Liberal Agenda

[sdw]

I saw a picture that sums it up:

Trudeau has already promised that this is the last "First Past the Post" federal election that Canada will see.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...kill-first-past-the-post-by-the-next-election

I have never been a supporter of Proportional Representation - but many are, and they will now see how/if it works.

The National Post and Post Media must be suffering big time. Upper management forced their assets to endorse Harper and there are consequences. Expect to see fewer federal government notices and advertisements in Post Media owned Newspapers. Upper management could have made the choice to say nothing or to let the commentary flow from their columnists who didn't share their view, they didn't.

The National Post does have a map of 2015, 2011 and 2008 election results that is interesting.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...a-live-riding-by-riding-breakdown-of-the-vote

The Globe and Mail has an easy to use Election results page http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

We are going to all be able to sit on the sidelines and watch the Conservative coalition tear itself apart. It will probably tear itself into renamed versions of the Reform Party in the West and the other regional parties in the rest of Canada. With Proportional Representation, there is no reason to join a coalition, no reason to make compromises in your beliefs. We could easily see the "Life is Sacred" party winning in the Bible Belt, the "Barefoot and Pregnant" party winning in BC's interior, etc

Life is good for me this morning. Paul Dewar - gone, Pat Martin - gone, Megan Leslie - gone The atmosphere in the House of Commons has already improved with their departure.

 

[MissingOne]

I have never been a supporter of Proportional Representation - but many are, and they will now see how/if it works.

Proportional representation isn't the only possible choice for electoral reform. As I understand it, the Liberals want to do some sort of consultation process or committee work before settling on a new proposal for the electoral system.

I voted against the single transferable ballot system that was proposed for BC a few years back. I think I might now support such a system. Anyway, I'll wait to see what the proposals will be.

 

[hornygandalf]

There are more countries following proportional representation than first-past-the-post, and frequently they are better performing democracies.
There are also many different versions of proportional representation, some better than others. I think there is a lot of debate and discussion to be had around this issue.

 

[Tugela]

Proportional representation isn't the only possible choice for electoral reform. As I understand it, the Liberals want to do some sort of consultation process or committee work before settling on a new proposal for the electoral system.

I voted against the single transferable ballot system that was proposed for BC a few years back. I think I might now support such a system. Anyway, I'll wait to see what the proposals will be.

Actually, if you look at the results on a riding by riding basis, the outcome of the election with such a system would have been pretty much the same, only with a bigger majority for the Liberals.

Most constituencies were won with over 50% of the vote, or somewhere between 40 and 50%. There were relatively few three party races outside of Quebec (where the BQ presence makes things vague as to overall voter intention in the riding).

 

[sdw]

There are more countries following proportional representation than first-past-the-post, and frequently they are better performing democracies.
There are also many different versions of proportional representation, some better than others. I think there is a lot of debate and discussion to be had around this issue.

The National Post has calculated the difference between this FPTP election and a Proportional Representation election.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-looked-like-with-proportional-representation

It's one of the National Post's frame based graphics so I can't directly link the graphic.

In order to create a majority coalition, the Liberals would have had to share power with the NDP. The Bloc and Greens together would not have given the Liberals a majority coalition.

How many days would a Liberal and NDP coalition hung together? And it is days. Jack Layton broke the agreement with the Liberals in two days. In fact, the only reason he agreed to have a coalition with the Liberals was to create a bargaining chip with Harper for his budget shopping list. When Harper told Layton which orifice Layton could shove his demands up into - Layton then asked the Liberals to trust him again.

That's why Justin Trudeau refused to talk to Thomas Mulcair about any sort of coalition or strategic voting agreement. You only have to look at the actions of Leadnow and their recommendation on how to vote - to know that Justin Trudeau and the Liberals would have been royally screwed. In fact, Stephen Harper's Conservatives would have been re-elected because of the adverse vote splitting.

The Israel Proportional Representation system always leads to Ultra Right Wing coalitions because Israel has the same problem. When the Centralist party has the most seats (they usually do) a coalition with a left wing party always disintegrates. If they form a coalition with one of the right wing parties, the right wing party always gets the Justice Minister, the Lands Minister and the Military Minister as the price of the coalition.

I'd much rather see Preferential Ballots than Proportional Representation. With Preferential Ballots, the winner of each riding would have First or Second ballot support of 50% + 1 of their riding - but the "Sanctity of Life Party", "Nothing that Hanging Them High Won't Solve Party" and the "Women Should Be Barefoot, Beaten and Pregnant Party" won't be able to spew their filth in our House of Parliament.

Supporters of Proportional Representation should look at what actually gets seated under that election system.

 

[sdw]

CTV has an interactive map of Canada where you can click a province and see what each party won and lost. I, of course, clicked Quebec. The NDP lost 42 seats in Quebec, the Liberals picked up 33 seats in Quebec and even the Conservatives picked up 7 seats in Quebec.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/regional-breakdown-party-seat-changes-1.2619912

 

[hornygandalf]

The National Post has calculated the difference between this FPTP election and a Proportional Representation election.

I'd much rather see Preferential Ballots than Proportional Representation. With Preferential Ballots, the winner of each riding would have First or Second ballot support of 50% + 1 of their riding - but the "Sanctity of Life Party", "Nothing that Hanging Them High Won't Solve Party" and the "Women Should Be Barefoot, Beaten and Pregnant Party" won't be able to spew their filth in our House of Parliament.

Supporters of Proportional Representation should look at what actually gets seated under that election system.

It really does depend on the form of proportional representation used, and this is the probable out come from one of a number of possibilities.
I think the New Zealand system is interesting, as you get to vote for both a representative as well as the party (mixed-member proportional system).

Something else that happened in New Zealand was the splintering off from existing parties and growth in alternative parties, and I think that is quite likely here in Canada.

The NDP were slaughtered in Quebec. I hope they reflect on why that happened and what they should have/could have done differently.

 

[pro-boner]

It really does depend on the form of proportional representation used, and this is the probable out come from one of a number of possibilities.
I think the New Zealand system is interesting, as you get to vote for both a representative as well as the party (mixed-member proportional system).

Something else that happened in New Zealand was the splintering off from existing parties and growth in alternative parties, and I think that is quite likely here in Canada.

The NDP were slaughtered in Quebec. I hope they reflect on why that happened and what they should have/could have done differently.

Proportional voting is a loosers system. Where parties that are not able to get enough interest from the population to ever form government get to play power broker. Look at what happens in multi multi party states like Italy and Isreal. Both of which are much smaller countries than Canada, and should be easier to govern but hardly anything gets done.

Another really dumb idea is fixed election dates. The advantage of a parlimentary democracy is that if you can convince people to change the balance of power you can chuck out the bums when ever you have enough votes to do so, you don't have to wait and you don't need an impeachment mechanism. Being able to pick your election dates doesn't guarantee success, as illustrated monday's election.

 

[hornygandalf]

Proportional voting is a loosers system. Where parties that are not able to get enough interest from the population to ever form government get to play power broker. Look at what happens in multi multi party states like Italy and Isreal. Both of which are much smaller countries than Canada, and should be easier to govern but hardly anything gets done.

Another really dumb idea is fixed election dates. The advantage of a parlimentary democracy is that if you can convince people to change the balance of power you can chuck out the bums when ever you have enough votes to do so, you don't have to wait and you don't need an impeachment mechanism. Being able to pick your election dates doesn't guarantee success, as illustrated monday's election.

Same thing can happen in first-past-the-post systems with minority governments. Gridlock, and even in bi-party systems such as what we have to the south.
Given that there are way more democracies following proportional representation over first-past-the-post, I find it strange that if it is an inferior system countries continue to move to that. Nor have I seen an overwhelming number of countries gridlocked with hardly anything getting done as a result. What are you suggesting is a better alternative? Singapore? Nazi Germany? If you want stuff done, get rid of opposition parties... but that isn't a democracy. Democracy, by its nature, is messy, because we have a diversity of opinions and ideas. First-past-the-post system is rather poor at allowing that diversity of voices be heard. Proportional representation, albeit flawed, does allow a greater diversity of voices along with a greater need for compromise and a coalition of interests. Regularly Canada has a government where 60% of the population can feel their voice is excluded from government. There are better ways it can be done. Preferential voting is another possibility. But we don't need to only focus on the failures and say it isn't going to work. We can say exactly the same about FPTP and have seen the results of that here in Canada.

 

[sdw]

Here's a horrifying thought. There are currently 22 vacancies in the Canadian Senate. Harper, as Prime Minister, can choose to fill all 22 of them. Some of the vacancies have been quite long and, by law, need to be filled. Harper can also choose to leave the vacancies to Justin Trudeau to fill. Who fills the vacancies is going to have a big effect on our government, because, right now the Conservatives have a majority in the Senate. There could be a Conservative majority in the Senate for a long time if Harper chooses to fill the vacancies.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/SenatorsBio/standings_senate.aspx?Language=E

The CBC has done a nice piece on who won the regions, how much trading of seats there was, etc http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-numbers-1.3281210

The Liberals added 4,133,373 voters or 3 voters to every 1 that they took from the NDP, the Conservatives lost 54,268 voters, the NDP lost 963,704 voters, the Bloc lost 80,515 voters and the Greens added 38,860 voters.

The BQ gained nine seats from the NDP, while losing three of the seats they previously held.

Overall, here are the seat changes:​

87 gains, Liberals from Conservatives.
56 gains, Liberals from NDP.
2 gains, Liberals from BQ.
8 gains, NDP from Conservatives.
6 gains, Conservatives from NDP.
1 gain, Conservatives from BQ.
9 gains, BQ from NDP.

The only parties that both gained and lost seats to each other were the Conservatives and the NDP.

 

[bcneil]

Proportional voting is a loosers system. Where parties that are not able to get enough interest from the population to ever form government get to play power broker. Look at what happens in multi multi party states like Italy and Isreal. Both of which are much smaller countries than Canada, and should be easier to govern but hardly anything gets done.

Another really dumb idea is fixed election dates. The advantage of a parlimentary democracy is that if you can convince people to change the balance of power you can chuck out the bums when ever you have enough votes to do so, you don't have to wait and you don't need an impeachment mechanism. Being able to pick your election dates doesn't guarantee success, as illustrated monday's election.

Italy is substantially larger than Canada.....around 60 million people.

A lot of people voted for the Liberals because of their position on proportional voting. Gridlock can occur in any system, if you have participants trying to cause gridlock.

 

[sdw]

It really does depend on the form of proportional representation used, and this is the probable out come from one of a number of possibilities.
I think the New Zealand system is interesting, as you get to vote for both a representative as well as the party (mixed-member proportional system).

Something else that happened in New Zealand was the splintering off from existing parties and growth in alternative parties, and I think that is quite likely here in Canada.

The NDP were slaughtered in Quebec. I hope they reflect on why that happened and what they should have/could have done differently.

The NDP were slaughtered in Quebec because Quebecois are racist. Witness the Charter of the French Language (1977) in Quebec. In Quebec, only the French language is legal, in the rest of Canada both languages must be used. Witness also Bill 94. An Act to establish guidelines governing accommodation requests within the. Administration and certain Institutions (2010). Thomas Mulcair was a member of the Quebec Government that brought the bill in. He thought that Quebec wasn't listening to what he told the rest of Canada. Quebec was listening.

In the rest of Canada people thought that banning the Niqab was racist. In Quebec, removal of the Niqab to conduct business is the law.

 

[sdw]

another image that must be shared

 

[Tugela]

Here's a horrifying thought. There are currently 22 vacancies in the Canadian Senate. Harper, as Prime Minister, can choose to fill all 22 of them. Some of the vacancies have been quite long and, by law, need to be filled. Harper can also choose to leave the vacancies to Justin Trudeau to fill. Who fills the vacancies is going to have a big effect on our government, because, right now the Conservatives have a majority in the Senate. There could be a Conservative majority in the Senate for a long time if Harper chooses to fill the vacancies.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/SenatorsBio/standings_senate.aspx?Language=E

The CBC has done a nice piece on who won the regions, how much trading of seats there was, etc http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-numbers-1.3281210

The Liberals added 4,133,373 voters or 3 voters to every 1 that they took from the NDP, the Conservatives lost 54,268 voters, the NDP lost 963,704 voters, the Bloc lost 80,515 voters and the Greens added 38,860 voters.

Most of those voters the NDP "lost" were actually Liberal votes they got in the last election. All that happened was most of them went back to their usual party. They were not people who would naturally vote for the NDP.

The idea that the Liberals won because they "took" votes the NDP would otherwise have gotten is nonsense.

 

[Tugela]

The National Post has calculated the difference between this FPTP election and a Proportional Representation election.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-looked-like-with-proportional-representation

It's one of the National Post's frame based graphics so I can't directly link the graphic.

In order to create a majority coalition, the Liberals would have had to share power with the NDP. The Bloc and Greens together would not have given the Liberals a majority coalition.

How many days would a Liberal and NDP coalition hung together? And it is days. Jack Layton broke the agreement with the Liberals in two days. In fact, the only reason he agreed to have a coalition with the Liberals was to create a bargaining chip with Harper for his budget shopping list. When Harper told Layton which orifice Layton could shove his demands up into - Layton then asked the Liberals to trust him again.

That's why Justin Trudeau refused to talk to Thomas Mulcair about any sort of coalition or strategic voting agreement. You only have to look at the actions of Leadnow and their recommendation on how to vote - to know that Justin Trudeau and the Liberals would have been royally screwed. In fact, Stephen Harper's Conservatives would have been re-elected because of the adverse vote splitting.

The Israel Proportional Representation system always leads to Ultra Right Wing coalitions because Israel has the same problem. When the Centralist party has the most seats (they usually do) a coalition with a left wing party always disintegrates. If they form a coalition with one of the right wing parties, the right wing party always gets the Justice Minister, the Lands Minister and the Military Minister as the price of the coalition.

I'd much rather see Preferential Ballots than Proportional Representation. With Preferential Ballots, the winner of each riding would have First or Second ballot support of 50% + 1 of their riding - but the "Sanctity of Life Party", "Nothing that Hanging Them High Won't Solve Party" and the "Women Should Be Barefoot, Beaten and Pregnant Party" won't be able to spew their filth in our House of Parliament.

Supporters of Proportional Representation should look at what actually gets seated under that election system.

Proportion representation systems usually have a threshold to qualify for seats in parliament. A party has to get a certain percentage of the vote or they get no seats. In Germany for example it is 5%. If you got less than that you get no seats. So in that instance neither the BQ nor the Greens would have won seats in parliament in the 2015 election. Which is somewhat ironic considering that May was pushing for proportional representation

 

[mercyshooter]

Proportion representation systems usually have a threshold to qualify for seats in parliament. A party has to get a certain percentage of the vote or they get no seats. In Germany for example it is 5%. If you got less than that you get no seats. So in that instance neither the BQ nor the Greens would have won seats in parliament in the 2015 election. Which is somewhat ironic considering that May was pushing for proportional representation

In May's defense, you gotta look at each riding separately.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

another image that must be shared

Very true.
Even though I did not vote for him I hope Trudeau and his government do well because that means the country will do well. All the economists are saying, let's wait and see how the infrastructure spending thing goes before we jump to conclusions and I agree.

That said I will always remember what an old friend, who was well immersed in provincial politics told me. The easiest job in the world is being in opposition. You get to complain, criticize and come up with all kinds of alternatives to how things should be done, no matter how ridiculous, because you will never be held accountable or expected to actually implement any of them.

Now in Question Period the hunter has become the hunted. I will be curious to see how Justin does. As the leader of the 3rd party he got little time in Question Period. The seasoned politicians like Mulcair and Harper (or whomever the Cons choose next) will eat him alive unless he is very well prepared.

Cheers

 

[sdw]

another image to share

 

[hankmoody]

another image that must be shared

Very true.
Even though I did not vote for him I hope Trudeau and his government do well because that means the country will do well. All the economists are saying, let's wait and see how the infrastructure spending thing goes before we jump to conclusions and I agree.

That said I will always remember what an old friend, who was well immersed in provincial politics told me. The easiest job in the world is being in opposition. You get to complain, criticize and come up with all kinds of alternatives to how things should be done, no matter how ridiculous, because you will never be held accountable or expected to actually implement any of them.

Now in Question Period the hunter has become the hunted. I will be curious to see how Justin does. As the leader of the 3rd party he got little time in Question Period. The seasoned politicians like Mulcair and Harper (or whomever the Cons choose next) will eat him alive unless he is very well prepared.

Cheers

Yes and Yes.
I hope he surrounds himself with alot of very smart people.

Where do we get this government issue marijuana anyway?
Think we're gona need it...

 

[sdw]

Here's a horrifying thought. There are currently 22 vacancies in the Canadian Senate. Harper, as Prime Minister, can choose to fill all 22 of them. Some of the vacancies have been quite long and, by law, need to be filled. Harper can also choose to leave the vacancies to Justin Trudeau to fill. Who fills the vacancies is going to have a big effect on our government, because, right now the Conservatives have a majority in the Senate. There could be a Conservative majority in the Senate for a long time if Harper chooses to fill the vacancies.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/SenatorsBio/standings_senate.aspx?Language=E

Luckily for Justin Trudeau, Harper didn't appoint an additional 22 Senators as he could have. Since the Conservative Senators are now promising to block Liberal legislation, Trudeau can fill the empty seats and put a stop to that. He won't even have to do what Brian Mulroney did and "create" new Senate seats when the Liberals were blocking his legislation. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andrew-coyne-trudeau-facing-a-senate-conundrum