Israeli/Gaza: am I missing something here?
- Thread starter BJhunter
- Start date
Recent Report
From another list, "Goldstone is a Jewish South African judge who has an impressive human rights background. The allegations by Israel and the US that his report is biased are preposterous. This article explains why their reaction is so vehement."
It sounds like a long report. The US legislators have just voted to ignore and bury it. It sounds like the most current and comprehensive report.
My impression is that both sides including the US are committing crimes while the rest of the world sits back and lets it happen.
I expect it has been said already but the katusha rockets kill very few people. The traffic in Israel is probably far more dangerous. The number of palestinians killed would far exceed the number of traffic and katusha deaths combined.
From another list, "Goldstone is a Jewish South African judge who has an impressive human rights background. The allegations by Israel and the US that his report is biased are preposterous. This article explains why their reaction is so vehement."
It sounds like a long report. The US legislators have just voted to ignore and bury it. It sounds like the most current and comprehensive report.
My impression is that both sides including the US are committing crimes while the rest of the world sits back and lets it happen.
I expect it has been said already but the katusha rockets kill very few people. The traffic in Israel is probably far more dangerous. The number of palestinians killed would far exceed the number of traffic and katusha deaths combined.
You raise some very good points, PeaceGuy.
The issue of demographics will only become more pronounced as time goes on and Israel increases its presence and dominance of the West Bank. There will come a time when the world can not deny that Israel is exacting all the benefits of the West Bank without any of the responsibilities for its population (at least the ones they don't kill or force to flee). When that time comes Israel, like South Africa, will be forced by world opinion to undertake their own Truth and Reconciliation.
I don't believe that this is a religious dispute -- Jews and Muslims have lived in peace together for centuries. This is a political dispute encompassing human rights and equal standing under the law. As in S.A., when both sides are willing to find a solution that seeks to right past wrongs, there will be peace.
EPZ
The issue of demographics will only become more pronounced as time goes on and Israel increases its presence and dominance of the West Bank. There will come a time when the world can not deny that Israel is exacting all the benefits of the West Bank without any of the responsibilities for its population (at least the ones they don't kill or force to flee). When that time comes Israel, like South Africa, will be forced by world opinion to undertake their own Truth and Reconciliation.
I don't believe that this is a religious dispute -- Jews and Muslims have lived in peace together for centuries. This is a political dispute encompassing human rights and equal standing under the law. As in S.A., when both sides are willing to find a solution that seeks to right past wrongs, there will be peace.
EPZ
Some facts, research and opinions
Since the beginning of 2005 through 2008, according to the Shin Bet, 5,700 rockets and 4,000 mortars were fired at Israel from Gaza. In the year 2008, 2,000 rockets and 1,600 shells were fired. During the six months truce, ending in December 2008, 361 rockets and 303 mortar shells were fired from Gaza. Since the firing began in the year 2000, nineteen Israelis were killed by rockets and eighteen by mortar shells. This does not include the large number of Israelis injured but not killed, the huge amount of damage done to property and the massive amounts of PTSD caused by the constant threats of attacks, especially in southern cities such as Sderot.
With respect to demographics, the popular opinion is that Arab birthrates will cause a population imbalance between Jews and Arabs in favour of Arabs in the forthcoming years. This opinion may represent a serious fallacy. I would enjoin interested readers to go to ynetnews.com and search for the recent article authored by Yoram Ettinger entitled "President Clinton, you're wrong" dated 20 November 2009.
As to the Goldstone Report, the judge had already agreed to a written directive in which he was obliged to assess the damage and war crimes caused by Israel. Nothing was mentioned about Hamas. Later, said Goldstone, there was a verbal agreement to investigate possible war crimes instigated by Hamas. Goldstone's mandate would never have stood up in a Canadian courtroom or in our justice system. Furthermore, one of the other of the four judges, Christine Chinkin, a professor from Ireland, had already signed a petition protesting the illegality and lack of ethics of Israel's campaign against Gaza before being assigned to the committee. Again, had this been an official Canadian hearing as opposed to a UN sponsored one, it would have been disallowed from the beginning and Goldstone would probably have had to defend himself before the bar for taking part in, and leading, such an investigation. Israel, quite rightly in my opinion, declined to take part in such proceedings. There are many more flaws in this report but this is not the arena to detail them.
The actual words expressed by a Hamas official (on UTube), translated into English, were: "We Muslims appreciate death the way Israelis love life." Muslim radicals have perfected the "art" of suicide bombing and terrorism and have used children, pregnant women and disabled people to carry out their plans. Muslim terrorism is the greatest disruptive force and hazard in the globe today other than our pure environmental threats. Israel is like the proverbial "canary in the coal mine" on this issue. There is no reasoning with terrorist extremists. For the most part, "moderate" Muslims do not speak out either because they secretly agree with the goal of global Islamification or are too frightened to go public.
Anyone who has spent time, a lot of time, in Israel, will realize how absurd the statement is that Jews and Arabs "love" killing one another. This is a vast oversimplification of the problem in that corner of the mideast. Canada is a great, comfortable and secure country but, for the most part, people have no idea what things are like in the mideast. Israel spends over 60% of its budget on the military and on security measures. You cannot enter a mall nor large store in Israel without having to pass through a security check. Lines to get into bus and train stations are long; each package and carrying case must be individually investigated through an X-Ray censor. In every large city, one sees Israeli soldiers, both men and women, patrolling or just moving about on the way for a home visit or to return to their bases carring automatic weapons. Can you imagine what this would do to our Canadian budget were we required to take the same measures. It's bad enough, what we go through, at airports.
The term "Palestinians" is a fiction endorsed by the Arab world to keep a Jewish state from growing and surviving in its midsts. The real problem for Arabs is that any nation of non-Arabs are considered "occupiers" and do not, according to them, have a viable place in the mideast. In other words, Israel just doesn't belong and never will. Peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt came about after Israel beat them (several times) at war. To further this concern, all non-Muslims are considered "dhimmis"; this translates to "second-class citizens". The land of Israel, not including Gaza nor Samaria and Judea (Westbank), is less than 1% of all the landmass of the current mideastern Arab countries. The population of Israel is less than 3% of the total population of the current mideastern Arab countries. Of this population, Arab Muslims make up slightly less than 20%of the total Israeli population.
I hope the above will provide some factual research and a fresh perspective into this discussion.
Since the beginning of 2005 through 2008, according to the Shin Bet, 5,700 rockets and 4,000 mortars were fired at Israel from Gaza. In the year 2008, 2,000 rockets and 1,600 shells were fired. During the six months truce, ending in December 2008, 361 rockets and 303 mortar shells were fired from Gaza. Since the firing began in the year 2000, nineteen Israelis were killed by rockets and eighteen by mortar shells. This does not include the large number of Israelis injured but not killed, the huge amount of damage done to property and the massive amounts of PTSD caused by the constant threats of attacks, especially in southern cities such as Sderot.
With respect to demographics, the popular opinion is that Arab birthrates will cause a population imbalance between Jews and Arabs in favour of Arabs in the forthcoming years. This opinion may represent a serious fallacy. I would enjoin interested readers to go to ynetnews.com and search for the recent article authored by Yoram Ettinger entitled "President Clinton, you're wrong" dated 20 November 2009.
As to the Goldstone Report, the judge had already agreed to a written directive in which he was obliged to assess the damage and war crimes caused by Israel. Nothing was mentioned about Hamas. Later, said Goldstone, there was a verbal agreement to investigate possible war crimes instigated by Hamas. Goldstone's mandate would never have stood up in a Canadian courtroom or in our justice system. Furthermore, one of the other of the four judges, Christine Chinkin, a professor from Ireland, had already signed a petition protesting the illegality and lack of ethics of Israel's campaign against Gaza before being assigned to the committee. Again, had this been an official Canadian hearing as opposed to a UN sponsored one, it would have been disallowed from the beginning and Goldstone would probably have had to defend himself before the bar for taking part in, and leading, such an investigation. Israel, quite rightly in my opinion, declined to take part in such proceedings. There are many more flaws in this report but this is not the arena to detail them.
The actual words expressed by a Hamas official (on UTube), translated into English, were: "We Muslims appreciate death the way Israelis love life." Muslim radicals have perfected the "art" of suicide bombing and terrorism and have used children, pregnant women and disabled people to carry out their plans. Muslim terrorism is the greatest disruptive force and hazard in the globe today other than our pure environmental threats. Israel is like the proverbial "canary in the coal mine" on this issue. There is no reasoning with terrorist extremists. For the most part, "moderate" Muslims do not speak out either because they secretly agree with the goal of global Islamification or are too frightened to go public.
Anyone who has spent time, a lot of time, in Israel, will realize how absurd the statement is that Jews and Arabs "love" killing one another. This is a vast oversimplification of the problem in that corner of the mideast. Canada is a great, comfortable and secure country but, for the most part, people have no idea what things are like in the mideast. Israel spends over 60% of its budget on the military and on security measures. You cannot enter a mall nor large store in Israel without having to pass through a security check. Lines to get into bus and train stations are long; each package and carrying case must be individually investigated through an X-Ray censor. In every large city, one sees Israeli soldiers, both men and women, patrolling or just moving about on the way for a home visit or to return to their bases carring automatic weapons. Can you imagine what this would do to our Canadian budget were we required to take the same measures. It's bad enough, what we go through, at airports.
The term "Palestinians" is a fiction endorsed by the Arab world to keep a Jewish state from growing and surviving in its midsts. The real problem for Arabs is that any nation of non-Arabs are considered "occupiers" and do not, according to them, have a viable place in the mideast. In other words, Israel just doesn't belong and never will. Peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt came about after Israel beat them (several times) at war. To further this concern, all non-Muslims are considered "dhimmis"; this translates to "second-class citizens". The land of Israel, not including Gaza nor Samaria and Judea (Westbank), is less than 1% of all the landmass of the current mideastern Arab countries. The population of Israel is less than 3% of the total population of the current mideastern Arab countries. Of this population, Arab Muslims make up slightly less than 20%of the total Israeli population.
I hope the above will provide some factual research and a fresh perspective into this discussion.
First I would like to say that there is such a thing as intellegent debate on touchy subjects without anyone going off half cocked.
The plight of the Palastinians is indeed very sad. No one should have to live in such squalid conditions. I personally think that a safe secure border in a two state solution would be the best for everyone concerned. If it would mean a lasting peace, how could that be a poor solution. Now having said that, I will point out a few facts that may or may not be known. Sometimes history can get shoved aside when politics take over.
In 1948 the UN ratified a Jewish state Israel, and an Arab state, Palastine. The day Israel declared itself a nation, 7 Arab countries invaded Israel. Most figured it would be a short war and that would be the end of Israel, but in the end, Israel not only defended its borders, it did in fact increase its territory. 3 major wars later, all as the result of Arab aggression, and again with the same results, Israel's borders have increased again. Just in case anyone wants to know, Israel has returned far more land to Palastine than it has kept.
Israel has proposed peace in many times and has even had agreements in place only to be broken by the Palastinian leaders. When people speak of Israel returning to the pre 1967 borders, they are fooling themselves. They do not understand the leadership of the Palastinians, or for that matter most if not all of the Arab nations. Just read the Hamas charter, or Hezbollah's. They say themselves that they will never recognize the state of Israel. Never! Look at the President of Iran, Amadeedajean (spelling error) he himself said he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Tell me how you negotiate with people like that.
PeaceGuy made some very solid logical points pertaining to the demographics. That is very worrisome to Israel, and I am quite sure that they have all kinds of scenarios played out depending on the circumstances.
The refugee problem has been going on for 60 years, and while I might offend a lot of people, I honestly believe that the fault lies not with Israel, but with the Palastinians (mostly their leadership) and the rest of the Arab world. If they spent more time, energy and money on trying to build a self sustaining state instead of buying arms, or blowing themselves up in crowded civilian markets, then there might be a chance for them.
Teach the Palastinians how to earn a living, have a roof over their heads, food on the table, a bed to sleep in, then and only then will they have enough respect for themselves and try to build a country rather than trying to destroy another country. Too simplistic, maybe, but I haven't seen too much success from all the other efforts over the last 60 years.
People will think what they wish, but I just hope that they understand all the facts before they come to any diffinative decision on the subject.
The plight of the Palastinians is indeed very sad. No one should have to live in such squalid conditions. I personally think that a safe secure border in a two state solution would be the best for everyone concerned. If it would mean a lasting peace, how could that be a poor solution. Now having said that, I will point out a few facts that may or may not be known. Sometimes history can get shoved aside when politics take over.
In 1948 the UN ratified a Jewish state Israel, and an Arab state, Palastine. The day Israel declared itself a nation, 7 Arab countries invaded Israel. Most figured it would be a short war and that would be the end of Israel, but in the end, Israel not only defended its borders, it did in fact increase its territory. 3 major wars later, all as the result of Arab aggression, and again with the same results, Israel's borders have increased again. Just in case anyone wants to know, Israel has returned far more land to Palastine than it has kept.
Israel has proposed peace in many times and has even had agreements in place only to be broken by the Palastinian leaders. When people speak of Israel returning to the pre 1967 borders, they are fooling themselves. They do not understand the leadership of the Palastinians, or for that matter most if not all of the Arab nations. Just read the Hamas charter, or Hezbollah's. They say themselves that they will never recognize the state of Israel. Never! Look at the President of Iran, Amadeedajean (spelling error) he himself said he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Tell me how you negotiate with people like that.
PeaceGuy made some very solid logical points pertaining to the demographics. That is very worrisome to Israel, and I am quite sure that they have all kinds of scenarios played out depending on the circumstances.
The refugee problem has been going on for 60 years, and while I might offend a lot of people, I honestly believe that the fault lies not with Israel, but with the Palastinians (mostly their leadership) and the rest of the Arab world. If they spent more time, energy and money on trying to build a self sustaining state instead of buying arms, or blowing themselves up in crowded civilian markets, then there might be a chance for them.
Teach the Palastinians how to earn a living, have a roof over their heads, food on the table, a bed to sleep in, then and only then will they have enough respect for themselves and try to build a country rather than trying to destroy another country. Too simplistic, maybe, but I haven't seen too much success from all the other efforts over the last 60 years.
People will think what they wish, but I just hope that they understand all the facts before they come to any diffinative decision on the subject.
There has also been over 20 U.N. Security resolutions condemning Israel's policies against the Arab people of which the U.S. has blocked, or vetoed all of them. Many had to do with Israel aggression and atrocities. I am not saying that the Palestinian leadership isn't to blame for what's going on as well, but like I said before, there is lots of blame to go around.First I would like to say that there is such a thing as intellegent debate on touchy subjects without anyone going off half cocked.
The plight of the Palastinians is indeed very sad. No one should have to live in such squalid conditions. I personally think that a safe secure border in a two state solution would be the best for everyone concerned. If it would mean a lasting peace, how could that be a poor solution. Now having said that, I will point out a few facts that may or may not be known. Sometimes history can get shoved aside when politics take over.
In 1948 the UN ratified a Jewish state Israel, and an Arab state, Palastine. The day Israel declared itself a nation, 7 Arab countries invaded Israel. Most figured it would be a short war and that would be the end of Israel, but in the end, Israel not only defended its borders, it did in fact increase its territory. 3 major wars later, all as the result of Arab aggression, and again with the same results, Israel's borders have increased again. Just in case anyone wants to know, Israel has returned far more land to Palastine than it has kept.
Israel has proposed peace in many times and has even had agreements in place only to be broken by the Palastinian leaders. When people speak of Israel returning to the pre 1967 borders, they are fooling themselves. They do not understand the leadership of the Palastinians, or for that matter most if not all of the Arab nations. Just read the Hamas charter, or Hezbollah's. They say themselves that they will never recognize the state of Israel. Never! Look at the President of Iran, Amadeedajean (spelling error) he himself said he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Tell me how you negotiate with people like that.
PeaceGuy made some very solid logical points pertaining to the demographics. That is very worrisome to Israel, and I am quite sure that they have all kinds of scenarios played out depending on the circumstances.
The refugee problem has been going on for 60 years, and while I might offend a lot of people, I honestly believe that the fault lies not with Israel, but with the Palastinians (mostly their leadership) and the rest of the Arab world. If they spent more time, energy and money on trying to build a self sustaining state instead of buying arms, or blowing themselves up in crowded civilian markets, then there might be a chance for them.
Teach the Palastinians how to earn a living, have a roof over their heads, food on the table, a bed to sleep in, then and only then will they have enough respect for themselves and try to build a country rather than trying to destroy another country. Too simplistic, maybe, but I haven't seen too much success from all the other efforts over the last 60 years.
People will think what they wish, but I just hope that they understand all the facts before they come to any diffinative decision on the subject.
I do agree with your comment though about the need for a two-state solution.
