Israeli/Gaza: am I missing something here?

smackyo

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May 18, 2005
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your mom says hi.
Muslims consider Jesus as one of the greatest prophet, 2nd to Mohammed(sp?). A Man, but not a God (or son of God), hence one of the big issues with Christians.

Jews consider Jesus as a false prophet and that the real guy will come someday in the future. That messiah is who the Christians consider as the Anti-Christ.

When you boil it all down, it's basically just cosmetic differences each religion have with each other. I guess for us liberal/secular people, we just see 3 religions all believing in the same big guy above the clouds, but willing to kill each other because some people are wearing white hats and others wearing other ones:rolleyes:
thanks for the clarification. :) i was pretty sure it was something along those lines.
 

smackyo

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May 18, 2005
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your mom says hi.
Oversimplified, and, as I understand it, at the end of WWII, the Jews had no place to go, and didn't want to stay in Germany. Israel was created, based on long historical precedent. It was their land hundreds and hundreds of years before.
Neither were they welcome under Stalin in Russia.

So someone has to stick up for the refugees of intense persecution and the Holocaust, in their new home.
there were jews already in palestine living peacefully with muslims. why couldn't the jews just go there without having to make the area a dominating jewish identity?

the allies didn't realize what they were doing when they drew up new borders for the region both after WWI and WWII. look what they did with iraq. without someone ruling them with an iron fist (sadam) they are tearing each other apart.
 

memyselfandI

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May 19, 2004
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there were jews already in palestine living peacefully with muslims. why couldn't the jews just go there without having to make the area a dominating jewish identity?

the allies didn't realize what they were doing when they drew up new borders for the region both after WWI and WWII. look what they did with iraq. without someone ruling them with an iron fist (sadam) they are tearing each other apart.
I seem to recall that the local Palestinians didn't much like all these Jews showing up, so they started killing them, including women and children. So the Jews started killing back...
 

Thatotherguy

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Jan 31, 2008
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the allies didn't realize what they were doing when they drew up new borders for the region both after WWI and WWII. look what they did with iraq. without someone ruling them with an iron fist (sadam) they are tearing each other apart.
That's very true. If history has shown us anything, it's that any time you arbitrarily re-draw borders without any consideration for the people living in the area, you end up with long-term strife and suffering. Just for a couple of other examples off the top of my head, look at India and Pakistan, or East and West Germany after WWII.
 

island-guy

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I seem to recall that the local Palestinians didn't much like all these Jews showing up, so they started killing them, including women and children. So the Jews started killing back...
The jews weren't just 'showing up' they were coming in with guns and kicking the palestinians off their farms and saying "I own this now" and building houses.

Read up on the 'jewish settlers'
 

Yman

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there were jews already in palestine living peacefully with muslims. why couldn't the jews just go there without having to make the area a dominating jewish identity?

The Jews lived peacefully in Germany for a long time too. After WW2 they finally said ' enough ' ! They wanted their own country where they wouldn't be sublimated, enslaved and discriminated against.
 

BJhunter

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Aug 27, 2006
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The Jews lived peacefully in Germany for a long time too. After WW2 they finally said ' enough ' ! They wanted their own country where they wouldn't be sublimated, enslaved and discriminated against.
And who could blame them? 6 million exterminated, of course it's natual they get their own country. People have to remember that in the aftermath of WWII, everyone felt terrible about the Holocaust; say all you want about the Palestine's poor plight as well, but they sure weren't rounded up and slaughtered to death.

to that other smart-aleck who said the West or Allies just randomly draw borders at their command; well, that's what the victors do all the time, don't they? Everyone just wanted to move on and give the Jews some space. They sure weren't going to hold a referendum, lol.
 

Nebson

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Dec 15, 2006
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To stop this nonsense that is going on right now i see a simple solution.
Hamas has to stop firing rockets into Israel.
That's how they got started and thats how it will stop.
Israel has the right just like any other country to protect its citizens.
 

Thatotherguy

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Jan 31, 2008
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To stop this nonsense that is going on right now i see a simple solution.
Hamas has to stop firing rockets into Israel.
That's how they got started and thats how it will stop.
Israel has the right just like any other country to protect its citizens.
Did you even read the rest of this thread? That's not how it got started. The roots go far, far deeper than that.
 

island-guy

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The Jews lived peacefully in Germany for a long time too. After WW2 they finally said ' enough ' ! They wanted their own country where they wouldn't be sublimated, enslaved and discriminated against.
Again, it started long before WW-II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

Read the history.

Basically between their own terrorist acts and guilt-tripping the UN they were able to force the issue following WW-II but it was nothing new and it wasn't something that they decided to do in response to their problems in Germany.

Saying that the creation of Isreal was due to the holocaust is like blaming the current economic crisis on Harper being elected PM.

The wheels were already in motion and MANY other factors were in play long before WW-II.
 

memyselfandI

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May 19, 2004
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The jews weren't just 'showing up' they were coming in with guns and kicking the palestinians off their farms and saying "I own this now" and building houses.

Read up on the 'jewish settlers'
Were they? At the beginning? I seem to recall they settled in places where there were no Palestinians (and made land the Arabs couldn't work into prosperous farmland as well), or they bought land from wealthy absentee Arab/Palestinian landowners.
 

horngoat

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The Jews have been kicked out of every land they were in. The present conflict goes back to the muslims kicking them out with the armies of mohamad and the Otoman rulers they ended up in Europe and Russia. Hitler decided in the final sollution to elliminate them entirely. England and The USA felt so bad for them they divided Palistine to give them a piece which they were already fighting for through their own terrorist action.

They have vowed not to ever give this up again.

Gaza strip was created in the 67 war when they also captured Jerusalem the people living there were displaced and want their land back. To that end they have fought a terrorist war ever since. This is where the suicide bombers came from and in order to stop this Israel closed the border. The PLO lost the right to rule Gaza whem Hammas took power. Their aim is to illiminate Israel at all costs . These costs include not spending any resources on hospitals and schools or roads or factories only arms to kill Jews.

They developed a homegrown rocket knowledge and started shooting them into Israel. This apparently is the present issue and Israel is now in Gaza to hunt and kill Hammas. Then to win hearts and minds (good-luck) and possible put a government into Gaza that might work for the people more and be less murderous towards Israel and their own people.

The ironic part is that they are the same people from the same gene-pool who's religeons (Islam,judaism and subsequently Christianity) were started by the same guy believing in the same God. It's like cousin killing cousin.
 

sevenofnine

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Nov 21, 2008
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there is enough blame for everyone,
everyone has blood on there hands,


right now, in gaza,
i think hamas has to be kicked out,
there not even the legitimate government,
they took power,
and they kill any one who stands againest them
jew or arab,
 

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Clients Abort
Nov 18, 2003
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I don't think there is anything in the world that can actually save us from ourselves and our greedy nature.
Perhaps a catastrophic world changing event ... Famine? Plague? Locusts? Alien Invasion?


Wouldn't it be nice if we could learn to live together without having to wait for something terrible to happen before we open our eyes and see that we are all brothers here?
So very true. Nothing significant in this world will change. Politics and money are always the obstacles to any problem solving. It's too late for anyone to do anything against the status quo because the technology has evolved to a point where it's too easy to monitor, control, and silence any 'dissidents'; and once guns are taken away from the common citizens, it's absolutely game over.

Human civilizations are meant to end. Either we will do it ourselves, or Earth/Sun/asteroids will do it for us, or aliens planning to conquer the solar system.

Nothing lasts forever. Enjoy it while it lasts. That means I'll probably start visiting more SPs who are above my budget threshold :)
 

Yman

Lord Lickworthy
Jul 10, 2002
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There is so much misinformation, misunderstanding and misconception of what is actually going on... in the middle east, in the upper echelons of the financial world, in any government.

Power corrupts.

One at a time, people are generally good beings.
Put them together and put a few in charge and you've got greed, mob mentality, back stabbing, ladder climbing, more greed and more corruption.

xoxo
Nina

Most people here are discussing details about history in this region, the current situation and issues related to this specific conflict and then you throw in some sweeping generalzations about misinformation, power corruption and the upper echelons of the financial world. Care to connect the dots ?
 

BJhunter

Well-known member
Aug 27, 2006
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Israel has almost no industry to speak of, except tourism. Where does Israel get all its money to have the 5th most sophisticated army in the world? Well, for starters, read this: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3415479,00.html ... or this quote from the link:
"An American team will land in Israel in July to finalize the deal. Israel currently receives an annual $2.4 billion in military aid."

It's a pretty sweet setup. America gives military aid to Israel, in return, Israel develops new weapons and promises to buy American weapons and test them in the field of battle. The military aid is only half the picture. Then there are "loan guarantees": http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_434.shtml
The Bush administration announced Tuesday night that it will trim $289.5 million from a $9 billion package of loan guarantees for Israel,

What's a loan guarantee? Its a low interest loan that also gets refinanced on a regular basis, and is a guaranteed annual source of funding to the Jewish state.

Israel is America's most favored satellite state. No two other countries on earth share such a codependent relationship, with one being funded to do whatever it pleases while the other enjoys its extension of power through it.

Lastly, this business about America's isolationist policy you speak of is just propaganda garbage pushed out by American governments. It has always been intensely interested in world affairs, and has been a strategic player in positioning itself for becoming and maintaining its superpower status. Successive American governments tell its citizens and the world that it is "isolationist" so as to pretend it has no such interest, that's all.

Your arrogant remark to Nina is really undeserved, particularly when you speak from ignorance.
Oooohh, I love it when a fellow lappy pooner comes to the defence of an SP, shows your true colours, brown noser ;)

America's isolationist policy is propaganda? Hmm, I recall reading historians mentioning it so why don't you just try to refute it?

And seriously, who wouldn't assist an ally? It's kinda normal in foreign affairs. Britain with US. Even Canada and US. Taiwan and US.

Besides, it serves America's interest to keep the Middle East stable, if one can even call that, and keep Israel strong, thus, substantiating the loans to Israel. I'm sure they both share intel on their enemies such as Iran and Syria, and dude, it's better for all of us, trust me on this one, and I'm no CIA ;)

But hey, Israel's historically got $$$, don't throw a hissy fit over their lack of industries. Or ever hear of Wall Street, Hollywood? Lots of Jewish $$$, big fella :)
 

Whackjob

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Apr 8, 2008
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Gaza strip was created in the 67 war when they also captured Jerusalem the people living there were displaced and want their land back.

The "Gaza Strip" has existed for over three thousand years. Gaza City is recognized as one of the oldest in the world dating back to th 13th Century BC Link

In 1517 it was conquered by the Ottoman Empire (Muslim, but not Arab)which held it until 1917 when the British took it over. Link

The British held Gaza until 1948 when it's fate was determined by the UN Partition Plan, which created Gaza, Israel and Trans Jordan (now called Jordan). None of these 'countries' existed before 1948. The plan specifically called for the partition of the entire area into a Jewish State and a Palestinian one. The Palestinians got Jordan Link.

After Israel declared independence, Egypt invaded via the Gaza Strip, and as part of the terms of the 1949 armistice agreement Egypt retained control of the Gaza Strip until it lost the territory in the 1967 war. Link

Egypt never formally annexed Gaza during the time it was in control.

On Israel's eastern boundary, Jordan took over the West Bank under the same 1949 agreement, annexing it in 1950. In the 1967 War Jordan lost control over the West Bank and formally renounced any claim to the territory in 1988. Link

In 1994 Israel and the Palestinians signed the Oslo Accords a term of which was that Israel relinqished control of the territory to Egypt in phases, the last of which was in 2005 when Israel withdrew completely. Link

The jews weren't just 'showing up' they were coming in with guns and kicking the palestinians off their farms and saying "I own this now" and building houses.

Read up on the 'jewish settlers'
Jews lived in the area known as the Gaza Strip for two thousand years until 1929, when the Palestinian Riots, which were instigated by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, led to their ouster. Link

The Grand Mufti Was a well-known anti-semite and helped shape anti-Jewish policy in the region (and elsewhere) for many years. Link

Grand Mufti Amin al Husseini und Friend:


The purpose of this post is to point out that the situation is indeed complex and does not lend itself to easy answers. Some may question the over-reliance on Wikipedia, but I didn't want to spend the time looking for better references.

Carry on.
 

rimas

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Jan 3, 2007
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I can probably find mien herr Hitler sitting and laughing with many English and American dignataries as well. Fact is, any suppressed people will fight back. You poke a dog long enough and it will bite you. Then what? It's a bad dog?

The only happy ending to this is they wipe each other out totally and free up some very nice beach front property.
 
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