Know your chances (updated risk chart)

[UhOh]

Why isn't hooker sex wholesome and clean? As opposed to any other sex?

Go try to donate blood and tell them you've seen a hooker recently, see what they say. What do you know that they don't know?

Dude, you have got some issues. I would rather go see a lady who knows what she is doing and uses safer sex practices religiously than picking up gutter sharks at the Roxy or whatever dive bar you prefer to hunt it who thinks plan B is birth control. I guess I have more respect for the ladies here than you do.

Safe sex practices "religiously" are great up until a condom breaks. How many "religious" sp's have had that experience?
I've never been to the Roxy nor have I even heard of it and I'm not sure if I've ever picked up a girl in a bar. There's a lot of places to meet women besides bars.

Ive seen some of the women here and I wasn't disrespecting any of them. I haven't said anything that I haven't read here posted by some of these very same women. Every industry has good and bad. Some of these women have a lot more morals than you neighborhood preacher or public servant. Part of the problem with safety comes from the same guy picking up a crack whore on Hastings and then later saving enough to splurge on a perb advertisers.

You seem to think you can live you life in a bubble where everyone is like Honest Abe.
They all live happily ever after in your world.

 

[VanessaofBC]

1. Go try to donate blood and tell them you've seen a hooker recently, see what they say. What do you know that they don't know?



Safe sex practices "religiously" are great up until a condom breaks. How many "religious" sp's have had that experience?
I've never been to the Roxy nor have I even heard of it and I'm not sure if I've ever picked up a girl in a bar. There's a lot of places to meet women besides bars.

Ive seen some of the women here and I wasn't disrespecting any of them. I haven't said anything that I haven't read here posted by some of these very same women. Every industry has good and bad. Some of these women have a lot more morals than you neighborhood preacher or public servant.

2. Part of the problem with safety comes from the same guy picking up a crack whore on Hastings and then later saving enough to splurge on a perb advertisers.

You seem to think you can live you life in a bubble where everyone is like Honest Abe.
They all live happily ever after in your world.

Interesting perspective with both those comments, UhOh. Both are part of the reason I always have and always will provide a safe experience. That is the only way I can ensure the health and safety of others I am intimate with, both professionally and personally.

 

[wally*]

I have a question. In the old charts they used to mention the risk of hepatitis B where as in these new updated charts I can't see any mention of hepatitis B. Any clarification?

 

[UhOh]

I have a question. In the old charts they used to mention the risk of hepatitis B where as in these new updated charts I can't see any mention of hepatitis B. Any clarification?

Get the vaccine. There's no reason why hep A or B should be an issue anymore.

 

[BORKO]

Go try to donate blood and tell them you've seen a hooker recently, see what they say. What do you know that they don't know?

Come on, Blood Services requires you wait longer if you have gay sex, 5 years, than if you have sex with a prostitute, 12 months, and they will require a waiting period if you get a piercing or a tattoo as well (6 months):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2013/01/12/calgary-blood-services-changes.html

In fact they can also screen you out depending on whether you've been to other countries or if you have ever had sex with anyone from or that has been to Africa:

http://bloodservices.ca/CentreApps/Internet/UW_V502_MainEngine.nsf/resources/Eligibility/$file/ROD2012-11-01.pdf

And yes it does seem to screen out anyone that has ever had sex for money or drugs, but that in itself screams of a societal judgment rather than a medical judgment because it doesn't permanently screen out the johns too as long as they have not had paid sex for more than 12 months.

 

[Health Nurse]

Thanks for all the great comments that have been made.

Are intentions was never too create any fear or anxiety around having sex.

Sex is one of the most amazing things that people can experience and we certainly did not want to take away from this.

Our main goal of the chart was to answer the most common question that we get. Which is “I had this type of sex, what can I get?”

Also the chart doesn’t give any real statistical information on the exact odds of something passing (I will write more about this later.) it’s more of a chart with general information so that:

- People have an idea of what tests they could get.
- A way of comparing different ways of having sex and seeing how they have different levels of risk.

The last one is the main aim of the chart. It’s that idea of how can you make a little change to how you have sex and it makes a big difference on your chances of something passing to you.

There have been a number of questions asked in the thread. I will be able to answer these in the next few days.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

The Oral Sex chart has one big missing component - semen in mouth.
I believe that turns a bbbj from a negligible risk of HIV to medium to high risk of HIV.

This is a very good point about semen in the mouth. It seems that it doesn’t matter if you spit or swallow it’s about how long it stays in your mouth.

It makes sense that this would add more risk to performing oral sex but it is hard to know how much additional risk it does add for HIV. Research studies that have looked at oral sex have given an estimated chance of 1 per 10,000 sex acts for the person giving the BBBJ.

You would think having semen in the mouth would influence the odds.

The viral load is probably the most important factor. When someone first gets HIV (first 3-4 months) the amount of HIV virus in the body is really high which can make it easier to pass it on. If someone is on HIV treatment the viral load is usually very low which means it is harder to pass HIV on.

We also believe that oral health must be a factor as well e.g. healthy gums, good dental care etc…


HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[bcneil]

This is a very good point about semen in the mouth. It seems that it doesn’t matter if you spit or swallow it’s about how long it stays in your mouth.

It makes sense that this would add more risk to performing oral sex but it is hard to know how much additional risk it does add for HIV. Research studies that have looked at oral sex have given an estimated chance of 1 per 10,000 sex acts for the person giving the BBBJ.

You would think having semen in the mouth would influence the odds. The viral load is probably the most important factor. When someone first gets HIV (first 3-4 months) the amount of HIV virus in the body is really high which can make it easier to pass it on. If someone is on HIV treatment the viral load is usually very low which means it is harder to pass HIV on. We also believe that oral health must be a factor as well e.g. healthy gums, good dental care etc…


HN
www.smartsexresource.com

Can you clarify. The chances of getting HIV from Bbbj. Does 1 in 10000 refer to the male having HIV or a random male?

 

[Cock Throppled]

there are two types of women in this world...

those that don't mind the idea of having male semen in their mouth, and those that can't stand it

for the former, they will yawn and move on to the next thread after reading the tables

for the latter, they will see the absolute worst possible case scenarios in the tables, then post in the thread what great new insights they provide and how they back up their preferences to not taste male semen

both will go home healthy at the end of the night

it all has NOTHING to do with risks - for the women it has EVERYTHING to do with personal preferences, and for the men, outright ignorance

take a look around you and don't bullshit yourselves. how many people do you actually know who have contracted these horrible diseases? get real

Ridiculous comments.

I'm sure people who contract STD's run off to all their friends and let them know, right? Maybe share it on twitter and facebook? Get real - people do, say and have things they never let anyone know about, if possible.

Second - it should be ALL about the risks to the ladies and clients. A smart woman isn't going to compromise her health because she happens to like the feel of a bare cock and the taste of semen. Her personal preferences can be kept to her private life and there is no need for a professional sex worker to care about personal preferences when her health is at stake. Not to mention the health of her clients.

 

[Health Nurse]

Has the actual data been updated or just the charts?

If the updates reflect new information (changes in risks), are there any significant changes from the previous charts/versions? If there are, it would be great if you could quickly highlight them for us.. Or are they mostly minor?

When we made the new charts we had a look at the latest data and did make some changes.

- We now know a lot more about HPV and how it can be passed, especially with oral sex. Also with HPV we have seen that the HPV vaccine is working really well and it is something I would recommend to sex workers. I just wish it was cheaper.

- Also on the chart we made some changes with the HIV risk when having anal and vaginal sex with a condom. In the past we had the risk as lower because we figured if the condom broke it was the same as if you didn’t use a condom. The people who had the final say on the chart preferred to have the risk with a condom higher to factor in the chance that the condom could break or it was not used properly. We don’t see HIV being passed this way if a condom is used perfectly.


HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

Can you clarify. The chances of getting HIV from Bbbj. Does 1 in 10000 refer to the male having HIV or a random male?

The male would have HIV for this risk.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[bcneil]

The male would have HIV for this risk.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

So then if a random male has about a 1/200th chance of having HIV....I believe this is accurate for Canadian males?
That takes us to 1 in 2,000,000 for HIV transmission from a random male, to the female performing the Bbbj.

 

[SeductiveCameronDEL]

I have lost count of the fellas that see my pictures, and ask me if I offer Greek. When I say no, they go further. "Why not? Have you tried it? I'm sure you'll like it with me. My dick's not too big. Maybe you'd like to try it just with me, just once? I'll give you extra $$$. How much extra $$$ would you like so that you'll say yes."

It takes everything in me to not respond to this question with a "have you tried it?? Let's get something the size of your dick, and put it up your ass first".

...but that would be unprofessional and rude. A very funny story to tell, but unprofessional nonetheless.

 

[SeductiveCameronDEL]

there are two types of women in this world...

those that don't mind the idea of having male semen in their mouth, and those that can't stand it

for the former, they will yawn and move on to the next thread after reading the tables

for the latter, they will see the absolute worst possible case scenarios in the tables, then post in the thread what great new insights they provide and how they back up their preferences to not taste male semen

both will go home healthy at the end of the night

it all has NOTHING to do with risks - for the women it has EVERYTHING to do with personal preferences, and for the men, outright ignorance

take a look around you and don't bullshit yourselves. how many people do you actually know who have contracted these horrible diseases? get real

Wow. Way to generalize women into two sub-cultures. I personally don't mind semen in my mouth or swallowing. But I reserve that for my partner and not for my clients. I offered bbbj (without cim) before I was in a relationship, and it was ruined by the few that were disrespectful enough to go right ahead and shoot their load without any warning. A few bad seeds ruined it.

And who would be blabbing to anyone if they contracted an STI? Is that what people chat about around the water cooler these days? "Oh hey Fred! How was your weekend?" "Hi John, it was just great! Except for that pesky case of syphilis I caught". I think it would be very hush hush, especially for people who really believe that only "dirty" people are susceptible to catching things while "clean" people are not.

Anyone can get an STI. Even if you know your SP. Even if you know your client. Responsible SPs get tested every three months...but what happens if a condom breaks...or even doesn't, but they catch something in the meantime? Most STIs in women are without symptoms. You can't base a person's safety just on how well you know them or how clean they look.

The chart isn't useless. It simply points out that if you engage in certain acts, even if the chance is slim to none that you'll catch something, you're still putting yourself at risk by doing it. The choice to put yourself in these situations is yours, but you can't really act shocked if the worst possible outcome happens. You could be that 0.005%.

 

[Health Nurse]

From my perspective with a degree in health sciences, the chart may be easy to understand but is not that useful. The chart lacks useful statistical information. It simply classifies several STD's into very subjective terms such as "not commonly passed" or "easily passed". To me, these two categories need to be qualified statistically. What does easily passed mean? What are actual odds of passing?

In many cases transmission rates are represented by an equation much more complicated than indicated by the chart. If one engages in sex with herpes while in the prodromal stage or an outbreak the odds are much higher than when in remission. Most people abstain from sex during outbreaks, the same as couples tend not to kiss when one has an active cold sore.

Also, what is the prevalence of each STD? Oral herpes is fairly common. Syphilis on the other hand, much less so.

While STD's are a real concern, I think this chart is biased towards the alarmist side. From a medical perspective, alarming people perceived to be at high risk will have the best result in reducing STD prevalence, but it does not provide accurate and useful information.

I understand why you might feel that way with charts like this.

It makes it seem that no matter what you do, you will get an STI.

What we are trying to do with this chart is give people an idea of how things can be passed with different ways of having sex. That way, people can choose ways of having sex they are comfortable with and what tests makes sense to do.

By no means are we saying that you will always get an STI when you have sex.

Remember your risk of getting something is based on a combination of what is the chance your partner has something (prevalence) and what type of sex you are having.

HN
www.stiresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

question for the nurse, when it says "easily passed", is this a situation where there is absolutely no visual clues that there is an infection, or is "easily passed" only when there are visually observable symptoms as well? some of these things have some pretty obvious symptoms and I am wondering if this chart is generalizing for all situations, as someone would have to be really reckless if there were visible lesions or dripping to partake

what are the real risks if the organ is observably very clean in appearance, pink, smooth, absent of any bad taste or odors or lesions or pimples, skin intact and healthy looking?

It is very common that there are no visual clues (signs or symptoms) when someone has an STI. Generally for gonorrhea or Chlamydia, they are as easily passed whether or not there are visible symptoms. In the case of warts, syphilis and herpes they are more easily passed when there are visible symptoms. However, they can still be passed when there are no visible symptoms.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

in other words, that chart isn't very useful, if what it is telling us is "if you suck a penis that is dripping with gonorreah, you will easily get gonorreah" (duh) ..... when it is more useful for us to know "if you partake in oral sex with what under close observation looks to be a clean healthy sex organs, free of lesions or other obvious signs of problems, your odds of getting something are 0.0005%"

this is the kind of information we really want to see

Yes, we can see how people would like actual numbers. Some of this precise information is not available.

In many cases, it is impossible to do ethical research to get this data.

But, if you have a specific question, we are willing to see if we can find any studies to answer your question.

At the end of the day it comes down to different degrees of “maybe”. Since most STI’s do not show symptoms we always encourage testing based on what you did, rather than statistical odds that we don’t have good data on.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

First I would like to take the opportunity to thank the health nurses for their continued support of the industry. I am not alone in stating that it is very much appreciated : )

Now, with respect to some of the concerns addressed in this thread…

I am also interested in knowing more statistics regarding the susceptibility of specific activities. However, I also understand that in-depth statistical research is an extraordinarily complex undertaking which is likely beyond their intended scope. The purpose of the charts, I believe, was to discuss the potential risks in the sex industry in a more abstract fashion.

Now, if we wanted to look at risk more specifically, we would have to acknowledge that the susceptibility of getting a disease is solely based upon the merger of Person A’s sexual history coupled with Person B’s sexual history and the activities that they choose to engage in whilst together. Thus, the level of risk is contextually based which makes it very difficult to provide specific statistics.

I think the point that the health nurses were making was simple: higher risk services imply a higher risk to both partners. However, this does not mean that if you engage in these activities you will automatically catch something nor does it provide assurance that you will not. The purpose was solely to inform.

It is important to note, however, that knowledge of risk is not a defense strategy against risk. Knowledge is merely an informative tool that allows individuals to decide for themselves their own comfort level and the potential risks within their choices.

I also wanted to comment on the perception that diseases are more likely to occur within certain socio-economic categories. I am not convinced that a gentleman is safer with a lady who charges more and consequently more at risk with a lady who charges less. I doubt that diseases recognize “class” barriers.

Now, one might argue that higher priced girls see fewer clients than lower priced girls thus making them a “safer” choice. Although I believe that there are many “low volume” girls who see only a handful of clients, there are just as many ladies that employ the term “low volume” as a marketing tool to garner a higher price point and are just as active as lower priced girls. Thus, it is difficult to determine whether or not a lady is a “safer” choice solely based upon her price point and how she presents herself in her advertising.

The point that I am trying to make is that, in the end, we will never know the full sexual history of the people that we choose to spend time with. It is possible that someone can catch something the first time they engage in these activities or not at all during one’s tenure in the industry. All we can do is inform ourselves of the potential risks and then make choices that coincide with our individual comfort level.

Thanks Erica

We really appreciate your great summary.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

I have a question. In the old charts they used to mention the risk of hepatitis B where as in these new updated charts I can't see any mention of hepatitis B. Any clarification?

Hi Wally

I am so glad that you brought this up.

Hepatitis B is certainly something out there and can pass with sex since it is in the sexual fluid and in the saliva.

The problem we found is that we wanted to look for the latest research when doing the chart and since the hepatitis B vaccine has come in Canada the numbers are getting so low that it makes it hard to get good local data.

We are still seeing new cases in Canada but they are typically from people who have moved to Canada from a country that has a high rate of hepatitis B. Usually countries that don’t have enough public health dollars to allow hepatitis B testing for pregnant woman or vaccines for the children.

I have tested many people at the clinic who moved to Canada and were unaware that they have hepatitis B and that they probably got it passed to them when they where a child.

This means there is defiantly hepatitis B out there in the lower mainland but my usual advice is the best protection is the hepatitis B vaccine and using condoms.

You can get the hepatitis B vaccine for free in BC; here is a link for more information.
http://immunizebc.ca/diseases-vaccinations/hepatitis-b

HN
www.smartsexresource.com

 

[Health Nurse]

So then if a random male has about a 1/200th chance of having HIV....I believe this is accurate for Canadian males?
That takes us to 1 in 2,000,000 for HIV transmission from a random male, to the female performing the Bbbj.

Hi

This is a great example of how numbers can help in some situations but may not be as helpful in others.

Most of the numbers that are produced by research studies can be helpful for health care workers plan their work. For example with the above numbers they can combine the chance of getting HIV with how common HIV is in their community, this can help with health planning. These numbers are helpful when looking at large groups of people.

These numbers have less meaning when you start talking about individual people.

People want to know what their chances are in that situation. Let’s look at our above example of the chances of getting HIV when performing oral sex on a man. The man either has HIV or he does not. If he doesn’t have HIV there is zero risk to you.

The basic number we are given is 1 in 10,000 if they have HIV.

The amount of virus makes a big difference; they currently think that the amount of virus when someone first gets HIV (first 3-4 months) can increase your chance of getting it by 26 times. Also it seems if one person has herpes or syphilis the chance can increase by 2. Does the person performing oral sex have an infected tooth? On the other hand if someone is on treatment for HIV most of the time they can’t even detect any HIV in the person’s blood or semen, which would really decrease the chance.

As you can see depending on the situation it’s really easy to change that 1 in 10,000 to a completely different number.

This is why we ended up not using actual numbers when describing your chances in the chart but made categories that would allow people concerned about a particular STI, to see what types of sex make it easy to get and what types of sex are safer.

I can see how people would like more detailed information but that would require us to ask a few more questions about your individual situation. Feel free to visit us at the clinic, send a PM or ask us a question on smartsexresource.com

We certainly don’t want to scare anyone when having sex; it’s just that a few ways of doing it make a big difference.

HN
www.smartsexresource.com