Fighting stereotypes, prejudice and bullshit statistics one alligator at a time is really hard work. It seems to me that we need to put more time and money into draining the swamp. Thats not something any individual can do. What's needed is PR that that presents a balanced and/or positive view of sex work and sex workers. Take a look at the the home page of Stepping Stone and click on the poster of the old lady, http://www.steppingstonens.ca/
Is it really this bad? (SP life)
- Thread starter Orifice
- Start date
To start off, nice titas! Pearl necklace, anyone?Came across this:
http://www.burnabynow.com/news/told+have+walk+away/4079350/story.html
Firstly,
Holy shit those tatas!
Secondly,
Is it really that bad for SP's? I thought, streetwalkers aside, most SP's (especially those with DT condos), kinda think of it as just a job for them, a way to make quick cash and pay for a certain level of lifestyle they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. This woman says 85% of them are addicts or are forced to by pimps?
Kinda makes me feel a bit guilty... erm...
So, the "high" life is not the way to go/politicly correct on this site, eh ;
I'm sure no one who posts here uses drugs of any kind...weed, coffee, alcohol, etc
"On the HIGHway to hell" {AC/DC}
In the spirit of helping interested parties easily locate the venue for Tamara's defence, I'd like to say that it's Blusson Hall. It's a new building complex at SFU that houses the recently created Faculty of Health Sciences.
Just a few points on the issues raised in the previous pages:
1) Prostitution defying comparison
If you look at the very details of doing the work that defines a particular job, yes there will be no easy comparison for prostitution and for most other occupations for that matter. There is no other in job in the world that enables one to get paid well for exposing themselves to stench and decays as one drill holes to another person's mouth. There is no other job in the world that will allow you to carry guns and shoot people your government defines as "enemies." There is no other job in the world where a person gets paid to examine women's vagina in order to find out what's wrong with their reproductive health. If you look at the specifics, all jobs are unique and will defy comparison.
It is, in my opinion, appropriate to draw comparison with other occupation just because some people condemn or villify prostitution on the grounds that it endangers the physical, psychological and spiritual well-being of the person doing it. To say that those kinds of endangerment are also present in other occupation (e.g. nursing, law, business) is a valid way of refuting blanket statements against prostitution.
2) Sex not meant to be sold
Anything that any person is willing to pay for can be sold. Whether it should it be sold or exchanged for other goods/services or not depends on the religious beliefs people strongly subscrbe to. The Judeo-Christian tradition have specific views and colourful terms about sexual practices and explicitly condemns the selling of sex. The other religions such as Buddhism have different and perhaps permissive views about sexuality. One can even make a case for the argument that the marked differences in the prevalence and views about sexuality and prostitution in some Asian non-Christian countries (Thailand, Japan) and North American/European Christian countries have something to do with religion rather than the harm those practices actually result in. Sadly, although our constitution has fully established that the church must be separate from the state, disentangling religion's hold on the way we govern ourselves has yet to be fully realized. It's been done with women's rights and is gradually happening with gay rights.
3) some SPs not being scatherd
I find this hard to believe at first. But the more I think about, I think my difficulty in accepting this has something to do with what I've read or heard about prostitution. I've always thought that only a fucked up person will do this kind of job voluntarily or people must have been forced to do it. After reading about sp's experience here which contradict my previously-held notions, I was compelled to revise my thinking. Having read many of the threads here at Perb, I discovered that there are actually sps who choose to do it just because they like it. And these are sps who do not seem to have little choices in life (i.e. an SP with a master's degree or university degree, an sp who can talk to you about statistical sources of error in measurement, you name it).
I still am against human trafficking and child sex and I know that these things are happening all the time and should be addressed specifically and strictly by policy and enforcement. I also recognize my own responsibility in this enterprise which is why when I purchase sex I try to make sure (to the extent it's possible) that I do not buy it from people who I believe are being exploited (sorry if that sounded like I am judging others who encourage exploitation).
Are sps lying to me when they say they enjoy what they do, that they are not being harmed in some major way, and that they derive some sort of fulfillment in doing it? I can not know for sure, but I really DO NOT believe they are lying, at least not all the time and not for a very long time. I am willing to believe those who say they are being harmed by the profession as much as I am willing to believe those who say they are finding fullfilment doing it. Having said that, there are still aspects of this industry that I can not completely understand yet, but that is for another thread.
1) Prostitution defying comparison
If you look at the very details of doing the work that defines a particular job, yes there will be no easy comparison for prostitution and for most other occupations for that matter. There is no other in job in the world that enables one to get paid well for exposing themselves to stench and decays as one drill holes to another person's mouth. There is no other job in the world that will allow you to carry guns and shoot people your government defines as "enemies." There is no other job in the world where a person gets paid to examine women's vagina in order to find out what's wrong with their reproductive health. If you look at the specifics, all jobs are unique and will defy comparison.
It is, in my opinion, appropriate to draw comparison with other occupation just because some people condemn or villify prostitution on the grounds that it endangers the physical, psychological and spiritual well-being of the person doing it. To say that those kinds of endangerment are also present in other occupation (e.g. nursing, law, business) is a valid way of refuting blanket statements against prostitution.
2) Sex not meant to be sold
Anything that any person is willing to pay for can be sold. Whether it should it be sold or exchanged for other goods/services or not depends on the religious beliefs people strongly subscrbe to. The Judeo-Christian tradition have specific views and colourful terms about sexual practices and explicitly condemns the selling of sex. The other religions such as Buddhism have different and perhaps permissive views about sexuality. One can even make a case for the argument that the marked differences in the prevalence and views about sexuality and prostitution in some Asian non-Christian countries (Thailand, Japan) and North American/European Christian countries have something to do with religion rather than the harm those practices actually result in. Sadly, although our constitution has fully established that the church must be separate from the state, disentangling religion's hold on the way we govern ourselves has yet to be fully realized. It's been done with women's rights and is gradually happening with gay rights.
3) some SPs not being scatherd
I find this hard to believe at first. But the more I think about, I think my difficulty in accepting this has something to do with what I've read or heard about prostitution. I've always thought that only a fucked up person will do this kind of job voluntarily or people must have been forced to do it. After reading about sp's experience here which contradict my previously-held notions, I was compelled to revise my thinking. Having read many of the threads here at Perb, I discovered that there are actually sps who choose to do it just because they like it. And these are sps who do not seem to have little choices in life (i.e. an SP with a master's degree or university degree, an sp who can talk to you about statistical sources of error in measurement, you name it).
I still am against human trafficking and child sex and I know that these things are happening all the time and should be addressed specifically and strictly by policy and enforcement. I also recognize my own responsibility in this enterprise which is why when I purchase sex I try to make sure (to the extent it's possible) that I do not buy it from people who I believe are being exploited (sorry if that sounded like I am judging others who encourage exploitation).
Are sps lying to me when they say they enjoy what they do, that they are not being harmed in some major way, and that they derive some sort of fulfillment in doing it? I can not know for sure, but I really DO NOT believe they are lying, at least not all the time and not for a very long time. I am willing to believe those who say they are being harmed by the profession as much as I am willing to believe those who say they are finding fullfilment doing it. Having said that, there are still aspects of this industry that I can not completely understand yet, but that is for another thread.
good points. i have one question though, how do you know the above point?
i partake as well, but i'm not at all certain of the above because i have never encountered it, in this industry that is...
Eva, I suspect your last paragraph is key. Having a goal you are working towards, a likely endpoint in mind, and employment/classes outside the industry helps you stay grounded in the "real world" and gives you a way to take a break from everything. It also allows you to focus mentally on your future in a way that is very different if you don't have those other pursuits. Working in the industry then becomes fun and interesting for you, a very useful diversion from your "real world" life, instead of an end in itself with no prospect of change. It's a matter of mindset: Anyone can in theory walk away anytime, but if you have options (which you have) then walking away is much easier to contemplate. Having that understanding allows you to approach the industry with a very different mindset from the woman who feels she has no other viable options. Or at least that is MHO.
It's been mentioned time and time again - whether or not an SP is left scathed can really depend on how she's choosing to run her business.
Working high volume and seeing just any Joe Blow who contacts her for session can increase an SP's chance of burn out and meeting unpleasant or dangerous clients.
As an SP, I personally feel it's important to get a sense of who you're seeing before they come to see you. This to me usually means a friendly chat over the phone or exchanging several emails. Should there be any sort of uncertainty on my part, I ask for a provider reference.
I find getting to know them a bit before seeing them helps determine whether or not you'll click as well as weed out those who could potentially be trouble.
I haven't had a bad experience yet and after year of doing this full time, I can say I enjoy it more now than ever as experience has allowed me to learn what works best for me.
I also find working towards a goal and having work and/or classes outside of the industry helps keep me in check. This profession can be isolating for me since I'm not out in the open with it so it's important for me to stay in touch with the "real world" in some way or another.
Well mathematically speaking I can tell you the stats she gives are a bunch of BS. Look at the data, there is a preponderance of the numbers that contain the digits 7 or 8 in them. When people make up numbers they find themselves repeating digits far too often. I this case it is pretty easy to see that the percentages are made up.
I know it's real because I've seen it happen in Liam Neeson's 2008 film
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But really, there are NGOs (such as the The Future Group) that monitor these activities.
that is the ultimate 'revenge' movie!
"...during my career, i have acquired a somewhat unique set of skills..." lol
i had a quick look at the future group website and so far i'm not impressed; however, i promise to read as much as i can (without puking), i admit i might learn something
i was asking the original poster (and anybody else for that matter) if they have actually encountered a bona fide case here in vancouver in the biz. not suspicians, not i read about it, not its common knowledge, but a bona fide case. i for one have not
just askin...
"...during my career, i have acquired a somewhat unique set of skills..." lol
i had a quick look at the future group website and so far i'm not impressed; however, i promise to read as much as i can (without puking), i admit i might learn something
i was asking the original poster (and anybody else for that matter) if they have actually encountered a bona fide case here in vancouver in the biz. not suspicians, not i read about it, not its common knowledge, but a bona fide case. i for one have not
just askin...
I should have warned you about FG's other objectives ... sorry.
My limited experience has been with indies so I don't have first hand knowledge and would probably have a very small chance of encountering an actual case.
If anybody knows how destructive the world of prostitution is, then Burnaby resident Tania Fiolleau would know.
I'm definitely not saying her experience isn't valid, just heavily exaggerated and made up in parts. I'm going to go through this piece by piece and share my experience/what I know, and what I have seen first hand
Fiolleau was also in an abusive marriage. Having left that situation and living in a battered women's shelter, she discovered she didn't qualify for legal aid in the custody battle with the father of their two sons.
I think an abusive relationship, having too spend tons of money on a custody battle, and having your dreams shattered will definitely leave scars and make you bitter. Who's to say her ptsd, didn't come from that. Why blame sex work?
She saw an ad in the newspaper promising $1,500 a day in a fun, friendly and safe environment and applied, not knowing exactly what she was getting into.
"I was told it was erotic massage or a body slide" - she understood body slide to mean no more than rubbing her breasts on a client - but she found out differently the first time she had a client.
Every interview I've ever been to, they tell you exactly what is expected of you in the room. They're customers are more important than you. Why would they want to send a girl in there that may run out crying because she didn't know she might have to touch a penis? Also when she started it was all run on a tipping system. the owners wanted to make sure you didn't over charge by not knowing what to charge. Yes you may not quite know what to expect. I know I was quite nervous my first one. But I walked in, knowing that I had to give a hand release or more. Also her friend would have completely filled her in. That's what girls do.
Even as Fiolleau felt that what she was doing was wrong - "I would go home and scrub myself because I felt so dirty," she said - she couldn't turn down the big money that came with the job.
Possible. I have known a few girls that have felt this way, sometimes. I'm sure everybody on the planet has had a bad day at the office, lol Definitely not every time, though. Some guys are a lot of fun. My experience is most guys are genuinely just looking to have a good old fashioned romp. After you've been doing this long enough you get a very highly tuned radar to ween out the creeps.
"I was earning $1,700 per six-hour night shift," she said. "Once I learned how much I was making, I started working double shifts."
Why exaggerate? Most people would be impressed if you said $1000. Not everyone goes to parlors looking for sex. Places like Cleos, Platinum, Swedish touch, le mirage, mata hara's, all started at hand jobs and went up to full service. The average prices were 100 for a hand job, 200 for a blow job and 300 for sex. Some times you had to negotiate down to 80, 150, and 200. and then you tipped in all the places I mentioned the manager 20 [sometimes more]. So if every single guy came in and paid the most, it would equal out to 21 hand jobs in a day, 9 blow jobs or 6 full services. Sometimes you got a high roller that would just keep on giving you money, so you ended up with well over her 1700, but they were rare. 10 years ago, an average night was between 400 and 800. A great night was over a G. I don't work as hard as I did back then, so I honestly don't know what others are making on a regular basis today, which is why I said a few years ago.
Even as Fiolleau got advice from her co-workers, she didn't know how destructive the job was.
"I remember one girl telling me, when I asked her how she did it, she told me 'I'm a robot,' so that's what I did when I was with a client, I became a robot too," she said.
I know lots of girls that go through the motions and are robots. I've seen it first hand on outcalls, working for escort agencies. Come on, can you please at least pretend to smile, so we can stay longer? I've also witnessed lousy sales people in all forms of jobs, just going through the motions. Those girls often don't make as much money as the bubbly, happy girls. Same as any service job. Just the same as any job, some girls should be here, some shouldn't.
"I guess I thought that running a brothel was better than being an escort," she said. "I owned the business, I ran the business, and it was one big muddy puddle I was in."
Fiolleau also ran two top-secret penthouse brothels that catered to people wanting discreet encounters, which meant she was running four operations.
If you run the place ethically and responsibly for both the men and the women, I don't see the problem? The problem with most brothels in Vancouver is the ridiculous fines they have for girls and the outrageous fees, and the way they take the clients word over yours. These kind of things can make you feel powerless, and as a woman, who was raised by feminist hippies, I hate that feeling. The number one reason I went independent is because I don't want to be pimped. At the touch, this guy came in and picked me. I told the manager I didn't want to see him, she told me if I felt that way, I could pack my bags and go, that I wasn't allowed to pick and choose. I understand her point, but ick. I hated him in the first 10 seconds because he was overbearing, grabby, rude and he turned out to be really cheap. I think women who are starting out in this business need a friendly, safe environment to learn the ropes.
I worked at this one place, so long ago. the prices were all inclusive, so you didn't make as much per call, but she had no fines, and no hidden book on fees. You didn't have to tip anybody, or anything. She had the health nurses come in on a regular basis to explain about condoms, diseases, answer questions, etc. She invited vice to staff meetings to answer legal questions, and she had parties/staff meetings for the girls every few months. It wasn't a party for clients, just a party for the girls to show her appreciation. She also had contests. The girl that had the most calls that year got a trip for 2 to somewhere. The girl that turned over a new leaf and stopped getting complaints would get a 500 shopping certificate, etc. I didn't work there long, because I was used to more money at the time [only a month] then I went and danced in Niagara falls and had a blast. She used a rewards system and a camaraderie system to keep her girls in line, instead of a punishment and a fine system. Girls that were chronically irresponsible or bitchy were just given the least desirable shifts or fired. Her girls were the nicest and the most loyal of any I've seen.
The money was coming in fast and furious, which was sorely needed because her custody case dragged on for more than four years, and Fiolleau estimated it cost her more than $400,000.
At the end, Fiolleau promised the judge that if she won custody of her two boys, she would leave the business, and that's exactly what happened in 2002.
"I got custody, so I left the business," she said.
Good for you. I'm gald you are on the path to a happy and fulfilling life.
"I'd become Christian at this point, and God told me, you have to walk away from this ... and write a book and help save the women who are in prostitution," said Fiolleau.
Man, maybe you need a prescription for schizophrenia. Thats what most people need when they start hearing voices.
And that's what Fiolleau did, spending the next two years writing Souled Out!, which she finally completed in October 2010.
Good for you
In her book, Fiolleau tells of her experience in what she calls "a sick world, full of broken dreams and empty promises, battered, shattered, sexually abused women, men and children. ... (The sex industry) is causing alarming divorce rates, teen pregnancies, STDs-AIDS, drug usage, not to mention altered views of what sex really means."
Where do you get these statistics from? You're as crazy as most bible thumpers. just make up stuff to sell books?
Fiolleau said proceeds of the book don't go to her, but rather will go back into raising awareness and doing prevention for sexually exploited women and children and human traffic victims.
Really? That's good, but I doubt it You're going to try and make money to live, other wise you will be right back where you left
"Please do not judge these girls/men any longer that are in the sex industry. Know that most of them are being 'forced' to do it, physically or mentally, by manipulation of people around them.
I definitely know women that have had all the above happen to them, but weren't you also manipulated by your husband? It doesn't just happen in the sex trade and it not all sex trade workers.
"It could be your sister, your mother, your best friend's girl or even your daughter - and then think, is it all really worth the 'thrill' of self-gratification that lasts only a couple minutes? You are destroying lives of countless women while you do it - feeding the monster the sex industry has become. And now you are part of it too ... for there must be enablers to create victims.
blah blah blah. Why are you trying to take my power as a woman away from me? Please stop. I agree with staying away from kiddie stroll, but if someone is over 19 have at er.
"Be part of my campaign to help educate these women, clients and the public. If we can just save even one life, it was all worth it."
That's a lofty cause. I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavors. I just wish you didn't paint all sex workers with the same brush
I'm going to tackle her stupid stats in another post. This one is too stupid long as it is, lol
I'm definitely not saying her experience isn't valid, just heavily exaggerated and made up in parts. I'm going to go through this piece by piece and share my experience/what I know, and what I have seen first hand
Fiolleau was also in an abusive marriage. Having left that situation and living in a battered women's shelter, she discovered she didn't qualify for legal aid in the custody battle with the father of their two sons.
I think an abusive relationship, having too spend tons of money on a custody battle, and having your dreams shattered will definitely leave scars and make you bitter. Who's to say her ptsd, didn't come from that. Why blame sex work?
She saw an ad in the newspaper promising $1,500 a day in a fun, friendly and safe environment and applied, not knowing exactly what she was getting into.
"I was told it was erotic massage or a body slide" - she understood body slide to mean no more than rubbing her breasts on a client - but she found out differently the first time she had a client.
Every interview I've ever been to, they tell you exactly what is expected of you in the room. They're customers are more important than you. Why would they want to send a girl in there that may run out crying because she didn't know she might have to touch a penis? Also when she started it was all run on a tipping system. the owners wanted to make sure you didn't over charge by not knowing what to charge. Yes you may not quite know what to expect. I know I was quite nervous my first one. But I walked in, knowing that I had to give a hand release or more. Also her friend would have completely filled her in. That's what girls do.
Even as Fiolleau felt that what she was doing was wrong - "I would go home and scrub myself because I felt so dirty," she said - she couldn't turn down the big money that came with the job.
Possible. I have known a few girls that have felt this way, sometimes. I'm sure everybody on the planet has had a bad day at the office, lol Definitely not every time, though. Some guys are a lot of fun. My experience is most guys are genuinely just looking to have a good old fashioned romp. After you've been doing this long enough you get a very highly tuned radar to ween out the creeps.
"I was earning $1,700 per six-hour night shift," she said. "Once I learned how much I was making, I started working double shifts."
Why exaggerate? Most people would be impressed if you said $1000. Not everyone goes to parlors looking for sex. Places like Cleos, Platinum, Swedish touch, le mirage, mata hara's, all started at hand jobs and went up to full service. The average prices were 100 for a hand job, 200 for a blow job and 300 for sex. Some times you had to negotiate down to 80, 150, and 200. and then you tipped in all the places I mentioned the manager 20 [sometimes more]. So if every single guy came in and paid the most, it would equal out to 21 hand jobs in a day, 9 blow jobs or 6 full services. Sometimes you got a high roller that would just keep on giving you money, so you ended up with well over her 1700, but they were rare. 10 years ago, an average night was between 400 and 800. A great night was over a G. I don't work as hard as I did back then, so I honestly don't know what others are making on a regular basis today, which is why I said a few years ago.
Even as Fiolleau got advice from her co-workers, she didn't know how destructive the job was.
"I remember one girl telling me, when I asked her how she did it, she told me 'I'm a robot,' so that's what I did when I was with a client, I became a robot too," she said.
I know lots of girls that go through the motions and are robots. I've seen it first hand on outcalls, working for escort agencies. Come on, can you please at least pretend to smile, so we can stay longer? I've also witnessed lousy sales people in all forms of jobs, just going through the motions. Those girls often don't make as much money as the bubbly, happy girls. Same as any service job. Just the same as any job, some girls should be here, some shouldn't.
"I guess I thought that running a brothel was better than being an escort," she said. "I owned the business, I ran the business, and it was one big muddy puddle I was in."
Fiolleau also ran two top-secret penthouse brothels that catered to people wanting discreet encounters, which meant she was running four operations.
If you run the place ethically and responsibly for both the men and the women, I don't see the problem? The problem with most brothels in Vancouver is the ridiculous fines they have for girls and the outrageous fees, and the way they take the clients word over yours. These kind of things can make you feel powerless, and as a woman, who was raised by feminist hippies, I hate that feeling. The number one reason I went independent is because I don't want to be pimped. At the touch, this guy came in and picked me. I told the manager I didn't want to see him, she told me if I felt that way, I could pack my bags and go, that I wasn't allowed to pick and choose. I understand her point, but ick. I hated him in the first 10 seconds because he was overbearing, grabby, rude and he turned out to be really cheap. I think women who are starting out in this business need a friendly, safe environment to learn the ropes.
I worked at this one place, so long ago. the prices were all inclusive, so you didn't make as much per call, but she had no fines, and no hidden book on fees. You didn't have to tip anybody, or anything. She had the health nurses come in on a regular basis to explain about condoms, diseases, answer questions, etc. She invited vice to staff meetings to answer legal questions, and she had parties/staff meetings for the girls every few months. It wasn't a party for clients, just a party for the girls to show her appreciation. She also had contests. The girl that had the most calls that year got a trip for 2 to somewhere. The girl that turned over a new leaf and stopped getting complaints would get a 500 shopping certificate, etc. I didn't work there long, because I was used to more money at the time [only a month] then I went and danced in Niagara falls and had a blast. She used a rewards system and a camaraderie system to keep her girls in line, instead of a punishment and a fine system. Girls that were chronically irresponsible or bitchy were just given the least desirable shifts or fired. Her girls were the nicest and the most loyal of any I've seen.
The money was coming in fast and furious, which was sorely needed because her custody case dragged on for more than four years, and Fiolleau estimated it cost her more than $400,000.
At the end, Fiolleau promised the judge that if she won custody of her two boys, she would leave the business, and that's exactly what happened in 2002.
"I got custody, so I left the business," she said.
Good for you. I'm gald you are on the path to a happy and fulfilling life.
"I'd become Christian at this point, and God told me, you have to walk away from this ... and write a book and help save the women who are in prostitution," said Fiolleau.
Man, maybe you need a prescription for schizophrenia. Thats what most people need when they start hearing voices.
And that's what Fiolleau did, spending the next two years writing Souled Out!, which she finally completed in October 2010.
Good for you
In her book, Fiolleau tells of her experience in what she calls "a sick world, full of broken dreams and empty promises, battered, shattered, sexually abused women, men and children. ... (The sex industry) is causing alarming divorce rates, teen pregnancies, STDs-AIDS, drug usage, not to mention altered views of what sex really means."
Where do you get these statistics from? You're as crazy as most bible thumpers. just make up stuff to sell books?
Fiolleau said proceeds of the book don't go to her, but rather will go back into raising awareness and doing prevention for sexually exploited women and children and human traffic victims.
Really? That's good, but I doubt it You're going to try and make money to live, other wise you will be right back where you left
"Please do not judge these girls/men any longer that are in the sex industry. Know that most of them are being 'forced' to do it, physically or mentally, by manipulation of people around them.
I definitely know women that have had all the above happen to them, but weren't you also manipulated by your husband? It doesn't just happen in the sex trade and it not all sex trade workers.
"It could be your sister, your mother, your best friend's girl or even your daughter - and then think, is it all really worth the 'thrill' of self-gratification that lasts only a couple minutes? You are destroying lives of countless women while you do it - feeding the monster the sex industry has become. And now you are part of it too ... for there must be enablers to create victims.
blah blah blah. Why are you trying to take my power as a woman away from me? Please stop. I agree with staying away from kiddie stroll, but if someone is over 19 have at er.
"Be part of my campaign to help educate these women, clients and the public. If we can just save even one life, it was all worth it."
That's a lofty cause. I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavors. I just wish you didn't paint all sex workers with the same brush
I'm going to tackle her stupid stats in another post. This one is too stupid long as it is, lol
I agree with you that the only way to move prostitution into the mainstream is to improve it's public image.
Right now it is viewed as a taboo industry frequented by deviants, malfeasants & others who are involved in criminal activity.
Prostitution is seen as an immoral act by Christians & many other religions.
Personally I see it as a viable occupation ONLY if the provider has the proper attitude & reason for entering this type of business.
Perhaps the biggest hurdle for making prostitution legitimate is the drug use & blatant rip-offs, swindlers, bait & switch/misrepresentation, theft from clients & sometimes even extortion/blackmail perpetrated by the SP and/or her cohorts.
I have unfortunately frequented gals who were being pimped out in the past.
I never intended for that to happen & only found out of their situation afterward.
I attempted to get one gal free from her pimp & received a surprising phone call on my private home phone one night with the caller threatening to kill me if I interfered again.
I now will never see a gal unless I am convinced she is working as an SP of her own volition.
It is very sad that some think it is their right to force these women to work for them.
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Thanks Krustee. Well said. But I still don't understand why you find there are so many "ripoff" artists in the trade. In all my years of pooning I can say I've only been truly ripped off a couple of times. And I'm not counting such trivialities as a rushed session, or that the CBJ was not to my liking.I agree with you that the only way to move prostitution into the mainstream is to improve it's public image.
Right now it is viewed as a taboo industry frequented by deviants, malfeasants & others who are involved in criminal activity.
Prostitution is seen as an immoral act by Christians & many other religions.
Personally I see it as a viable occupation ONLY if the provider has the proper attitude & reason for entering this type of business.
Perhaps the biggest hurdle for making prostitution legitimate is the drug use & blatant rip-offs, swindlers, bait & switch/misrepresentation, theft from clients & sometimes even extortion/blackmail perpetrated by the SP and/or her cohorts.
I have unfortunately frequented gals who were being pimped out in the past.
I never intended for that to happen & only found out of their situation afterward.
I attempted to get one gals free from her pimp & received a surprising phone call on my private home phone one night with the caller threatening to kill me if I interfered again.
I now will never see a gal unless I am convinced she is working as an SP of her own volition.
It is very sad that some think it is their right to force these women to work for them.
Once a girl stole the money out of my wallet but that was when I first started pooning and I was careless about where I left it. The second was more serious, I was threatened and robbed by two thugs when I went to see an SP. Other than that, just minor things like a session not being as good as I had expected it to be.
Are there more cons and thieves working the biz in Vancouver? Or are you mostly seeing SWs where this is more likely to occur?
Harmony! That is an awesome post! I wish it could be published in the newspaper. It has such a personal voice, like, people can really hear the human behind the SP.
From what little I have read of her she sounds like drivel.
From what little I have read of her she sounds like drivel.
When I first started there were all sorts of gals walking around New West & Burnaby so the first year I just saw a girl by parking off the road & discreetly signal her to come over.
During that year I found out about the "Seymour Girls" downtown Vancouver.
They took me for literally over a couple thousand cuz I was stupid enough to try out several of them thinking one would be different than the others - NOPE!
I spent $600 on a lousy BJ one night cuz EVERYTHING was an up-sell!
After a year I met one who I saw frequently she was cool & we clicked.
Saw her for 4 years & occasionally made trips to the "High Track" & mid track to see if there were some non-skanky ones to check out.
Ended up meeting a mixed bag -
some nice (50%)
some vice (50%)
So it was a wash, I still had a regular to fall back on.
After the regular moved on I began seeing gals out of The Georgia Straight & Monday Mag when in Victoria.
A few of them were nice but the rest were lackluster & clearly not enjoying the job.
So in a nutshell out of the approximately 300 gals I've seen I would say that 30 were well worth it.
7 really impressed me.
20 were so - so
And all the rest were a waste of time & money!
Some of those of course were blatant rip-offs, bait & switch, take the money & run, really BAD attitude & some were just fucking NUTS!
That's why I appreciate a good SP when I find one.
Those few who really make a clients experience a wonderful event are what keeps me hopeful & should be proud of what they do.
That is all.
THE SEX TRADE IN STATISTICS:
Fist of all, these so called stats, don't have links, so I don't know if they're made up or not. Second of all, they are based on out door work not indoor. Maybe the links are in her book? Who knows.
Tania Fiolleau has recently released Souled Out!, a book detailing her life as a former sex trade worker and madam.
Here are some of the figures she cites from her research into prostitution:
- Average age of entry: 14 to 16 years old
On kiddie stroll, yes. Everywhere else the average age is probably mid 20's. I don't have any stats to back it up, but I've been friends with probably more girls than were used to create that statistic.
- Average years in prostitution: 21
Possible. The money and the freedom is a hard lover to leave.
- Per cent younger than age 18 at entry: 44 per cent
Really? Uh nope. Outside work possibly, but inside, the legal age is 18, and I have met lots of young women with all kinds of degrees, out side jobs, ambitions, etc. Very few women I have met inside started on the street. Very few. These stats are based on out door work, not inside. I have met women that entered the trade in their 40's
- Percentage of sex trade workers threatened with a weapon: 78 per cent
I know many women that have never been threatened in anyway. Again this is out door work. In the paper today there was a story about a man in intensive care being beaten by a base ball bat. He was not a sex trade worker.
- Percentage of sex trade workers physically assaulted: 82 per cent
If you work indoors, use basic screening, and listen to your gut, you should be fine. However there is always the random factor. Look at Ted Bundy killing all those college students who were not prostitutes. Again this is based on out door work. We need to make a safe red light district for these women to work, so that it will be impossible for the Pictons of the world to come after them.
- Percentage of sex trade workers raped: 82 per cent
I just tried to find the stats on over all percentage of rape and molestation, but couldn't and I'm feeling a little lazy, so I will try and go by memory. When I was a kid and in high school, I think the stats were 1 in every 3 girls would be molested or raped before they hit the age of 18, and 1 in 4 for boys. I think its higher now, which is why I was trying to find it. We live in a funny, scary world. Being a sex worker or not does not guarantee you that you will or won't be raped. All you can do is listen to your gut, follow basic screenings, and not work on the street. Once again, this is based on outdoor sex work. This never happens in parlors, because there is always someone there. This has never happened to me as an independent, because I am not on drugs, so I am able to hear the inner voice that shouts alarms at me. Rapists and the like are looking for easy victims. Being high and desperate on a dark street corner, you can't get more easy picking then that. Once again, these women need a safe red light district.
- Percentage of sex trade workers raped more than five times: 73 per cent
See my post above.
- Percentage of sex trade workers who are currently or who have been homeless: 84 per cent
Once again this is lower east side out door workers. Its hard to keep it together, when the reason you're working in the first place is to support a habit. This is not indoor workers, or high track workers. Not even half the girls on Kingsway.
- Percentage of sex trade workers who, as children, were hit or beaten by a caregiver until injured or bruised: 49 per cent
Percentage of all children that have been beaten or injured as a child is probably 49 percent or higher. My dad was disciplined with a belt. His dad was disciplined with a coal shovel. I was never hit, not once. Well, one time when I was 17, I was supposed to be home right after school because I was grounded, and came home at 3 in the morning drunk and stupid instead. My dad was so mad because of my belligerent attitude, that he chased me around the living room, but I was faster. I'm pretty sure I could have beaten him up, if he caught me, hahaha. My dad was a very gentle hippie. I was just a really bad kid. Probably because I didn't get any beatings and didn't have enough rules, lol
- Percentage of sex trade workers who were sexually abused as a child: 65 to 95 per cent
look at my post a few posts above
- Diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder in Canada due to prostitution: 76 per cent
or ptsd related to life? Life is hard. Prostitution makes it easier for some, harder for others. If you are outside, living the super crappy life style of the downtown east side worker than absolutely.
Drug and alcohol use amongst
sex trade workers:
- Drugs: 78 per cent
- Alcohol: 36 per cent
I do know of a few girls that started out beautiful and safe in parlors and got messed up on drugs and ended up in the lower east side. A shame because they were stunning women. A few of them have passed away due to violence and drug abuse. However these women had addictive personality traits to begin with and were not able to stay away from drugs.
I myself don't use drugs. I can't find one that has side affects I'm ok with, lol I like to drink, and go out and cut loose with my girlfriends. I have so much fun drinking. I do share wine with gentlemen callers and I usually have sparkling wine here. I don't drink every day. Sometimes only a few times a month. Alcohol is very much a part of our culture. My uncle passed 2 years ago from cirrhosis of the liver due to alcoholism. He was not a prostitute. He was a carpenter, that worked steady his whole life.
I don't have one single drug addicted prostitute friend, that I know of. I have a drug addicted male friend that I've known since I was about 12 years old [the only one, and only because I've known him so long]. He is not a prostitute and does odd jobs for me here and there. I have two pot head friends. Both of them are not in the sex trade at all. One is a dj, the other works in a hospital. I do have a few fun lushes as friends, both prostitutes and non prostitutes.
Answers of sex trade workers when asked: "What do you need?"
- Would leave prostitution: 87 per cent
- Home or safe place: 78 per cent
- Job training: 73 per cent
- Health care: 58 per cent
- Peer support: 60 per cent
- Legal assistance: 42 per cent
- Alcohol and drug treatment: 77 per cent
Again the above are stats for outdoor workers
- Self-defence training: 49 per cent
Who doesn't? Working girl or otherwise. I strongly recommend it to any woman. I have taken a few self defense courses in my life
- Physical protection from pimp: 28 per cent*
This is a hard one to see, and hard to do anything about, because its behind the scenes. Independents and parlor girls can have pimps, just the same as outdoor workers. What a pimp is, essentially is a highly manipulative man, that lives off of you, and at the same time makes you feel like you can't be without him. Basically he is a man born without a soul. Sometimes they look like boyfriends,and feel like love, but they are surface bottom feeders. Some keep their women by fear, love, or violence. Some a combination of all three. Some strippers also have pimps. I know a girl who's pimp, cut up her vagina with scissors when she wanted to leave him. Its the same kind of person that can send those Nigeria emails, and swindle old ladies out of their last dollar, or steal identities, or any other kind of non victimless crime.
Many women not in the sex industry also have abusive boyfriends.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence
I'm a feminist [or rather an equalist] and I believe you can be in a healthy relationship with a man that you support. As long as you both have healthy boundaries, love, commitment, and compromises. It is completely possible to have a boyfriend that you love and support financially who is not a pimp and loves you back.
When I worked at the parlors the girls with pimps were always the least happy and the hardest to get along with. Quite often, if she had a slow day, she would have to go stand on Seymour or Kingsway street until 5am to make up for it. Start at 4pm and end at 5am
However, not one of my friends have pimps. My friends and I are all strong independent women that do things on our own. I have a few friends that used to have pimps and are retired from the business. They have PTSD, but that comes from their long term abusive relationship and not the actual sex trade. I wish I could tell you guys how to avoid women with pimps, but there is no way of knowing, unless you know the girl individually My one friend has tons of fond memories working on Seymour street. Just lots of bad memories and anger towards her ex. Rightfully so.
Because this industry is not regulated and not legal, it will always attract bottom feeders.
- Individual counselling: 58 per cent*
Who doesn't need counseling at some point in their life? Ps, you spelled counseling wrong.
phew that was hard work, typing all that, lol. I left out some stuff she said because I didn't think it was pertinent and it was already long enough.
Fist of all, these so called stats, don't have links, so I don't know if they're made up or not. Second of all, they are based on out door work not indoor. Maybe the links are in her book? Who knows.
Tania Fiolleau has recently released Souled Out!, a book detailing her life as a former sex trade worker and madam.
Here are some of the figures she cites from her research into prostitution:
- Average age of entry: 14 to 16 years old
On kiddie stroll, yes. Everywhere else the average age is probably mid 20's. I don't have any stats to back it up, but I've been friends with probably more girls than were used to create that statistic.
- Average years in prostitution: 21
Possible. The money and the freedom is a hard lover to leave.
- Per cent younger than age 18 at entry: 44 per cent
Really? Uh nope. Outside work possibly, but inside, the legal age is 18, and I have met lots of young women with all kinds of degrees, out side jobs, ambitions, etc. Very few women I have met inside started on the street. Very few. These stats are based on out door work, not inside. I have met women that entered the trade in their 40's
- Percentage of sex trade workers threatened with a weapon: 78 per cent
I know many women that have never been threatened in anyway. Again this is out door work. In the paper today there was a story about a man in intensive care being beaten by a base ball bat. He was not a sex trade worker.
- Percentage of sex trade workers physically assaulted: 82 per cent
If you work indoors, use basic screening, and listen to your gut, you should be fine. However there is always the random factor. Look at Ted Bundy killing all those college students who were not prostitutes. Again this is based on out door work. We need to make a safe red light district for these women to work, so that it will be impossible for the Pictons of the world to come after them.
- Percentage of sex trade workers raped: 82 per cent
I just tried to find the stats on over all percentage of rape and molestation, but couldn't and I'm feeling a little lazy, so I will try and go by memory. When I was a kid and in high school, I think the stats were 1 in every 3 girls would be molested or raped before they hit the age of 18, and 1 in 4 for boys. I think its higher now, which is why I was trying to find it. We live in a funny, scary world. Being a sex worker or not does not guarantee you that you will or won't be raped. All you can do is listen to your gut, follow basic screenings, and not work on the street. Once again, this is based on outdoor sex work. This never happens in parlors, because there is always someone there. This has never happened to me as an independent, because I am not on drugs, so I am able to hear the inner voice that shouts alarms at me. Rapists and the like are looking for easy victims. Being high and desperate on a dark street corner, you can't get more easy picking then that. Once again, these women need a safe red light district.
- Percentage of sex trade workers raped more than five times: 73 per cent
See my post above.
- Percentage of sex trade workers who are currently or who have been homeless: 84 per cent
Once again this is lower east side out door workers. Its hard to keep it together, when the reason you're working in the first place is to support a habit. This is not indoor workers, or high track workers. Not even half the girls on Kingsway.
- Percentage of sex trade workers who, as children, were hit or beaten by a caregiver until injured or bruised: 49 per cent
Percentage of all children that have been beaten or injured as a child is probably 49 percent or higher. My dad was disciplined with a belt. His dad was disciplined with a coal shovel. I was never hit, not once. Well, one time when I was 17, I was supposed to be home right after school because I was grounded, and came home at 3 in the morning drunk and stupid instead. My dad was so mad because of my belligerent attitude, that he chased me around the living room, but I was faster. I'm pretty sure I could have beaten him up, if he caught me, hahaha. My dad was a very gentle hippie. I was just a really bad kid. Probably because I didn't get any beatings and didn't have enough rules, lol
- Percentage of sex trade workers who were sexually abused as a child: 65 to 95 per cent
look at my post a few posts above
- Diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder in Canada due to prostitution: 76 per cent
or ptsd related to life? Life is hard. Prostitution makes it easier for some, harder for others. If you are outside, living the super crappy life style of the downtown east side worker than absolutely.
Drug and alcohol use amongst
sex trade workers:
- Drugs: 78 per cent
- Alcohol: 36 per cent
I do know of a few girls that started out beautiful and safe in parlors and got messed up on drugs and ended up in the lower east side. A shame because they were stunning women. A few of them have passed away due to violence and drug abuse. However these women had addictive personality traits to begin with and were not able to stay away from drugs.
I myself don't use drugs. I can't find one that has side affects I'm ok with, lol I like to drink, and go out and cut loose with my girlfriends. I have so much fun drinking. I do share wine with gentlemen callers and I usually have sparkling wine here. I don't drink every day. Sometimes only a few times a month. Alcohol is very much a part of our culture. My uncle passed 2 years ago from cirrhosis of the liver due to alcoholism. He was not a prostitute. He was a carpenter, that worked steady his whole life.
I don't have one single drug addicted prostitute friend, that I know of. I have a drug addicted male friend that I've known since I was about 12 years old [the only one, and only because I've known him so long]. He is not a prostitute and does odd jobs for me here and there. I have two pot head friends. Both of them are not in the sex trade at all. One is a dj, the other works in a hospital. I do have a few fun lushes as friends, both prostitutes and non prostitutes.
Answers of sex trade workers when asked: "What do you need?"
- Would leave prostitution: 87 per cent
- Home or safe place: 78 per cent
- Job training: 73 per cent
- Health care: 58 per cent
- Peer support: 60 per cent
- Legal assistance: 42 per cent
- Alcohol and drug treatment: 77 per cent
Again the above are stats for outdoor workers
- Self-defence training: 49 per cent
Who doesn't? Working girl or otherwise. I strongly recommend it to any woman. I have taken a few self defense courses in my life
- Physical protection from pimp: 28 per cent*
This is a hard one to see, and hard to do anything about, because its behind the scenes. Independents and parlor girls can have pimps, just the same as outdoor workers. What a pimp is, essentially is a highly manipulative man, that lives off of you, and at the same time makes you feel like you can't be without him. Basically he is a man born without a soul. Sometimes they look like boyfriends,and feel like love, but they are surface bottom feeders. Some keep their women by fear, love, or violence. Some a combination of all three. Some strippers also have pimps. I know a girl who's pimp, cut up her vagina with scissors when she wanted to leave him. Its the same kind of person that can send those Nigeria emails, and swindle old ladies out of their last dollar, or steal identities, or any other kind of non victimless crime.
Many women not in the sex industry also have abusive boyfriends.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence
I'm a feminist [or rather an equalist] and I believe you can be in a healthy relationship with a man that you support. As long as you both have healthy boundaries, love, commitment, and compromises. It is completely possible to have a boyfriend that you love and support financially who is not a pimp and loves you back.
When I worked at the parlors the girls with pimps were always the least happy and the hardest to get along with. Quite often, if she had a slow day, she would have to go stand on Seymour or Kingsway street until 5am to make up for it. Start at 4pm and end at 5am
However, not one of my friends have pimps. My friends and I are all strong independent women that do things on our own. I have a few friends that used to have pimps and are retired from the business. They have PTSD, but that comes from their long term abusive relationship and not the actual sex trade. I wish I could tell you guys how to avoid women with pimps, but there is no way of knowing, unless you know the girl individually My one friend has tons of fond memories working on Seymour street. Just lots of bad memories and anger towards her ex. Rightfully so.
Because this industry is not regulated and not legal, it will always attract bottom feeders.
- Individual counselling: 58 per cent*
Who doesn't need counseling at some point in their life? Ps, you spelled counseling wrong.
phew that was hard work, typing all that, lol. I left out some stuff she said because I didn't think it was pertinent and it was already long enough.
Harmony, thank-you so much for taking the time to addressing this woman's statistics. Mwah!
If I never had direct contact with this industry, I would think very different about it. I certainly have changed many of my perceptions since dipping my toes in.
We all know society's viewpoint on the sex trade. It's certainly not always pretty, but for those of us with conscious choice in the matter, it is what we make of it.
If I never had direct contact with this industry, I would think very different about it. I certainly have changed many of my perceptions since dipping my toes in.
We all know society's viewpoint on the sex trade. It's certainly not always pretty, but for those of us with conscious choice in the matter, it is what we make of it.
to me al, that falls in the category of, "i read about it." personally, the rcmp has such a bad reputation lately that i wouldn't be surprised if the wholoe thing was trumped up
Originally posted by al - One of the reasons that LE worked hard to close down Craigslist in Canada is the well reported case of the 14 year old madam in Abbotsford who was selling herself and her classmates. -
Another one of those two edged swords.......without CL she might not have organized and sold her pals (who couldn't have been that hard to recruit if a 14 year old girl could talk them into it) and also LE would most likely have been a lot longer finding out about it and putting a stop to it. It seems to me that CL being a known ad source is exactly the kind of regulatory avenue that society needs to protect and serve not only the public but the participants.
As far as I'm concerned the woman who quoted/made up these stats is simply continuing to exploit her street sisters only now she's a good Christian instead of an evil whore............I can't help but imagine what Christ would have to say about it, kinda like looking to my older brother for guidance, and the man I look up to would not be impressed.
Seems to me that "Christians" spend far too much time passing judgment on others instead of endeavoring to be Christlike. Like maybe they don't listen so good or they're too lazy to read the book and make reasoned decisions based on what it actually says? (not counting the endless distortions resulting from 2000 years of translation and willful distortion.........
So what would Christ think? First and foremost The Man would NOT pass judgment, people do the best they can until they learn to do better....... next, I'm thinking he'd show the way to heal the hearts and minds of any who might be suffering and then, I'm pretty certain he'd help any who wanted help to find and live their calling in life WHATEVER that might be. So how can those who claim to follow his teachings do any less????????????
Another one of those two edged swords.......without CL she might not have organized and sold her pals (who couldn't have been that hard to recruit if a 14 year old girl could talk them into it) and also LE would most likely have been a lot longer finding out about it and putting a stop to it. It seems to me that CL being a known ad source is exactly the kind of regulatory avenue that society needs to protect and serve not only the public but the participants.
As far as I'm concerned the woman who quoted/made up these stats is simply continuing to exploit her street sisters only now she's a good Christian instead of an evil whore............I can't help but imagine what Christ would have to say about it, kinda like looking to my older brother for guidance, and the man I look up to would not be impressed.
Seems to me that "Christians" spend far too much time passing judgment on others instead of endeavoring to be Christlike. Like maybe they don't listen so good or they're too lazy to read the book and make reasoned decisions based on what it actually says? (not counting the endless distortions resulting from 2000 years of translation and willful distortion.........
So what would Christ think? First and foremost The Man would NOT pass judgment, people do the best they can until they learn to do better....... next, I'm thinking he'd show the way to heal the hearts and minds of any who might be suffering and then, I'm pretty certain he'd help any who wanted help to find and live their calling in life WHATEVER that might be. So how can those who claim to follow his teachings do any less????????????
