manslaughter vs 2nd degree

[Very Veronica]

So the little shit Aaron Hickey is finally having his day in court. Crown has settled on a manslaughter charge which has something to do with him being provoked. I'm guessing she told him to leave & they fought. Then he stabbed her 50 times so that the body was unrecognizable. My heart goes out to Tammy's friends and family whose next round of pain is dealing with an offender-biased justice system & one that looks down its politically correct nose at sex trade workers.

Tears over provincial court decision
Vancouver/CKNW(AM980)

9/11/2008


The family of a woman brutally killed in her Metrotown apartment last year is devastated to learn the accused will stand trial for manslaughter rather than second-degree murder.

Tammy Murray was stabbed 50 times and her body so was badly mutilated it took investigators two days to identify her.

Murray was an escort and her family believes her occupation has resulted in the downgrading of charges against Aaron Hickey accusing the crown of placing less value on her life.

Brother-in-law Michael McLeod is outraged...

"We have been through so much in this province with Willy Pickton and his victims and the inaction of the justice system in dealing with that and it's clear they haven't learned a bloody thing from it."

Murray’s sister Tanya says it doesn't matter what Murray did for a living....

"She was a really good person it just makes me so angry to know everything that I know and they're gonna give him manslaughter it's like what's the point just let him out."

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1025859

 

[teejay69]

Pathetic !!!

That is really sad. Guess the crown wanted 51 stab marks to constitute 2nd degree murder. Even if he was threatened - he could have walked away or even called 911 after say the first 3 stab marks.

With manslaughter - the creep will be out in 3 to 5 years.

 

[Cosmo]

Ahh Veevee.

I empathise with your frustrations.

But... should crown proceed with the 2nd degree murder charges, despite believing they might well not get a conviction on it?... or should they proceed with manslaughter charges with a strong belief they will get a conviction?

 

[BDAClub]

Ahh Veevee.

I empathise with your frustrations.

But... should crown proceed with the 2nd degree murder charges, despite believing they might well not get a conviction on it?... or should they proceed with manslaughter charges with a strong belief they will get a conviction?

manslaughter is when someone is cleaning their gun and it accidentaly goes off once killing a friend, one....two stab wounds you could make a case for manslaughter.....50 times please.......that's murder period and I don't want to hear any shit about his alcoholism or drug addiction or abused as a kid being a reason for the crown taking the cowards way out because he can be rehabilitaded.....fuck him your done!!

 

[FuZzYknUckLeS]

Yeah, I too feel your frustration over this VV. I first heard this on the evening news and the first thought that came to my mind was "Jesus, there must be something we, the public, can do about this, it's just so wrong!". But then, I don't know. WTF can one do? Sit by and watch and bitch? You've seen it happen so many times before. My heart goes out to the family. I cannot for the life of me imagine being in their shoes. If this was my sister or wife, and someone did that to her, and they were charged with such a shitass fukkin charge, I'd go vigilante on their ass. Maybe that's what it will eventually take. Loved ones dishing out their own 'sentences' to find justice until finally 'the man' wakes up and listens. Sure, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind but when you lose someone so near and dear to your heart, would you give a shit?
I wouldn't.

 

[tao]

Cosmo nailed it.

There are many examples, here is an earlier one from this year.

Rebar killer found guilty of manslaughter, not murder

A man who killed another man by driving a lengthy piece of rebar into his head on a Vancouver street has been found not guilty of second-degree murder but guilty of manslaughter.
After a day of deliberations, a B.C. Supreme Court jury rendered its verdict early afternoon Friday in the trial of Jairo Barrientos, a 23-year-old Honduran refugee claimant charged in the slaying of James Mintus, 21, in March 2007.

So the little shit Aaron Hickey is finally having his day in court. Crown has settled on a manslaughter charge which has something to do with him being provoked.

To convict of murder the prosecution must prove "mens rea", in other words they must prove the accused had a "guilty mind" prior to the crime. A typical defense is to say the victim started the altercation.

As childish as it sounds, often convicting someone of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter comes down to who started it.

It is more about capable defense attorneys than any theories about prosecutors evaluating the victims livelihood and reducing charges based on that.

 

[westcoast555]

There is no justice

So the little shit Aaron Hickey is finally having his day in court. Crown has settled on a manslaughter charge which has something to do with him being provoked. I'm guessing she told him to leave & they fought. Then he stabbed her 50 times so that the body was unrecognizable. My heart goes out to Tammy's friends and family whose next round of pain is dealing with an offender-biased justice system & one that looks down its politically correct nose at sex trade workers.



http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1025859

I saw Tammy ( 'Honey' ) as she was known in the biz several times and I thought she was a very beautiful and genuine person.

It angers me to see charges like manslaughter levelled at a psycho like that. Manslaughter is supposed to be accidental... like if you get in a street fight and punch a guy in the head and he falls down on the curb and dies as a result. I can't see how stabbing somebody 50 times is anything other than intentional homocide.

Our justice system is a joke.

If it's any consolation... I don't actually think it's Tammy's profession that resulted in weak charges... I think that our justice system does this to everybody - it values the criminals over the victims across the board.

There are NO violent criminals getting sentences that are appropriate these days. You can murder somebody and be out in 3-5 years.

They're now going to give that psycho Kelly Ellard a FOURTH trial for kicking to death and drowning Reena Virk 4 years ago.

Poor Tammy... rest in peace sweetheart. We remember you fondly.

 

[CJ Tylers]

That little prick deserves a murder charge... but their pushing only what they think they can nail him on.

 

[susi]

I'm hoping that there are some really good bad guys where he ends up that will take matters into their own hands.

Are there vigilantes in prisons?

It's nice to imagine that he'll get whats coming to him eventually...

xoxo
Nina

rest assured, there are good bad guys in jail. he will get what's coming to him if allowed to be in the general population.
i hope they at least give him the max penalty, sentencing will be another hard moment.
you'd think they would understand by now that by handing down these lesser charges and light sentences they contribute to it becoming acceptable to hurt us. since i started doing advocacy work i have wanted to see just one year with out the death of a sex worker...
susie

 

[Thatotherguy]

Cosmo nailed it.

There are many examples, here is an earlier one from this year.

Rebar killer found guilty of manslaughter, not murder

I've gotta say, tao, that's a very different case. In the rebar case, the guy was clearly acting in defense of his girlfriend who had been attacked and pushed to the ground. His response mat have been more than was required, but in that case there's absolutely no way of knowing if he was trying to kill the guy, or just stop him from continuing to attack his girlfriend. In the case of Hickey - well, obviously stabbing somebody 50 times with a knife shows a clear intent to kill them. That's a little different from hitting somebody once with a piece of rebar.

 

[FortunateOne]

I've gotta say, tao, that's a very different case. In the rebar case, the guy was clearly acting in defense of his girlfriend who had been attacked and pushed to the ground. His response mat have been more than was required, but in that case there's absolutely no way of knowing if he was trying to kill the guy, or just stop him from continuing to attack his girlfriend. In the case of Hickey - well, obviously stabbing somebody 50 times with a knife shows a clear intent to kill them. That's a little different from hitting somebody once with a piece of rebar.

I agree. I don't think anyone even picks up a knife without having the intention to kill. I don't believe they would have any trouble getting a murder conviction in this case, and that rebar example actually does support that. Considering the evidence, they could have gotten a deal on it IMO

 

[uncleg]

I agree. I don't think anyone even picks up a knife without having the intention to kill. I don't believe they would have any trouble getting a murder conviction in this case, and that rebar example actually does support that. Considering the evidence, they could have gotten a deal on it IMO

People do pick up knives every day without any intent to kill, but do they end up using it as a kitchen utensil, or does it turn into a weapon because of something that happens. Stabbing somebody 50 times would seem like intent to kill, but it would also seem to be a clear indication of somebody that was out of control. Prior intent and planning to kill somebody is what the crown has to be able to prove for a murder charge to stick. In this case I doubt they could prove that, in particular if drugs or alcohol were involved, and if both parties had it in their systems. Had it gone to trial, I doubt seriously a murder conviction would have come out of it, and it would have been left with manslaughter. This way he will at least do more time, because the sooner he is sentenced, the less credit for time served.

You might not like the justice system the way it is, but remember everything that is working in this guy's favour also works for you, if you get in trouble.

 

[westcoast555]

1st degree murder... and 2nd degree murder

People do pick up knives every day without any intent to kill, but do they end up using it as a kitchen utensil, or does it turn into a weapon because of something that happens. Stabbing somebody 50 times would seem like intent to kill, but it would also seem to be a clear indication of somebody that was out of control. Prior intent and planning to kill somebody is what the crown has to be able to prove for a murder charge to stick. In this case I doubt they could prove that, in particular if drugs or alcohol were involved, and if both parties had it in their systems. Had it gone to trial, I doubt seriously a murder conviction would have come out of it, and it would have been left with manslaughter. This way he will at least do more time, because the sooner he is sentenced, the less credit for time served.

You might not like the justice system the way it is, but remember everything that is working in this guy's favour also works for you, if you get in trouble.

You only have to prove prior intent for a case of first degree murder.

That (OK I'm not a lawyer) is my understanding of the difference between murder in the 1st degree and murder in the 2nd degree.

He may not have planned to kill her that night but stabbing her 50 times seems to indicate an intent to kill... but what do I know?

 

[MrPeterNorth]

They're now going to give that psycho Kelly Ellard a FOURTH trial for kicking to death and drowning Reena Virk 4 years ago.

Actually Reena Virk was killed Nov 14th, 1997 - almost 11 years ago now. Which brings me to another point - to find someone guilty or not guilty and/or sentenced without appeal in this amount of time is inexcusable. And a 4th trial is in the works... yah that's justice.

Ditto for the Air India bombing. That was 1985 for fucks sake. And I'm sure Bagri and Malik will walk away scott-free.

 

[tao]

I've gotta say, tao, that's a very different case. In the rebar case, the guy was clearly acting in defense of his girlfriend who had been attacked and pushed to the ground. His response mat have been more than was required, but in that case there's absolutely no way of knowing if he was trying to kill the guy, or just stop him from continuing to attack his girlfriend. In the case of Hickey - well, obviously stabbing somebody 50 times with a knife shows a clear intent to kill them. That's a little different from hitting somebody once with a piece of rebar.

You are missing the point, in both cases the defense claims the assailant was provoked. The prosecution has to establish the state of mind prior to the event, not during. Stabbing 50 X with a knife or once with rebar is irrelevant.

If you want a more similar example, look at the case of Mel Bruni, he beat his wife to death with a dumbbell on xmas day 2002. He struck her more than 20 X. A jury convicted him of manslaughter, not second degree murder.

Do you believe the prosecution reduced the charges because the victim was a prostitute?

 

[Thatotherguy]

You are missing the point, in both cases the defense claims the assailant was provoked. The prosecution has to establish the state of mind prior to the event, not during. Stabbing 50 X with a knife or once with rebar is irrelevant.

Hmm, I thought that it went as follows: intent prior to the event is supposed to be 1st degree murder, intent during the event is supposed to be 2nd degree murder, and killing somebody with no intent is supposed to be manslaughter. I'm no lawyer, though, so maybe I've got that wrong.

If you want a more similar example, look at the case of Mel Bruni, he beat his wife to death with a dumbbell on xmas day 2002. He struck her more than 20 X. A jury convicted him of manslaughter, not second degree murder.

You're right, that is a more similar example, and it makes me sick that in our justice system somebody who did that could be convicted of just manslaughter.

Do you believe the prosecution reduced the charges because the victim was a prostitute?

Well, I wouldn't rule it out entirely, but I think it's more likely that the prosecution just understands what a joke our courts are, and knows how unlikely it is to ever get anyone convicted of murder.

As far as I'm concerned, the Canadian justice system is a complete mockery. The courts are completely unconcerned with protecting the public, and completely unconcerned with punishing the guilty. All that they worry about is making excuses for the guilty, and rehabilitating them. I'm not against rehabilitation, but I firmly believe that in cases of violent offenders it should be a tertiary concern - only considered after considering what is appropriate to protect the public and punish the offender. In non-violent cases, rehabilitation can be the primary concern, as long as consideration is also given to restitution. Of course, I'm getting on a bit of a tangent here, because my big rant is really about what happens after conviction, and the issue in the Hickey case right now is getting a conviction (for the right offense!) in the first place.

 

[frostycreole]

Omg

Is Tammy = Honey who worked out a place close to Patterson and Kingsway...

Blonde, enhanced boobs, about 30ish.

If it is OMG I did not now it was her.....

I had seen her a few times there was always someone else there who would flick the lights when time was coming to an end...

Same girl?

 

[hunsperger]

As far as I'm concerned, the Canadian justice system is a complete mockery.

couldn't agree more...

but I guess we have to be content with and have no right to complain about a system that is CONSISTENTLY a mockery from one case to the next...

only in the legal world are you justified in screwing up today because you screwed up yesterday...

 

[vicgfelover]

Frosty - yes, thats who she was in her work life. I personally don't have a lot of faith in the "justice" system generally, let alone that it does a good job of going after those that perpetuate violence against a sex trade worker.

 

[trackstar]

Frosty - yes, thats who she was in her work life. I personally don't have a lot of faith in the "justice" system generally, let alone that it does a good job of going after those that perpetuate violence against a sex trade worker.

Want faith in the justice system? Look at the side that deals with financial crimes. Embezzle a million dollars and go to prison for longer than raping a 2 year old child or murdering a newborn baby. Human life means shit to our justice system compared to money. It's sad, but if that bastard would have emptied out her bank accounts and maxed out her credit cards after he killed her, he would never have seen the light of day again.