a split second I wondered if they were going to get aggressive with me, which would have been another hard lesson learned.

Dressing the way they do, half naked, with their asses hanging out of their shorts, is empowerment to them.
Ive been told point blank - " We know people look, and there are dirty old men staring at us, but this is my body, and Im liberated. Ill do what I want with it. I don't give a Fuc* who looks, doesn't mean they can touch " which is I think is just trouble waiting to happen. My parents would have burned my clothes, tanned my ass, and grounded me for life, if they caught me as a teen dressed how many young ones do today. It just wouldn't have happened. Why are these types of clothing even sold & geared towards young girls ?

Teenagers, are just bigger kids, who need a different type of parenting.
The " Me Too " movement can plant seeds among the young and impressionable.
They are the most susceptible to being influenced by this stuff, which is literally plastered all over the place.
Most households have two working parents now( because its necessary ), and google has become a convenient baby sitter. Which I personally think is by design.
Media influences, have more time with your children than most parents can provide.

Now, Im referring to young girls above, and to me that means, 17, 16, 15, 14 and below & I don't advise questioning a pack of young drunk teenage girls, unless you've got a decent pair of running shoes on. They are feisty. :fencing:

the problem with a young girl or anyone dressing sexy or over sexy, revealing,
is what are you saying,
and yes your attracting attention, but what kind of attention.

I know a young girl, she is going to m.i.t. she is or dresses very non sexual. smart as fucking hell.
a young girl showing off her boobs and her ass, may have boobs and an ass, but whats upstairs. quite often there as dumb as a fence post and broke.
they have nothing and nothing going on.
I have said this before,
a neuro scientist says the brain only has so much processes power,

you worry to much about one thing, and something else gets left out down the road.
its money sex everything,
life needs a balance,
and everything for everything there is a time and a place.

 

[clu]

Recently, there were allegations against Tool frontman Maynard James Keenan for assaulting someone backstage at a Lolpalooza decades ago. And the story (in the pre-Argento fuck up MeToo era) floated around for a day, because the whole world knew what a crock of shit "her story" was that was posted all over twitter. The story died right away, thank god.

As for the caricature, yeah I know it's a bit ridiculous....but that is the world we live in, since what I've said isn't without merit anyways. It is known that NBC does have HR polices between men and female employees where you cannot have direct eye contact with them for a lengthy amount of time, as they would consider that a sexual agression to the female. This is lieu of the Matt Lauer's incident. Even in Netflix's offices, they've adopted a similar practice too. Even go to Feminism forums, and read their justifications for equating "being checked out from afar" is the same as being "raped". Hardly a caricature, when it's actual policy, or a policy in the making.

Then if you need to ask about "baseless accusations" it's not hard to find those cases at all. False rape allegations are hardly a myth, and the point lately has been amplified because of #MeToo...

"Mattress Girl" is the one that really sticks out to me, since she is the very caricature you speak of when you know the whole story.

I feel the argument's drifting. In reverse order:

I never said false accusations are a myth. (Though they are rare compared to legit rape. So rare in fact that a man is reportedly more likely to be raped than falsely accused.) You are saying that #metoo in particular amplifies them. I was asking for examples of #metoo amplifying it, not of false accusations in general which have been around forever for every crime in existence.

The NBC HR response is stupid but that's on HR not the "leaders" of Time's Up/#metoo.

The Tool example supports my point: abuse of the movement doesn't gain traction with society at large.

I feel that disavowing #metoo because of twisted abuses of it is like disavowing Christianity/Islam or Democrats/Republicans as a whole just because there are radicals that claim to adhere to their philosophy but pervert it.

 

[clu]

I know a young girl, she is going to m.i.t. she is or dresses very non sexual. smart as fucking hell.
a young girl showing off her boobs and her ass, may have boobs and an ass, but whats upstairs. quite often there as dumb as a fence post and broke.

Or maybe that's just the perception in the eye of the beholder because they see a pretty package and decide that's all there is:

Trolls Baffled by Victoria's Secret Model Who Codes

Even with proof to the contrary this woman's critics weren't buying it. Says more about them than her.

I mean come on, look at where we're having this conversation. There are women here who are sexy as hell and also refined/smart/worldly. They aren't all in their Clark Kent disguises in public.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

Or maybe that's just the perception in the eye of the beholder because they see a pretty package and decide that's all there is:

Trolls Baffled by Victoria's Secret Model Who Codes

Even with proof to the contrary this woman's critics weren't buying it. Says more about them than her.

I mean come on, look at where we're having this conversation. There are women here who are sexy as hell and also refined/smart/worldly. They aren't all in their Clark Kent disguises in public.

Carli Kloss (spelling?) is a model who's created a nonprofit foundation that runs camp programs to teach young women & girls to code! You're right in another way...the number of young women right here on PERB who show off not only their amazing figures in lingerie in their advertising, but also their amazing coding, photo editing, & graphic design abilities in their advertising would ASTOUND you. I would imagine that many of you don't ever stop to consider that, but I can think of one right off the top of my head that could, & HAS, turned that into a tertiary career for herself. Then there's the photoshoot styling. It doesn't just happen on its own. It takes HOURS, & time, & money.

 

[sevenofnine]

for the people who think,
every victim should be believed.

on a radio show today, three news stories came across the news desk in one week.
fox news,
five high school girls. didn't like a boy,
there was a lot of online stuff I guess, which culminated in a me too accusation
they were proven totally unfounded after a police investigation
the parents of the boy have filed a civil law suit.

McGill university a professor
confronted a rather head strong student, in I think an Islamic studies class,
both are Muslim,
there was a difference of opinion on the nature of Jihad or the duality of Jihad both as defense and offense
the student saying to believe that Jihad can be used as an offensive tactic is wrong. she I guess is very active and a head strong activist in the Muslim community.
heaven help you if you say anything negative about Muslims
anyway they disagreed, the student wouldn't stop at that,
started a campaign to have him removed, again with sexual allegations that were so vague
but the prof never received his tenure

ubc a prof has sued the university and won over similar allegations to the tune of 150 k

false accusations, to use the me too movement as a weapon, against someone you don't like or have a difference of opinion with,
doesn't help women or anyone that has suffered an assault

but thinking that no one ever lies, opens the door to all kinds of shit.

each case must have its own merit, and its own burden of proof

 

[clu]

No one has ever claimed false accusations don't exist. They claim that they are exceedingly rare. (Again, a man is more likely to be sexually assaulted than falsely accused.)

By contrast, there is a rape/sexual assault every 90 seconds. They just don't make the news.

It's like people fearing flying vs. driving when driving is much more dangerous, statistically, but every airplane crash makes international news. Imagine if every fatal car crash did?

It's like people fearing the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world because of the ones that make it in the news on terrorism related offences. Or fearing terrorism itself but opposing gun control, when the former makes the news but the lack of the latter kills 1000x more people. (Even the mass shootings that do make the news are in the minority vs. other gun related deaths.)

It's like "Black Lives Matter" which is not implying no one else's lives do, but attempting to remind people that they're overlooking the fact that black lives matter TOO.

"Believe the victim" means to take their story seriously, even when there is no smoking gun, because it's way too easy to have a legit rape case where there is not. How do you address that sort of thing?

No one is saying there should be no effort to investigate allegations, but the notion of burden of proof needs to be adjusted for what evidence is likely to be available. There's almost never a perfect victim and almost certainly no surveillance footage. Even DNA from rape kits can get caught up in the counter defence "it was consensual" unless she had a bit of his eyeball under her fingernail. So, to balance that, things like character witnesses and corroborating stories play a greater role, for example. "On balance of probabilities" is a phrase used in legal circles and it still applies.

Let me put it a different way: the current system severely under-prosecutes rape because of the difficulty in having a "perfect victim". All the usual "wisdom" (how she dresses, don't walk alone, etc.) actually doesn't put much of a dent in it. So how do you fix it?

 

[sevenofnine]

yeah I get it what your saying

but there are those with an agenda or white knights out there, who will believe what ever the victim says, regardless of any evidence or investigation,
and im not sure about your stats.
a police report suggested fifty percent of sexual assault or false

I would disagree with some of your statements.
yeah there a few Muslims that are actual terrorist but a vast majority will just stand by and do nothing when they know some thing is wrong.
only a few will get involved or voice a dissent,
and that is not just a jab against muslims, we are all like that,

and black lives matters.
I disagree with the movement,
its interesting but we will never know for sure,
but there was a documentary about Martin Luther King,
and it was suggested he would be directly opposed to the black lives matter movement.
a few scholars have come out against the movement as well,

it leads to an us against them mentality,
tribalism
Martin Luther King stood up for everyone's rights.
he include poor white people, native americans Latinos
if understand the history, he was at odds, with the black movement.

think about that for a moment
Martin Luther King was ad odds with the black movement,
he believed in people the rights of PEOPLE

there was an article on the cbc about ghettos in Calgary,
talks about the same sort of ideas though vaguely
immigrants being marginalized and being put into ghettos if not physically then mentally
any way if you don't include everyone, its going to lead to problems
and that is the problem with immigrants they don't embrace Canada, which leads to problems down the road,

and that is the same sort of thinking or problem with black lives matters
and gay pride,
your separating people into groups. and leaving people out, marginalizing people. pissing off others.
we are all the same all equal.

as soon as you differentiate you are going down a road, a bumpy road,

not only am i saying that,
wiser men then me are

 

[Shakerod]

If you're talking about Kavanaugh, that's accuser #2. On its own, who knows, but accuser #1 says she was locked in a room, pinned down, hand over mouth as attempts were made to remove her clothes. That describes something a "little" more serious.

Anyway, the #metoo movement does acknowledge mere stupidity FYI:

Her testimony was weak on details. She couldn’t remember the year, how many people were there, and how she got home?All the witnesses that she used said they couldn’t remember if anything happened? Too many could be’s, maybe’s, and I don’t know’s for my liking.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

No one has ever claimed false accusations don't exist. They claim that they are exceedingly rare. (Again, a man is more likely to be sexually assaulted than falsely accused.)

By contrast, there is a rape/sexual assault every 90 seconds. They just don't make the news.

It's like people fearing flying vs. driving when driving is much more dangerous, statistically, but every airplane crash makes international news. Imagine if every fatal car crash did?

It's like people fearing the 1.8 million Muslims in the world because of the ones that make it in the news on terrorism related offences. Or fearing terrorism itself but opposing gun control, when the former makes the news but the lack of the latter kills 1000x more people. (Even the mass shootings that do make the news are in the minority vs. other gun related deaths.)

It's like "Black Lives Matter" which is not implying no one else's lives do, but attempting to remind people that they're overlooking the fact that black lives matter TOO.

"Believe the victim" means to take their story seriously, even when there is no smoking gun, because it's way too easy to have a legit rape case where there is not. How do you address that sort of thing?

No one is saying there should be no effort to investigate allegations, but the notion of burden of proof needs to be adjusted for what evidence is likely to be available. There's almost never a perfect victim and almost certainly no surveillance footage. Even DNA from rape kits can get caught up in the counter defence "it was consensual" unless she had a bit of his eyeball under her fingernail. So, to balance that, things like character witnesses and corroborating stories play a greater role, for example. "On balance of probabilities" is a phrase used in legal circles and it still applies.

Let me put it a different way: the current system severely under-prosecutes rape because of the difficulty in having a "perfect victim". All the usual "wisdom" (how she dresses, don't walk alone, etc.) actually doesn't put much of a dent in it. So how do you fix it?

I think you meant 1.8 BILLION Muslims in the world.

 

[clu]

I think you meant 1.8 BILLION Muslims in the world.

Thanks. Corrected. I swear I wrote billion. I'm going to blame auto-correct.

 

[clu]

Her testimony was weak on details. She couldn’t remember the year, how many people were there, and how she got home?All the witnesses that she used said they couldn’t remember if anything happened? Too many could be’s, maybe’s, and I don’t know’s for my liking.

The Kavanaugh situation has been hashed out in great detail here:

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?258200-Brett-Kavanaugh-Circus

It is worth noting though that even the GOP "opposition" did not take the position that she was lying, but rather that she got the identity of her attacker wrong.