MDUCV - Declaring a Used Car's Value

maverick73

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Feb 2, 2005
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I heard that if a parent sells a car to his/her child, it can be declared for $1 to legally avoid the PST.

Is there a way to legally declare a value of $1 if a car is being transferred between 2 friends?

Please do not suggest anything illegal. I am a law abiding citizen. However, I believe in optimizing/maximizing a situation within the confines of the law.
 

Swguy

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Apr 26, 2003
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You can "Gift" the car to your friend. Your insurance agent will (or should, anyway) have a letter that you fill out when transferring the car that states that you are giving the person the car as a gift with no cash changing hands.

I've done it a few times, but its been a while so I don't exactly remember if its necessary to even declare a value for the car.


SWG
 

Jodie

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Mar 14, 2004
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Swguy said:
You can "Gift" the car to your friend. Your insurance agent will (or should, anyway) have a letter that you fill out when transferring the car that states that you are giving the person the car as a gift with no cash changing hands.

I've done it a few times, but its been a while so I don't exactly remember if its necessary to even declare a value for the car.
What he said. Ask the Autoplan broker for a gift letter. They will have a pre-printed letter where you just fill in your name and your friend's name, and you both sign it. You do not have to declare the value of the vehicle, but you will have to fill out a form APV9E Non-Market Value and Tax Exemption Form, in addition to the APV9T Transfer/Tax Form that everyone fills out.
 

Gentleman First

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May 30, 2005
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I am pretty sure

their is a timeline clause on transfer of material goods....as in if you transfer a car lets say, you need to wait maybe 6 months or whatever before declaring bankruptcy or else they can still seize it.

My friend tried it and they took the truck anyways....so much for him outsmarting them...LOL
 

sdw

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stiffdeadman said:
What are the rules if I want to transfer title of my car to my parents to avoid it being seized if i were to declare personal bankruptcy??? The car is still being paid for through a bank loan which me and my parents are co-signers on. I read something that if you declare personal bankruptcy the creditors will take your car for selloff, that you are entitled to the first $5000 of equity from the car, and the creditors get the rest to pay off as much of the debt as possible.
You don't seem to be understanding what bankruptcy is. It's not an alternative way of paying off your debts. Consult a good Lawyer before doing anything stupid.

Specifically on the car. The car will have a lien on it to secure the Bank's loan. When you go bankrupt, the Bank has the option of taking the car, demanding payment in full from the co-signers or participating with the other creditors in the meeting of creditors. Signing the car over to your parents is not possible until the Bank removes it's lien because they have been paid in full.

Generally on transfer of assets in the period prior to declaring bankruptcy. Any creditor my challange a suspect transaction. If found to be an illegal transaction, the creditors may then move to recover the full amount of the debt owed, the costs of collection and that interest that they would have normally received.
This is not available to them if there are no suspect transactions prior to the declaration of bankruptcy.
Normally, the secured creditors (those with liens) seize the secured property and the other creditors get to be paid a few cents on the dollar after which the person is discharged from bankruptcy without debt.
Huge difference! Big price for trying to hide an asset.
 

Gentleman First

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sdw said:
You don't seem to be understanding what bankruptcy is. It's not an alternative way of paying off your debts. Consult a good Lawyer before doing anything stupid.

Specifically on the car. The car will have a lien on it to secure the Bank's loan. When you go bankrupt, the Bank has the option of taking the car, demanding payment in full from the co-signers or participating with the other creditors in the meeting of creditors. Signing the car over to your parents is not possible until the Bank removes it's lien because they have been paid in full.

Generally on transfer of assets in the period prior to declaring bankruptcy. Any creditor my challange a suspect transaction. If found to be an illegal transaction, the creditors may then move to recover the full amount of the debt owed, the costs of collection and that interest that they would have normally received.
This is not available to them if there are no suspect transactions prior to the declaration of bankruptcy.
Normally, the secured creditors (those with liens) seize the secured property and the other creditors get to be paid a few cents on the dollar after which the person is discharged from bankruptcy without debt.
Huge difference! Big price for trying to hide an asset.
Wow great explanation....I will humbly sit back and learn now on this thread.

I tried to tell my pal not to do it, but he did anyways and he got screwed....live and learn i guess.:rolleyes:
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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stiffdeadman said:
What are the rules if I want to transfer title of my car to my parents to avoid it being seized if i were to declare personal bankruptcy??? The car is still being paid for through a bank loan which me and my parents are co-signers on. I read something that if you declare personal bankruptcy the creditors will take your car for selloff, that you are entitled to the first $5000 of equity from the car, and the creditors get the rest to pay off as much of the debt as possible.
I'm not an expert in this field but I know a reasonable amount about this subject. My comments, (for what they're worth) are as follows:

For starters you can't transfer the vehicle to someone else if the bank has a lien on the vehicle, which by the sounds of things they do. Secondly, if you personally declare bankruptcy, then they will still go after your parents for payment, this is the whole concept of co-signing for a loan. In terms of your entitlement, I'm not 100% sure, I know you're entitled to some equity in a vehicle, but I don't know if you have to have this on a clear title basis rather than this vehicle having a lien on it. I would think they are two different situations. In terms of hiding assets, I believe the courts can go back a year, (or thereabouts) and and reverse any transactions which are designed to circumvent the interest of the creditors. They tend to look at this issue very closely.

What you should consider doing is running these issues past a bankruptcy trustee, often they can negotiate a settlement whereby you pay a fraction of the amount owned under a payment plan, without actually having to declare bankruptcy.
 

BS Detector

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Sep 7, 2003
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sdw said:
Generally on transfer of assets in the period prior to declaring bankruptcy. Any creditor my challange a suspect transaction. If found to be an illegal transaction, the creditors may then move to recover the full amount of the debt owed, the costs of collection and that interest that they would have normally received.
Not sure such a transaction would be "illegal" per se but it would be deemed 'non arms length' with the express purpose of 'hiding' the asset from creditors.

Obviously bankruptcy is not intended to help us get ahead.
 

maverick73

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Feb 2, 2005
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Ok now...

I've determined that 2 people have to be living 6 months together to be considered "common law"... so it will be no problem for me to transfer my car to a lady friend. Now, for the hard part... I'm also getting a car to replace the one I am gifting... it's from a "friend" but not family or anything. Is there ANY LEGAL way of transferring the car with no value without drawing the attention of revenue canada?
 

Trevor2136

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May 20, 2004
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First off, it is completely legal for you to transfer a car that has a lien on it. It just means that the bank still has the right to sieze the car. For example, if I bought a used car that was advertised somewhere and the person selling me the car used the funds to pay for a Caribbean cruise instead of paying off the car loan and then defaulted on the car loan, the bank would still have the right to sieze the car and sell it to cover their losses. That is why it is extremely important to complete a lien search prior to purchasing a used car. You would think that the fact that you registered it legally would absolve you of this risk but it doesn't. The DMV doesn't care whether the vehicle has been pledged as an asset for a loan or not, it is buyer beware.

The comments regarding the bank siezing the car or going after your parents are correct. Also, it is a criminal offence to hide assets in the event of bankruptcy and that one is just way to easy to prove.

Secondly, the common law rules changed way back in the 80's. The common-law period is three-months under the family relations act or immediately in the event that the couple have a child together.

Thirdly, Revenue Canada (or whatever the current name actually is) doesn't go after you too much for assets like cars unless it was reported that you were trading cars for a living without reporting your income (usually cars go down in value so there isn't any income tax effect). In which case there would be a few other agencies also interested in you.

You are probably looking to avoid PST (there is no GST on used cars sold privately). That is the reason for the gift letter or declared value letter. Generally speaking, it isn't worth going after small sums of cash. Assume that your car is worth $20,000 in the market, the amount of PST owing would be $1400. If we assume that your declaration is picked out for further examination, then there would have to be a reason for the auditor to question the transaction.

For example a gift from a "father to daughter" who happen to have differing last names. Not too uncommon these days, so the auditor looks into it and finds out that the ages of the "father and daughter" are only 2 years apart, well that might raise some suspicions. Then they would have to conduct a more formal investigation.

All together let's assume that the auditor spend 40 hours getting statements and preparing the case and the supervisor 5 hours. If the auditor makes $50k a year and the supervisor $75 plus benefits. Then the cost of the audit is 40 hrs x $50,000 / 2080hrs x 1.35 to include benefits = $1298 + 5 hrs x $75,000 / 2080 hrs x 1.35 benefits = $243 or a total of $1,541 to chase a potential $1400 and I am probably low on the number of hours spent on the case. Finding the fraud is easy. Building the case is not.

The governement does look at the return on investment for auditors so they generally don't go after the small fruit at the top of the tree when there is big ripe juicy fruit that is easy to pick at ground level, unless they want to make and example of someone just to keep a few more honest people honest.

My two cents

Trev.
 

maverick73

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Feb 2, 2005
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Thanks Trevor2136!

Everything went smoothly. I've been breaking in my new car... everybody wants to race Mav! Did something I say on PERB make everybody hate me and wanna show me up at every stop light? :eek: :D

It's freakin fast... before I can say "I wonder how fast we're going" we're in 5th doing 200 and it doesn't even feel like we're going fast. At stop lights, I'm usually at the other side of the intersection before the car beside me moves. :D I love my new car!!! Yippee!

Disclaimer: no other cars were endangered in the writing of this post... if said car was really doing 200, car was isolated on the freeway and posed no danger to any other human being except the driver and a consenting passenger. :)
 
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