Carman Fox

MacKay announces that a bill is coming soon to regulate prostitution.

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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well the frame work is there.. People just have to insist on their rights.. .
I wish to note . Prostitution is allowed in Canada as a means of gainful employment.and is licensed in may cities.. So according to the gainful persuts section . I dok they can just take it away.. with out showing a demonstrated justification.
What "gainful pursuits" section? Just read the many many comments throughout the media for justifications against prostitution -- it is by nature exploitive of women, it is equated with abuse of women and children, it is slavery by men...etc., etc. You seem to have a blindfold on about what the government can and does do.

I agree with you, of course, about what everyone's rights should be.... but that has no bearing on what they actually are. I personally, being of a libertarian nature regarding personal rights, think the government has no business in anything I do that doesn't harm someone else. That doesn't give me any additional legal rights to do those things.
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,499
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@the Meat Market!!!lol
i like the universal declaration better...i use it often in my arguments with mainstream systems...i particular sections about equal treatement, hate crimes and the right to work.....here's a snip but click the link for the whole thing....

the charter is what we have so its where we have to win the fight bu the universal declaration is also useful as canada is supposed to be a leader in moving human rights forward...

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2008
1,499
384
83
57
@the Meat Market!!!lol
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx

this one is cool too...

Article 20

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

(this is where i think the feminazis have crossed the line. i believe the rhetoric and false claims they make about sex workers and clients are actually inciting hatred and should be considered promotion of hatred. after all it does lead to the deaths and harm of people ...after all, ALL are entitled to the rights set out in this document regardless of race, etc...or other status...i would argue we are an easily identifiable/visible minority )

Article 21

The right of peaceful assembly shall be recognized. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those imposed in conformity with the law and which are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, public order (ordre public), the protection of public health or morals or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 22

1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

2. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those which are prescribed by law and which are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, public order (ordre public), the protection of public health or morals or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on members of the armed forces and of the police in their exercise of this right.

3. Nothing in this article shall authorize States Parties to the International Labour Organisation Convention of 1948 concerning Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organize to take legislative measures which would prejudice, or to apply the law in such a manner as to prejudice, the guarantees provided for in that Convention
 

johnsmit

Active member
May 4, 2013
1,298
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I agree Sarah, it not ok to just think it Christian that are pushing their agenda.on anti prostitution.
There are many other groups of differing religious belief against it too

I kind of put my self up there as a target just by voicing my oppion on my form of christian belief.. I would say it not any where near what mainstreem Christian would accept as being Christian..

The only ones that think i might be christian is those that know me and my heart.. But my christian friends that acctually know what it is to be a christian. and that i share a similar spiritual revalation with.. Know it not about Doctrine and dogma.. It is about life .. The love of Jesus for us..and through him our love for everyone.
Yes i sound like a flower child :) peace
 

hornygandalf

Active member
I'm going to give a BIG voice of support for Ms. Sarah, johnsmit and others who may be closet Christians, Muslims or other faiths on PERB. Life is a lot more complex than often portrayed by fundamentalists of whatever creed, (whose beliefs are frequently dangerous as well).

Jesus did not condemn prostitutes, but showed them love and compassion in the same way as any other marginalised group. There is the incident of a prostitute cleansing his feet with oil and her tears. And then there is his encounter with the woman at the well, or the woman caught in the act of adultery (where was the man in this?), or possibly Mary Magdalene.

Yes, there is a faction of fundamentalist Christians apparently driving the push to tighten the legality of prostitution in Canada, but their views don't represent those of all Christians, in the same way that Muslim suicide bombers don't reflect the beliefs of all Muslims.
 

johnsmit

Active member
May 4, 2013
1,298
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And so my point is proven . between those who are in prostitution.. of all level
. who also remain in the closet along with those people who use their servies..And those of us who have faith but are afraid to voice what their belief is and how works in their life. Afraid because of uniformed prejidisual attitudes.. which are quick to judge.. It sounds like societies treatment of prostitution..
And prob many other thing that are ridicualed and attacted... I know it human nature..
 

CLUB78

New member
Aug 30, 2013
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LMFAO! That was the seriously funniest quip I have heard on this subject. Well done Roxanne!

I fear a Harper/Hydro bureaucracy model where all SP's will have a "Smart Peter Meter" installed. They will bill you by the millimeter traveled, with premium rates if you exceed 108mm per month, if your 'consumption' is at PEAK hours, or if your enjoyment level automatically puts you into the 'Tier II' rate class.

Oh, ya, and you have to put a new coloured sticker on your ass once a year, pay off your parking debts, and pony-up with TREO and Translink when they scan you for carbon tax pooning.

The gov't is already in our pockets, but they normally just privatize twiddling of my twigs and berries.

RIP Aldous Huxley.

-Punt.
Huxley pushed the envelope in every respect and he seemed to live a life where he never stopped to consider "what will people think of me if I do this?" I keep thinking about the whole camel being a horse designed by committee (like the Bradley Fighting Vehicle) and wonder what sort of mutated atrocity would become of the SP industry in government hands with several departments who don't seem to communicate with each other ? "Uniquely Canadian" solution means what? Inefficient? Convoluted? :D
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
2,097
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And so my point is proven . between those who are in prostitution.. of all level
. who also remain in the closet along with those people who use their servies..And those of us who have faith but are afraid to voice what their belief is and how works in their life. Afraid because of uniformed prejidisual attitudes.. which are quick to judge.. It sounds like societies treatment of prostitution..
And prob many other thing that are ridicualed and attacted... I know it human nature..
You are welcome to educate me....on how I should not be allowed to have sex with as many women as I want, because followers of an imaginary god think its a sin. LMAO! The fact you are a buffet Christian is great. But pretending this issue is not about religion is naïve.
The fact that not 100% of Christians think prostitution should be outlawed is a strawman. As in Canada, they are the leading voice against it. This is FACT!

The fact that the Christian members of this site are obviously not against prostitution, and therefore nobody can criticise the religion on the issue is comical.

And yes if we have muslims and jews in government trying to impose their religious beliefs on me, I would be against that too.
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
2,097
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Open hatred!
Where ?
Its called playing the victim card. Anyone against their religion is making a personal attack against them. Nothing new about that.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
Huxley pushed the envelope in every respect and he seemed to live a life where he never stopped to consider "what will people think of me if I do this?" I keep thinking about the whole camel being a horse designed by committee (like the Bradley Fighting Vehicle) and wonder what sort of mutated atrocity would become of the SP industry in government hands with several departments who don't seem to communicate with each other ? "Uniquely Canadian" solution means what? Inefficient? Convoluted? :D
"As Canadian as possible under the circumstances" -- Heather Scott of White Rock, in reply to Peter Gzowski's CBC radio contest in the 70s..."As Canadian as _________."
 

johnsmit

Active member
May 4, 2013
1,298
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38
Acctually it seem to be the word christian that blinds many people and stops them from reading and thinking about what is being said..

I am some one who has seem many an escort i work in the business..
so dont get me confussed with some self righteous Harper..
When some goes and pulls out lets slam the christain card.. i just say well make sure you know who your skaming because it aint me.. I am not a victom either.. .

Those that know better dont just keep plying the same tune...
like some one rightly pointed out.. It not just christians in the Conservative Party

Are the members now going to start yelling about those dam***** and those other.#%&*:;/*&%.. to because they allso are going to back this bill..

Sure i have no doubt that many members of the Conservative government. are driven by there beliefs.. beliefs i do not share in commen with them... ..

If you have some objection to what happening base your argument on facts.. Not unsubstantiated.
rhetoric.. or your own nonsensical prejudices.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
I never said it was.

Asian members speak up when Asians are unfairly stereotyped, Jewish members speak up when antisemitism is expressed.

I am speaking up against the stereotyping of Christians and the open hatred being expressed against them.

johnsmit and I have been good friends for several years, so no need to worry about that.
The views of "buffet christians" (as BC Neil referred to them) are completely out of the mainstream. Christians (with a capital C) identify with a specific congregation and accept their specific set of beliefs. You obviously do not, so should not be concerned with those criticizing "Christian" influence on our politics and culture. They are a dominant force in our culture (second only to money, I suspect), and I don't like it. When "Christians" stop trying to influence politics (like on this issue), I will stop my criticisms.

I certainly don't take offense when I see criticisms of "white people" in the media -- and there are any number of humour blogs concerned with this. Some of the stereotypes do apply to me (I can't dance) and others don't. Big deal...I'm still a white male, and get the benefits of that. If I lived in some areas of North America, I would suffer discrimination because I am not a Christian -- but it hasn't been in issue in my life.

In general, those within the dominant culture/race -- and who get the benefits of that status -- shouldn't whine about those who don't approve of them. In North America, white folks and Christians (and men) benefit directly from that position in our society. If you want to point out the inequalities suffered due to your gender or occupation, there is plenty of room there.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
Acctually it seem to be the word christian that blinds many people and stops them from reading and thinking about what is being said..

I am some one who has seem many an escort i work in the business..
so dont get me confussed with some self righteous Harper..
When some goes and pulls out lets slam the christain card.. i just say well make sure you know who your skaming because it aint me.. I am not a victom either.. .

Those that know better dont just keep plying the same tune...
like some one rightly pointed out.. It not just christians in the Conservative Party

Are the members now going to start yelling about those dam***** and those other.#%&*:;/*&%.. to because they allso are going to back this bill..

Sure i have no doubt that many members of the Conservative government. are driven by there beliefs.. beliefs i do not share in commen with them... ..

If you have some objection to what happening base your argument on facts.. Not unsubstantiated.
rhetoric.. or your own nonsensical prejudices.
And you are right. The main thing that motivates the Conservative Party is money. Getting the money means they need to stay in power. Part of what they need to stay in power is the backing of the fundamentalist Christians that form part of their base. If they lose them, they will lose power...and money.
 

johnsmit

Active member
May 4, 2013
1,298
16
38
Thank you HQ for posting the Rights and afreedome. every one should read it a few time.. And even go look up some of the vommetairies made about some of those rights that we still have to stand and fight for every bloody time

THANKS AGAIN.YOU. CAN BE A VOICE OF REASON
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
2,189
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And you are right. The main thing that motivates the Conservative Party is money. Getting the money means they need to stay in power. Part of what they need to stay in power is the backing of the fundamentalist Christians that form part of their base. If they lose them, they will lose power...and money.
Not to mention that a big part of the Conservative "Get Out The Vote" operation is the churches. Especially the Roman Catholic Church, but the conservatives also operate GOTV out of Sikh temples and Jewish Synagogues. There are also a surprising number of Muslims that support the Conservative Party.

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2010/05/07/how_canadas_christian_right_was_built.html
 

sdw

New member
Jul 14, 2005
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Maybe we should all start making huge financial donations to the Conservative Party if that's all it takes. :)

What's it called? Crowdfunding? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding
Actually, a lot of it is the delivery of warm bodies that can be relied on to vote. If you attend any of the nomination meetings for the coming election, you will see just how important the churches, temples and synagogues are. Where I live, the Conservative candidate was chosen by a church and a temple. The other candidates needn't have bothered to run. Of course, they took over the riding at the founding AGM where if you weren't a member of the church or temple - - - you didn't get elected to the executive.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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2. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those which are prescribed by law and which are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, public order (ordre public), the protection of public health or morals or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on members of the armed forces and of the police in their exercise of this right.
That is the bit that gives government the right to prohibit the activity.
 

leoghaire

Member
Sep 9, 2009
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an attempt to make prostitution illegal would fly directly in the face of the spirit, if not necessarily the letter of the Bedford decision sending the gov't back to the drawing board. I believe any law they try to pass, they will run by the SCOC before enacting so hopefully they can act as a brake against excessive stupidity
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
1,914
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an attempt to make prostitution illegal would fly directly in the face of the spirit, if not necessarily the letter of the Bedford decision sending the gov't back to the drawing board. I believe any law they try to pass, they will run by the SCOC before enacting so hopefully they can act as a brake against excessive stupidity
The SCoC decision specifically dealt with the issue of the laws in place that effectively endangered people otherwise engaged in lawful activities, it did not say that those activities were constitutionally protected. It used the lawful nature of prostitution as the starting point, and decided the other laws were unconstitutional as a result. BUT, if prostitution was made illegal, that starting point would no longer exist, and THEN the laws regarding solicitation, living off the avails and bawdy houses would be constitutionally valid.

There are two simple routes the government can take to address the problem:

(A) Make prostitution illegal completely. This would eliminate all constitutional problems with any other laws they pass that relate to prostitution.
(B) Target the clients. The constitutional issues that apply to laws regarding the selling of sex raised in the recent court case do not apply to the buying of sex.

The problem with (B) in isolation is that it could encounter a similar challenge, in that you would have one set of laws making it illegal to use a lawful service. This in not an issue in Sweden because they don't have a constitution like we do, but it may be one here. How the court will interpret that is not as clear however, since you cannot demonstrate a damage to the target of the laws when the target is the buyer and not the seller. So, what we will probably see is a hybrid of A and B, and I think it will look like this:

If I was the government, and was determined to have some sort of prohibition in place that allowed me maximum flexibility with enforcement I would first of all make prostitution a crime, but not one that carried a serious penalty. That would allow the police to stop the providers when they found them, but do it with intervention (compulsory attending courses, supervision, social service intervention, etc, with escalating penalties if someone did not "get the message"). By having prostitution as a minor crime, all gloves would then be off for anything related to it, which would mean that the government could turn things such as pandering, procurement, pimping, and using the services of prostitutes into major crimes that carried serious penalties (mandatory minimums for example). That would allow police to come down hard on the demand for prostitution, and soft on the supply of prostitution, which would fit well politically with societies general view of the dynamics involved in the industry. They could sell the idea to the electorate that this scheme would address the real source of the social problem by aggressively attacking the demand, while at the same time rehabilitating the "victims".
 
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