japan relief funds

[vancity_cowboy]

i have tremendous sympathy for the japanese people affected by the earthquake and subsequent tsunami and all the resulting chaos, but i have some serious questions about donating funds to japan to help them out. these questions are:

when forest fires were gutting communities in british columbia recently, did the japanese do any of the following:

send one penny of funds to help the affected people out and re-build their communities? to my knowledge, no

send us firefighters and equipment to help control the devastation? to my knowledge, no

send us any technical advise on how to resolve the situation? to my knowledge, no

in addition, the news media all call japan 'the richest nation in asia'

so what are we doing sending hard earned dollars to japan to 'help them out' when there are so many problems here that could really use the funds or the volunteer time to really make a difference?

apologies in advance to anybody that is offended by my curmudgeony (and perhaps cheap) approach to things

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Did you actually just compare an 8.9 magnitude earthquake+tsunami+nuclear crisis causing millions to be without power or water, to........... forest fires? Really, I must have read it wrong.

 

[myselftheother]

Did you just actually just compare an 8.9 magnitude earthquake+tsunami+nuclear crisis causing millions to be without power or water, to........... forest fires? Really, I must have read it wrong.

Right what I was thinking. What has happened in Japan will take them decades to recover from. 100's of billions of $$ in damage, 17,000 people missing from a village swept away in the tsunami, millions without power, fresh water, food and shelter, never mind threat of more earthquakes, and radiation from multiple catastrophic nuclear reactor meltdown, which in itself is devastating....

Might wanna do a rethink on this. Our forest fires didn't impact the world trade markets. This may send the markets into a new tailspin....the repercussions from the moment it happened to far into the future.

 

[Ray]

I'm glad the OP at least didn't mention Pearl Harbor as many intellectually deficient people to the South of us are doing.

Lets also not forget how many auto plants the Japanese have opened in Canada creating employment by the thousands, if not tens of thousands.

 

[Pillowtalk]

Don't know about BC forest fire help, but I do remember them being involved after Hurricane Katrina. (wikipedia entry below);

The Japanese Foreign Ministry said that it would provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina. Japan also identified needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and provided up to $1,000,000 in emergency supplies such as tents, blankets and power generators if they receive requests from the U.S. for such assistance. Private and corporate donations totaled over $13,000,000. One Japanese individual, Takashi Endo, donated USD $1,000,000 from his personal funds to Katrina relief efforts.

 

[wilde]

If there is ever a time for us to put aside our petty differences, this is it...

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

Can't argue with that, but if I'm donating money it's still going to Haiti.

If there is ever a time for us to put aside our petty differences, this is it...

 

[vancity_cowboy]

interesting responses

bijou, the severity of a forest fire has a lot to do with whether its your house going up in flames or whether you are watching it on tv from your concrete highrise. remember that people die in forest fires too

myselfthe other, i'm not talking about costs of rebuilding, i'm talking about relief costs. so lets do some arithmetic. lets say that the immediate relief costs in japan will be something like what... 25 billion dollars? and the population of japan is what... 127 million people? so $25,000,000,000 / 127,000,000 = approximately $200 per capita

forest fire budget for bc in 2003 was approximately 1 billion dollars http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/auth/english/maps/environment/naturalhazards/forest_fires/1
population of bc is approximately 4 million http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/population_of_british_columbia_2003
so $1,000,000,000 / 4,000,000 = $250 per capita

so i'm going to admit that there are a hell of a lot of assumptions in the above numbers, but really folks - the per capita impact is at least the same order of magnitude for the 2003 forest fire year as it is for the 2011 japanese earthquake/tsunami relief budget

now i realize you can't put a cost on people feeling good about what they have done, but in terms of economics i maintain that japan is pefectly capable of dealing with their own problem, as we had to do during the 2003 bc forest fire season

FSD i agree there, haiti was and is a basket case economically, and really do need and probably deserve the funds

 

[Miss*Bijou]

interesting responses

bijou, the severity of a forest fire has a lot to do with whether its your house going up in flames or whether you are watching it on tv from your concrete highrise. remember that people die in forest fires too

myselfthe other, i'm not talking about costs of rebuilding, i'm talking about relief costs. so lets do some arithmetic. lets say that the immediate relief costs in japan will be something like what... 25 billion dollars? and the population of japan is what... 127 million people? so $25,000,000,000 / 127,000,000 = approximately $200 per capita

forest fire budget for bc in 2003 was approximately 1 billion dollars http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/auth/english/maps/environment/naturalhazards/forest_fires/1
population of bc is approximately 4 million http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/population_of_british_columbia_2003
so $1,000,000,000 / 4,000,000 = $250 per capita


so i'm going to admit that there are a hell of a lot of assumptions in the above numbers

Your argument is based on #'s you just guessed.? Just like that? Ouch That makes my head hurt.

So why are we even debating fictitious amounts? No offense, but that's kind of pointless and a bit ridiculous...


But regardless, your calculations are irrelevant. What is relevant, however, is the total #'s of humans affected. I'm not in any way saying forest fires aren't severe or tragic for those affected. What I am saying is that the number of people affected by the Japan crisis is on a massive scale that put it in a completely different league. The logistics of relief efforts in Japan is wildly greater.

How many people had to be evacuated in the fires? How many of them had a home to go back to and how many didn't? How many of them had a pile of rubble and some missing family members to dig out of if they wanted to have some sort of funeral or ceremony? How many had their entire villages, with all inhabitants swept away by a gigantic wave, leaving nothing left standing? Did you hear of 2million + people without water or power and freezing and no idea when to expect a resolution? Ok so now what about Japan? Just a little bit more, eh?


I'm not minimizing the severity of the fires at all, but if you really think that not only are these comparable, but that the relief efforts for those affected by the forest fires were actually greater than those that are and will be needed in Japan...uh.. I really don't know how you can come to that conclusion! Did thousands of people perish and lose their homes in BC too?


And finally, why would *only* relief efforts matter or count? The rebuilding efforts is just as much part of the overall crisis and a factor in determining severity and needs? I don't understand why that would be separate. Sorry, your arguments don't seem too convincing to me at this point. And the guess-timations don't really help to be honest..

 

[klamkracker]

I will give $100.00 if someone wants to start up a fund to send to Japan.

 

[mistressfreyja]

I don't know if I can watch much more footage, cuz I feel sick to my stomach and tears well up. This is the worst disaster to human life that I have ever lived through. I feel guilty for sitting here, able to pontificate what a disaster even is.

If there is ever a time for us to put aside our petty differences, this is it...

 

[shaggadelic]

i have tremendous sympathy for the japanese people affected by the earthquake and subsequent tsunami and all the resulting chaos, but i have some serious questions about donating funds to japan to help them out. these questions are:

when forest fires were gutting communities in british columbia recently, did the japanese do any of the following:

send one penny of funds to help the affected people out and re-build their communities? to my knowledge, no

send us firefighters and equipment to help control the devastation? to my knowledge, no

send us any technical advise on how to resolve the situation? to my knowledge, no

in addition, the news media all call japan 'the richest nation in asia'

so what are we doing sending hard earned dollars to japan to 'help them out' when there are so many problems here that could really use the funds or the volunteer time to really make a difference?

apologies in advance to anybody that is offended by my curmudgeony (and perhaps cheap) approach to things

First off, I'm going to apologize to you for what I'm about to say because it is going to come across as abrasive but...

It is moments like what happened in Japan that can bring out the true nature of people--those with a giving heart, and those, well, like you

If you don't want to donate for whatever reason, then don't. No one is twisting your arm. But don't come onto boards and preach about why we shouldn't be donating. I have read posts by a number of people like yourself going on discussion boards about donating to Japan just to piss on their parade, trying to convince others they shouldn't be donating because a) Japan is rich, b) they had it coming (karma), c) they didn't help us when we needed help, d) there are other people/problems that need our money more, etc...

It's so irritating that not only do you not want to donate (which is fine) but you feel it is necessary to try and convince others. Seriously, you (and those with a similar mentality) should give your head a shake.

 

[myselftheother]

interesting responses

bijou, the severity of a forest fire has a lot to do with whether its your house going up in flames or whether you are watching it on tv from your concrete highrise. remember that people die in forest fires too

myselfthe other, i'm not talking about costs of rebuilding, i'm talking about relief costs. so lets do some arithmetic. lets say that the immediate relief costs in japan will be something like what... 25 billion dollars? and the population of japan is what... 127 million people? so $25,000,000,000 / 127,000,000 = approximately $200 per capita

forest fire budget for bc in 2003 was approximately 1 billion dollars http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/auth/english/maps/environment/naturalhazards/forest_fires/1
population of bc is approximately 4 million http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/population_of_british_columbia_2003
so $1,000,000,000 / 4,000,000 = $250 per capita

so i'm going to admit that there are a hell of a lot of assumptions in the above numbers, but really folks - the per capita impact is at least the same order of magnitude for the 2003 forest fire year as it is for the 2011 japanese earthquake/tsunami relief budget

now i realize you can't put a cost on people feeling good about what they have done, but in terms of economics i maintain that japan is pefectly capable of dealing with their own problem, as we had to do during the 2003 bc forest fire season

FSD i agree there, haiti was and is a basket case economically, and really do need and probably deserve the funds

This is complete drivel and hyperbolic nonsense. Forest fire affected a few thousand, and with a lot of warning people got out. They could see it coming.

As for Japan.....this is going to cost a lot more than 25 billion. Multiply that by ten, just to start. Forest fires in 2003 were tragic and it had few long term effects for folks in the Okanagan. Japan...long term effects for millions for decades. They didn't see the earthquake coming, or had radio reports prior to it happening, no warning that an 8.9 was going to happen in an hour, with a tsunami shortly there after, and for people to be on an alert to evacuate.

Fuck the numbers. People are in severe distress. Time to help.

 

[shaggadelic]

Vancity Cowboy, as they say "Karma is a bitch you know". We are in an earthquake zone in case you didn't realize. It is highly likely our "big one" is going to hit within our lifetime, which is estimated to be even bigger than Japan's 9.0. I am sure when that day comes, you would know what the Japanese is going through now and hopefully realize just how twisted your logic is.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Japan is a country, BC is a province (i.e. one part of a country). Even if your train of thought is valid, and even if your estimate of the relief costs were close to acurate (two really big ifs IMO) the polulation of Canada in 2003 was 31,676,000. $1,000,000,000/31,676,000=$31.57.

forestry is provincial jurisdiction therefore the cost of firefighting was borne by the taxpayers of bc. re-building costs may have been partially borne by Canada, but that is not what we are talking about

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Your argument is based on #'s you just guessed.? Just like that? Ouch That makes my head hurt.

bijou, of the four numbers i presented, only one is an estimate (not a guess, you may deal with guesses, but i and most of the rest of the logical thinking world make an estimate when the event hasn't even gone to completion yet). i presented links to two of the sources for others to verify (as many posters here do not do)

my estimate may be right on the money or it may be way out of whack, but it is the basis for discussion and decision-making. if the estimate is within a factor of 10 of being correct (one order of magnitude) then one assumes that it is good enough for the present. if it is out by a factor of 100 (two orders of magnitude) then one begins to wonder about the validity of decisions made based on that estimate

personally i think the 25 billion relief cost might be low, but i was using myselftheother's estimate as a basis of mine

in terms of re-building cost, we are probably talking about trillions for sure, but you can bet that not one penny of your red cross dollars is going toward re-building

 

[vancity_cowboy]

First off, I'm going to apologize to you for what I'm about to say because it is going to come across as abrasive but...

It is moments like what happened in Japan that can bring out the true nature of people--those with a giving heart, and those, well, like you

If you don't want to donate for whatever reason, then don't. No one is twisting your arm. But don't come onto boards and preach about why we shouldn't be donating. I have read posts by a number of people like yourself going on discussion boards about donating to Japan just to piss on their parade, trying to convince others they shouldn't be donating because a) Japan is rich, b) they had it coming (karma), c) they didn't help us when we needed help, d) there are other people/problems that need our money more, etc...

It's so irritating that not only do you not want to donate (which is fine) but you feel it is necessary to try and convince others. Seriously, you (and those with a similar mentality) should give your head a shake.

well i'm glad to see some character assassination in this thread because that is what people tend to resort to when they can't find a valid arguement to the op's point of view

but please, read my posts

NOWHERE do i preach that anybody should not be donating

what i am saying is that people who donate should be doing so with a completely clear undersdtanding of what they are doing. in this case people donating funds are doing so to make themselves feel good about themselves - and that is not a bad thing at all

however, donaters should understand that we have experienced some pretty horrific emergencies ourselves, and we paid for it completely out of our own tax dollars with no help from the world at large

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Vancity Cowboy, as they say "Karma is a bitch you know". We are in an earthquake zone in case you didn't realize. It is highly likely our "big one" is going to hit within our lifetime, which is estimated to be even bigger than Japan's 9.0. I am sure when that day comes, you would know what the Japanese is going through now and hopefully realize just how twisted your logic is.

yes you are right, i posted a detailed explanation of the logic behind your assertion recently, but the mods removed the thread for some reason unknown to me. i also posted it in another place where it has been left up if you wish to read it

 

[Miss*Bijou]

vancity_cowboy, I guess what it boils down to is that your attitude about it sort of seems petty to me. Even if you truly believe the 2 events are comparable, the whole "well they didn't help us then, so why should we/I help them now" just sounds petty. Who cares? Are we keeping scores? Is that why you give? A condition or prerequisite? That you get something back? I guess some of us don't see the relevance or value of that line of thinking. Like, who cares? Seriously... who cares.


Watch or read the reports, see the images and imagine what these people are going through.. Picture yourself instead of them if you need to...and what it inevitably boils down to for me and I suspect for many others too, is who cares about keeping scores or anything other than what's going on there right now and what the immediate needs of the people are right now.


Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, like everybody. And obviously no one is going to force you to donate as you have every right to choose not to. But you have to realize that you going one step further and trying to argue a point that seems really petty to me, is going to cause some pretty strong responses.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

vancity_cowboy, I guess what it boils down to is that your attitude about it sort of seems petty to me. Even if you truly believe the 2 events are comparable, the whole "well they didn't help us then, so why should we/I help them now" just sounds petty. Who cares? Are we keeping scores? Is that why you give? A condition or prerequisite? That you get something back? I guess some of us don't see the relevance or value of that line of thinking. Like, who cares? Seriously... who cares.


Watch or read the reports, see the images and imagine what these people are going through.. Picture yourself instead of them if you need to...and what it inevitably boils down to for me and I suspect for many others too, is who cares about keeping scores or anything other than what's going on there right now and what the immediate needs of the people are right now.


Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, like everybody. And obviously no one is going to force you to donate as you have every right to choose not to. But you have to realize that you going one step further and trying to argue a point that seems really petty to me, is going to cause some pretty strong responses.

thank you miss bijou for this response, which seems to me to be from the heart, not from a knee-jerk to somebody going against the popular grain. this adds value to the discussion rather than trying to tear down the basis for discussion

+1 for you for sure