Carman Fox

It was 100% the pigeon pie that killed Joffrey in the Purple Wedding...

huggzy

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...and it was either Marjorie who hand fed Joffrey the pie that did it - where he immediately starts feeling the effects of the poison as soon as he takes the first bite from her....

Or...it might have been Grand Maester Pycell that did it when Cersei sent him back to the kitchen ordering him to have the kitchen staff feed the dogs the leftover food rather than give it away to the poor like Marjorie had announced was going to happen.

I've been rewatching the series and it all seems clear now. The entire episode was oozing with foreshadowing with numerous references to kings dying (with pigeons flapping their wings in the background) and pigeons and the kingslayer, or pigeons getting their heads chopped off when Joffrey slices the pie, etc.

Note that later on in Season 6 there's a theory regarding the "Frey Pies" that Arya served to Walder Frey (they were special "pigeon" pies - and the theory is Arya made them with the meat of Walder Frey's slain two sons).

I'm actually leaning towards it being Maester Pycell...there was absolutely no value to having any of the scenes involving him in the episode at all until you put this theory into play. And then it makes all the sense in the world considering Cersei's and Tyrion's threats towards him especially Cersei's in this episode.

The wine being poisoned was an all-to-obvious red herring.
 

clu

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Littlefinger and Ollena pretty well admit to having done it. Littlefinger gets the disgraced knight who's now the jester to give Sansa a necklace allegedly from his mother. At the wedding Olenna is talking to Sansa while toying with the necklace. We later learn one of the crystals is missing after that and the crystals have traces of the poison in it. While Joffrey is belittling Tyrion his glass is in front of Olenna. Next time he drinks out of it he dies. Littlefinger leaves the necklace on the jester's body to frame Sansa, whereupon they find the evidence.

Littlefinger admits to organizing the thing. In Marjorie's conversation with Olenna she clearly didn't know it was going to happen while Olenna did.

Edit to add: they were doves not pigeons that Joffrey cleaved in half. Also I wouldn't really call it merely a theory that the Frey boys were in Walder's pie. Arya made that point fairly clear. It was also an allusion to the Rat Cook and the price of violating the sanctity of guest right.
 
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rlock

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...and it was either Marjorie who hand fed Joffrey the pie that did it - where he immediately starts feeling the effects of the poison as soon as he takes the first bite from her....

Or...it might have been Grand Maester Pycell that did it when Cersei sent him back to the kitchen ordering him to have the kitchen staff feed the dogs the leftover food rather than give it away to the poor like Marjorie had announced was going to happen.

I've been rewatching the series and it all seems clear now. The entire episode was oozing with foreshadowing with numerous references to kings dying (with pigeons flapping their wings in the background) and pigeons and the kingslayer, or pigeons getting their heads chopped off when Joffrey slices the pie, etc.

Note that later on in Season 6 there's a theory regarding the "Frey Pies" that Arya served to Walder Frey (they were special "pigeon" pies - and the theory is Arya made them with the meat of Walder Frey's slain two sons).

I'm actually leaning towards it being Maester Pycell...there was absolutely no value to having any of the scenes involving him in the episode at all until you put this theory into play. And then it makes all the sense in the world considering Cersei's and Tyrion's threats towards him especially Cersei's in this episode.

The wine being poisoned was an all-to-obvious red herring.


LF and Olenna did it, with Dontos as the doomed accomplice; the purple necklace with "black amethysts from Asshai" contained a poison known as The Strangler. It is known. (At least known in the books.)
Actually, good thing Sansa was not one of those teen girls that like to suck on their jewelry when they're bored or nervous, as I've seen in RL. LOL.

As for the Frey Pies - I blame Lord Manderly in the North, since book > show. However, the show made nice use of it. Freyar Morghulis. ;)


It was also an allusion to the Rat Cook and the price of violating the sanctity of guest right.
Aye, it rightly was. An old tale they Freys forgot, but of course, the North remembers.
 

huggzy

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Littlefinger and Ollena pretty well admit to having done it. Littlefinger gets the disgraced knight who's now the jester to give Sansa a necklace allegedly from his mother. At the wedding Olenna is talking to Sansa while toying with the necklace. We later learn one of the crystals is missing after that and the crystals have traces of the poison in it. While Joffrey is belittling Tyrion his glass is in front of Olenna. Next time he drinks out of it he dies. Littlefinger leaves the necklace on the jester's body to frame Sansa, whereupon they find the evidence.

Littlefinger admits to organizing the thing. In Marjorie's conversation with Olenna she clearly didn't know it was going to happen while Olenna did.

Edit to add: they were doves not pigeons that Joffrey cleaved in half. Also I wouldn't really call it merely a theory that the Frey boys were in Walder's pie. Arya made that point fairly clear. It was also an allusion to the Rat Cook and the price of violating the sanctity of guest right.
Let's talk about this theory. Of course the masses of fans have gravitated towards this but when you look at it closely it is clear that these people look at the facts superficially and haven't really tried to think it through too deeply.

First of all - I do agree that Petyr Baelish is very much involved and said as much in his speech to Sansa boarding the boat. He obviously was involved in getting Sansa away from the wedding and the city, and coordinated the jester's actions. He planned the acts, made the phony necklace, instructed the jester to approach Sansa, get her trust and use the "priceless" necklace as a tool to get her trust (which was a fake made of glass demonstrated by Petyr smashing it with the butt of his knife), and Baelish had to know that the murder was going to happen. But Baelish never once suggested the necklace contained poison or was used in the murder of the King.

In addition Baelish alludes to the fact that he controlled the jester and manipulated him into doing this deed for him, but if you listen closely to his speech on the boat with Sansa in the cabin in the same breath he also alludes that he contols a "great many people". But we all know he does not and cannot control the Tyrells. There is no way that he manipulates them.

Who can he control and manipulate though? The deviants he has served, who have secrets that he sees through his peepholes while they keep the company of his women. People like Grand Maester Pycell who many episodes earlier, while with a courtesan, showed the depth of Grand Maester Pycell's charade of a persona to the world, when Roz left the room and then all of a sudden this old, feeble, coughing withering man jumped up, did some calisthenics, stretched himself up and demonstrated himself to be a far more healthy, spry man than what he demonstrates to the rest of the world - before getting back into the charade when he opens the door and leaves the room.

The necklace being involved in the poisoning is a red herring. There is no evidence - other than that of Grand Meister Pycell's shockingly false testimony throughout the falacious farce of a trial used for the framing of Tyrion - that the necklace had anything to do with poisoning Joffrey.

Everybody buying this theory suggests that the missing stone was plucked off by Olenna and used to poison Joffrey. But why?!?! If Olenna wanted to poison Joffrey why would you go through the whole massive and incredibly, almost impossibly orchestrated and choreagraphed charade with a player (Sansa) who wasn't at all a part of the conspiracy? So that the loose stone might fall off before Olenna could pluck it off? So Sansa could catch her plucking off the stone and unwittingly thwart the assassination of the King? So Olenna might not be able to perform the sleight of hand needed to acquire the poisoned stone and continued on with no one seeing her - in front of the King's guard standing behind Joffrey's and Marjorie's table - and somehow place the poison in Joffrey's cup in front of the world watching?

And do you think they used mind control to somehow puppeteer both Joffrey and Tyrion into their whole standoff so that things would play out exactly how they wanted it too, so that the poisoning occurred exactly when Tyrion held the wine cup?!?!?

Do you know how incredibly non-sensical that all sounds? If Olenna wanted to have Joffrey poisoned - and she was going to do it herself - why wouldn't she just acquire the poison before hand and bring it to the wedding in her pocket? Better yet answer this question...why would Olenna even poison the King herself?!?!? Wouldn't you think that these people in high power don't have their minions doing their dirty work for them? Never mind that Olenna never got close to King Joffrey or his wine during that entire episode.

The only people that got close to Joffrey in that entire episode were Tyrion and Marjorie. And the only time that either of those two even came close to performing an action that could even be remotely close to being considered invasive is when Marjorie fed Joffrey a bite of the pigeon pie or when Tyrion gave Joffrey the cup of wine - which had just moments earlier fallen and bounced around on the floor - there's no way that any poison crystal that was in the cup was still there after it fell.

And yes, it was pigeon pie, not dove pie. Pigeon pie is traditional for the Westeros elite as well as a favorite dish at weddings. Pigeon pie at the purple wedding is referred to many times in later episodes including at Tyrion's trial.

A pigeon pie that came from the kitchen. A kitchen that Cersei earlier banished Grand Meister Pycell too. A Grand Meister Pycell that possesses all the poisons that one could possibly imagine. A Grand Meister Pycell who had motive to frame Tyrion - with his lies in the trial, and who presented the necklace red-herring evidence, and who also had motive to bring pain and punishment Cersei.

We don't know that Joffrey died from "the Strangler" except because Grand Maester Pycell tells us this. What we DO know when you rewatch the scene where Joffrey dies is that Joffrey shows no ill effects from his wine drinking initially. But when Joffrey starts eating the pigeon pie he starts complaining that "this pigeon pie is dry...give me some wine"...and then he starts choking.

And then he's choking more...and then he tries to drink more wine to wash it down.

But why would the writers even have Joffrey bite the pie and then make him say the line "this pie is dry"...just so that he can have a drink of wine?!?! He's at a wedding. He's been drinking wine all day. And we would have expected him to drink wine as part of his meal. Or making a toast. Or just to enjoy himself. The line was unneeded and unnecessary...unless it was a very big hint.

He was choking after he had some pie and before he drank that last cup of wine which Tyrion gave to Joffrey. From a bottle and a cup that neither Olenna - nor anyone else had access too other than Marjorie or the servers - because it was on the King's own separate table.

I like the Grand Maester Pycell theory far more.


And why? Because we always learn the truth at a trial. And at Tyrion's trial the writers all but told us this is exactly what happened...



Tywin: "Did you kill King Joffrey?"
Tyrion: "No."
Tywin: "Did your wife lady Sansa?"
Tyrion: "Not that I know of"
Tywin: "So how would you say he died then?"
Tyrion: jokingly..."He choked on his pigeon pie"
Tywin: angrily... "So do you blame the bakers ..."
Tyrion: ..."or the pigeons...just leave me out of it"

The writers outright gift wrapped it for us. But no one is paying attention.

And then when you watch Grand Maester Pycell's testimony everything he says is a lie because he blames everything on Tyrion - which we all know Tyrion had nothing to do with.

So how does Grand Maester Pycell link up to Petyr Baelish? Because Petyr knows everything about the deviant including all the stories and tales that Pycell tells his women like Roz when they think they are in the safety of secrecy.
 

clu

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Season 5 episode 7, Olenna and Baelish talking in private: "the two of us killed a king." Case closed.

Edit to add: he shows no ill effects because the wine isn't poisoned until it sits in front of Olenna. Yes the pie is dry but he shows no ill effects of that either until he drinks the wine again.

You think Pycell would've served Baelish in this capacity and (a) it not come up and/or (b) he wouldn't try to silence him per the whole "dead men tell no tales" philosophy he espoused to Sansa?

It came up in conversation between Olenna and Baelish because it was those two not Baelish and Pycell that did it. It was elaborately coreographed to frame Sansa. She literally displayed the murder weapon for all to see and Pycell was merely a dupe that fell for the charade.
 

huggzy

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LF and Olenna did it, with Dontos as the doomed accomplice; the purple necklace with "black amethysts from Asshai" contained a poison known as The Strangler. It is known. (At least known in the books.)
Actually, good thing Sansa was not one of those teen girls that like to suck on their jewelry when they're bored or nervous, as I've seen in RL. LOL.

As for the Frey Pies - I blame Lord Manderly in the North, since book > show. However, the show made nice use of it. Freyar Morghulis. ;)




Aye, it rightly was. An old tale they Freys forgot, but of course, the North remembers.
I can only comment on the television series...I did not read the books. However as we know the writers of the tv program do deviate from the books too.

And as far as "the Strangler"...the only way any of us "know" this is because Pycell tells us this...and we all fall for it hook, line and sinker.
 

huggzy

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Season 5 episode 7, Olenna and Baelish talking in private: "the two of us killed a king." Case closed.
Except that we also know this...Baelish lies to get what he wants, and uses his words to manipulate Sansa.

You didn't read my theory - I think Baelish is involved. But it was the pie, not the wine.
 

clu

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Except that we also know this...Baelish lies to get what he wants, and uses his words to manipulate Sansa.

You didn't read my theory - I think Baelish is involved. But it was the pie, not the wine.
I did read your theory. Read my edit to my reply.

He also wasn't choking before drinking the wine. I just rewatched to confirm. The dry pie is the red herring. A dramatic device to make his choking a little more confusing when it starts.

They explained what really happened to Jon Aeryn in time and they explained what happened here. You're free not to accept it and I agree it's convoluted, but I do believe it's no deeper than they present it to be.
 

clu

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See... on one hand we have the killers' candid confession in private, and one of said killers explaining to the one he framed how he framed her. On the other hand, we have a bunch of allusions to pigeon pie. :)

I'd speculate your chief motivation for liking the Pycell argument is that what they actually did was fall into that old writing cliché of needing the planets to align just right for the villain's supposedly fiendishly clever plan to work. Wouldn't be the first time though.

BTW there's nothing to be gained in Pycell making up a poison called The Strangler. Even if you were right why not just name the actual poison used? Also, it's worth pointing out that the right pie would still have to be delivered to Joffrey. Margeary didn't do it: she was confused and distraught about her future. Olenna on the other hand alludes to the fact that it was her doing (and, of course later confirms it). So how did Olenna poison the pie? And why the pie when his wine was right next to her?

p.s. I know you said Pycell poisoned the pie, but Olenna is the one who actually admits to conspiring with Baelish in front of Baelish and says if she goes down, he goes down with her. So she had to be involved somehow. Anyway watch the scene again: when Tyrion picks up the goblet it's right in front of Olenna where it's been while everyone's attention was elsewhere, and she's staring at it with a very strained look on her face. That's when she poisoned it and why it didn't affect Joffrey before.
 
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rlock

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I can only comment on the television series...I did not read the books. However as we know the writers of the tv program do deviate from the books too.

And as far as "the Strangler"...the only way any of us "know" this is because Pycell tells us this...and we all fall for it hook, line and sinker.
They do. What the show writers did in regard to that scene was simplify it, and everything around it.

(Without trying to spoil too much...) In the books, Baelish is way more subtle, and Dontos way more involved, for far longer.

As well, there is no Cersei betrothal to Loras Tyrell. Loras by that point became part of Joffrey's Kingsguard. (And Jaime did not return to King's Landing until after the Purple Wedding.)
Lots of changes re: House Tyrell in the show. In the books, the Tyrells plot to marry Sansa off the Willas Tyrell - Lord Tyrell's has two sons who do not appear in the show at all. And Margaery is younger than Loras, so the family dynamic is quite different as well as their future prospects.
In any case, let's just say that the plot to snuff out Joffrey likely began right after the deal Littlefinger brokered the Tyrell/Lannister alliance/marriage. The Tyrells had heard terrible things about Joffrey's treatment of Sansa (most likely from LF himself); they later confirmed it in Olenna's private chat with Sansa. That chat was quite close to the way the books went. LF had ulterior motives for it, which the Tyrells probably were not aware of. The Sansa plotline after she's smuggled to the Vale is very different in the show.

One thing the show always does is edit the plot to make is much more simplified, with fewer characters, and also to externalize things which are internal of off-screen. Sansa's plotline is often about her internal thoughts and dilemnas, so they turn it into open actions. The Tyrells actions are always viewed or spoken of through one of the other POV characters; same goes for Littlefinger. There is no moments of exposition where they explain or do things on their own - that is a show invention.
 

huggzy

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See... on one hand we have the killers' candid confession in private, and one of said killers explaining to the one he framed how he framed her. On the other hand, we have a bunch of allusions to pigeon pie. :)

I'd speculate your chief motivation for liking the Pycell argument is that what they actually did was fall into that old writing cliché of needing the planets to align just right for the villain's supposedly fiendishly clever plan to work. Wouldn't be the first time though.

BTW there's nothing to be gained in Pycell making up a poison called The Strangler. Even if you were right why not just name the actual poison used? Also, it's worth pointing out that the right pie would still have to be delivered to Joffrey. Margeary didn't do it: she was confused and distraught about her future. Olenna on the other hand alludes to the fact that it was her doing (and, of course later confirms it). So how did Olenna poison the pie? And why the pie when his wine was right next to her?

p.s. I know you said Pycell poisoned the pie, but Olenna is the one who actually admits to conspiring with Baelish in front of Baelish and says if she goes down, he goes down with her. So she had to be involved somehow. Anyway watch the scene again: when Tyrion picks up the goblet it's right in front of Olenna where it's been while everyone's attention was elsewhere, and she's staring at it with a very strained look on her face. That's when she poisoned it and why it didn't affect Joffrey before.
Haha...yes, I didn't get all the way to Season 5 Episode 7 in my re-watching of the series yet. I see (and am reminded) that Olenna mentions they "both" conspired.

That said - I still have a real problem with the whole wine being the smoking gun theory.

You mentioned that Joffrey's wine goblet was placed in front of Olenna. However if you watch the scene again it wasn't...Joffrey hands his goblet to Marjorie who puts it down on the corner of the King's table, not Olenna's. However there is a camera angle shot that makes it look somewhat like the cup was in front of Olenna but if you look at that shot again critically you will admit that its just a trick of the eye. Its clear that its not at the same table as Olenna.

If Olenna were to put the poison into the cup she would have had to get out of her chair, walk around her table, across to the King's table, put the poison into the cup, and then get all the way back to her table - all while everyone in the party have their eyes up front looking in that direction towards Joffrey and all in front of the King's guards standing behind Joffrey's table at each side. She couldn't have put the poison in the cup at that time - the wine would have had to have been poisoned before that.

So where did the poison in Joffrey's cup come from if it was the wine? Previously Joffrey had been drinking wine from his cup - presumably poured from the bottle from his table. There were no ill effects then plus Marjorie would have been drinking wine from the same bottle.

Then Joffrey goes on to empty a cup on Tyrion's head and then tosses the empty cup on the floor. The cup is picked up by Sansa who hands it to Tyrion, and then Tyrion pours wine from a bottle that was on Cersei and Tywin's table into Joffrey's cup - that wine isn't even from Joffrey's table. That is the last wine poured into Joffrey's cup...there's no way that anyone would attempt to kill the king by putting poison into their bottle instead of Joffrey's.

There is way too much to go wrong with the whole alleged necklace/pluck/poison Joffrey plan. Sansa didn't even wear the necklace to the morning breakfast - who was to know for sure she would wear some stranger's necklace to the wedding? To hope all of that would go the way it is alleged is no way to plan the assassination of a King.

On the other hand - we do see Marjorie hand feeding the King the pigeon pie. The servers come up and bring the pie to the table and hands that pie straight to Marjorie. And the feeding of the pie was the first of the series of events that occurred immediately and concurrently to Joffrey's death - and like I said there is a lot said about the pigeon pie at the trial.

Again, I do not understand why if Olenna were to orchestrate Joffrey's death why would they bother with the whole necklace BS. Just have someone put the poison in the wine or in the pie when they're out of sight.
 

clu

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I share your annoyance at the chances they took, like assuming Sansa would wear the necklace. And while Olenna was pretty slick in the scene where she takes the crystal from Sansa I had to wonder how she pulled off dropping it in the goblet without risking someone seeing it.

In reading about it, I was amused to find out GRRM said that the plan actually didn't go as the killers hoped. They had apparently hoped that it would be written off as an accident and the king had legitimately choked. They hadn't counted on Cersei immediately screaming "murder!"

As rlock says, there are a few scenes that set this plan up much earlier: in Renly's camp, Baelish asks Margaery if she wants to be a queen, which is what leads him to broker the wedding with the Tyrells. Then later Olenna asks Sansa what kind of boy Joffrey is. When Sansa says "he's a monster" Olenna replies that it's "a pity" which is believed to be the point she commits to the plan.
 

huggzy

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See... on one hand we have the killers' candid confession in private, and one of said killers explaining to the one he framed how he framed her. On the other hand, we have a bunch of allusions to pigeon pie. :)

I'd speculate your chief motivation for liking the Pycell argument is that what they actually did was fall into that old writing cliché of needing the planets to align just right for the villain's supposedly fiendishly clever plan to work. Wouldn't be the first time though.

BTW there's nothing to be gained in Pycell making up a poison called The Strangler. Even if you were right why not just name the actual poison used? Also, it's worth pointing out that the right pie would still have to be delivered to Joffrey. Margeary didn't do it: she was confused and distraught about her future. Olenna on the other hand alludes to the fact that it was her doing (and, of course later confirms it). So how did Olenna poison the pie? And why the pie when his wine was right next to her?

p.s. I know you said Pycell poisoned the pie, but Olenna is the one who actually admits to conspiring with Baelish in front of Baelish and says if she goes down, he goes down with her. So she had to be involved somehow. Anyway watch the scene again: when Tyrion picks up the goblet it's right in front of Olenna where it's been while everyone's attention was elsewhere, and she's staring at it with a very strained look on her face. That's when she poisoned it and why it didn't affect Joffrey before.
One other note - I'm pretty certain neither Petyr nor Olenna go into details to explain how it was done. Petyr crushes the stones in the necklace in front of Sansa but he never says that the necklace was poison. As I mentioned earlier it could easily just have been glass too - and the necklace was his prop as part of his ploy to have the jester gain Sansa's trust, rather than implying it was vehicle carrying the murder substance. I think people just read that into it.

And no one ever explicitly suggests they planned to frame Sansa and/or Tyrion either. However, circumstances arose where Petyr could present the chain of events that occurred to Sansa and explain them to her in a way where people could perceive that she was involved - but mainly because she had motive and because she fled the scene (which he arranged).

As far as plot lines and cliches I totally get your line regarding the planets aligning...but why include the whole Cersei/Pycelle confrontation at all where she banishes him to the kitchen then? I still think that a master of poisons being involved and killing Joffrey through the food is far more plausible than the incredibly convulated, nearly impossible poison his wine plan. If the Tyrells were involved they were the ones that catered and paid for half of the wedding. All you need to do is have a server bring a piece of poisoned pie to Marjorie where she hand feeds it to Joffrey.

You asked about what Pycelle would gain by calling the poison "the Strangler"? I'm not suggesting Pycelle fabricated the type of poison that may or may not have killed Joffrey. What I was alluding to is, if you listen to Pycelle in his entire testimony during Tyrion's trial he fabricated his entire story because he wanted to frame Tyrion who had Pycell locked up earlier, and to redirect blame from him. Pycelle has motive to kill Joffrey and frame it on Tyrion for numerous reasons - because Joffrey was evil and unpredictable, because the Lannisters were phasing Pycelle out of his role for the other "fraud" Qyburn, because Cerseil continually threatened to kill Pycelle, and because Tyrion had him locked up.

He claimed Tyrion stole all his poisons when he was locked up which was a lie. He blamed everything on Tyrion which was a lie. He somehow managed to regather the "murder weapon" necklace which must have been found on the jester's body floating in the middle of the ocean where someone implausibly put 2 + 2 together and figured out the necklace had something to do with the murder?!?!? (if you find a necklace would you first assume that it contains poison...and then start testing it?!?!). And who did the actual testing??? Pycelle. For all we know there may not have been any poison on the necklace. Without any of Pycelle's "evidence" which was all pretty much a fraud there is simply no case against Tyrion.

And the liar is the guy that was sent to the kitchen during the wedding by Cersei.
 
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clu

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As far as plot lines and cliches I totally get your line regarding the planets aligning...but why include the whole Cersei/Pycell confrontation at all where she banishes him to the kitchen then? I still think that a master of poisons being involved and killing Joffrey through the food is far more plausible than the incredibly convulated, nearly impossible poison his wine plan.
Your version would make it a crime of impulse, since no one could have anticipated Cersei would send Pycelle to the kitchen. Plus, how would Olenna factor in at all in that version? I'd also wager Baelish would've brushed off Olenna's threat if it was Pycelle who had the means and motive.

Anyway in either version Pycelle could've colluded (supplying the poison willingly even if he didn't do the deed). Bottom line is Baelish was pulling the strings and Pycelle either accused Sansa because he was duped or he did it on Baelish's instruction.

In one version Olenna is his remaining conspirator. In the other it's Pycelle. In one version the plan is a fluke that shouldn't have been assumed to work. In another, characters (e.g. Olenna) say things that don't make sense.

Perhaps we can agree the writing could've used a little more work either way? :)
 
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