Is it love, lust or two dogs rutting in a parking lot?

[VinVan]

This thread came from discussion that flowed out of a review about Maggie at Swan Lake, in which I wondered about the feelings at play during that session, and indeed with a range of SPs I’ve seen recently, where I have been feeling more emotional after leaving the room. By emotional, I mean not necessarily just thinking about the sex that transpired, but feeling a deeper connection that lingers over the days.

https://perb.cc/xenforo/threads/maggie-at-swan-a-tale-of-woe-redemption-and-wtf-long-read.369745/

Of course, when we hire an SP for an hour it’s a commercial exchange. And as many on the board have pointed out, it’s in the financial interest of the provider to drop as many emotional breadcrumbs as possible on the sexual path to keep the customer coming (haha) back for more. That’s pretty straightforward, but humans being the complicated beings they are, have emotions that can gum up this clearly-defined exchange of goods for services.

Over the years, I’ve read stories on Perb of clients who have dated SPs, and a few who have married one. And then there are those Perbs whose significant other is fine with them visiting SPs. All of this intrigues me as there is obviously something else at play, evidence that it is not always just purely a commercial exchange. One provider I know recently married a customer; the cynics might say this was part of her exit strategy and that the client has just exchanged one financial arrangement for a different one. But would you really freely choose to marry someone you didn’t love (outside of arranged marriages, of course)?

I’ve been pondering this question for a bit now with no obvious or clear conclusion. As described in the review with Maggie, she is a bright happy person who brings that into the room; no doubt this is one of the reasons she is so popular. We have a great time and I adore her. I’m under no illusions that I am the only person she has this effect upon; but that being said, is it just not just a normal emotional response to “love” the person providing such an intimate experience to us? And I don’t mean “love” in the classical Hollywood rom-com, Judeo-Christian-marry-one-and-have-them-fulfill-all-your-emotional-needs “love.” I mean a more universal, non-finite “love” where you truly appreciate the person - really, adore them - without the want or need for possession. Y’know, just being in the moment, as the Buddhists say.

Then again, maybe it’s just lust? Or two dogs rutting in the parking lot?

 

[ChromeGasCap]

IMHO this is just lust.
IMO love is a choice and it is reciprocal, meaning that the partner has made the choice also.
It is Lust that can be one sided, whereby one person is in Lust and the other is not.
Lust is created by the chemicals in our bodies, that biologically initiate our need to procreate.
With great mental fortitude, a person can fight the dilutions created by lust.
Love being a choice, why would one choose to stay in love if it were not reciprocal?
I believe that nobody in their right mind would make this choice, hence it must merely be lust driving ones motivations.

This hobby is about fantasy, and nothing more.
When you are seeing and paying a girl, perhaps a few times a week, to get fucked, how much do you think you know about this person?
I can tell you! Not much.
You only get to see and know, that which she wishes to share.

This is a great hobby, but do not get lost in it.

 

[emacky]

We've all had this feeling before one point or two in this hobby. We see someone several times and the line between business and personal become mixed. Both parties open up and willing to become vulnerable or something just clicks and it doesn't just become about sex anymore.

I had this conversation with another member before. When you have feelings or a special connection with an SP it comes with rose-tinted glasses. You see what you want and hope from the connection.

I'm not sure which is worst, if it's only you that feels that way or if both feel it. If it's only you, she might milk you for what she can get. If you both have feelings, then it's a case of trying to make it work out with someone and depending why they're doing it, could have other challenges leaving the industry.

In my personal experience I had feelings for two ex-SP. I really wanted a more deeper relationship with them but I never considered the other baggage they came with (ie kids, debts, lack of citizenship/work permit, lack of work skills). When the glasses came off, it was very jarring why it wouldn't work. Even a former SP friend told me it wouldn't work or be ideal for me to date the SP who actually was about to retire and was willing to start a relationship with me.

It's really hard to date someone like that unless you're willing to financially support them or deal with everything else they come with. Plus there's no guarantee the sex will be the same or the magic will be there in a relationship.

 

[GentlemanJack69]

This thread came from discussion that flowed out of a review about Maggie at Swan Lake, in which I wondered about the feelings at play during that session, and indeed with a range of SPs I’ve seen recently, where I have been feeling more emotional after leaving the room. By emotional, I mean not necessarily just thinking about the sex that transpired, but feeling a deeper connection that lingers over the days.

https://perb.cc/xenforo/threads/maggie-at-swan-a-tale-of-woe-redemption-and-wtf-long-read.369745/

Of course, when we hire an SP for an hour it’s a commercial exchange. And as many on the board have pointed out, it’s in the financial interest of the provider to drop as many emotional breadcrumbs as possible on the sexual path to keep the customer coming (haha) back for more. That’s pretty straightforward, but humans being the complicated beings they are, have emotions that can gum up this clearly-defined exchange of goods for services.

Over the years, I’ve read stories on Perb of clients who have dated SPs, and a few who have married one. And then there are those Perbs whose significant other is fine with them visiting SPs. All of this intrigues me as there is obviously something else at play, evidence that it is not always just purely a commercial exchange. One provider I know recently married a customer; the cynics might say this was part of her exit strategy and that the client has just exchanged one financial arrangement for a different one. But would you really freely choose to marry someone you didn’t love (outside of arranged marriages, of course)?

I’ve been pondering this question for a bit now with no obvious or clear conclusion. As described in the review with Maggie, she is a bright happy person who brings that into the room; no doubt this is one of the reasons she is so popular. We have a great time and I adore her. I’m under no illusions that I am the only person she has this effect upon; but that being said, is it just not just a normal emotional response to “love” the person providing such an intimate experience to us? And I don’t mean “love” in the classical Hollywood rom-com, Judeo-Christian-marry-one-and-have-them-fulfill-all-your-emotional-needs “love.” I mean a more universal, non-finite “love” where you truly appreciate the person - really, adore them - without the want or need for possession. Y’know, just being in the moment, as the Buddhists say.

Then again, maybe it’s just lust? Or two dogs rutting in the parking lot?

Love builds out of the experiences you have with the person you're with. If those experiences keep occurring and are consistently good experiences your feelings towards that person will be good feelings. I don't think that you can truly love someone without spending time with them without the transactional nature that you would have at the Lake, but depending on how often you have that experience I think that if you can trick your mind into believing in genuine connection whether it truly is there or not, you can fall in love. One of the reasons why I never ask for any Swan in particular is I need to ensure that it's only transactional on my part. I have an agreement with my wife and we both agree that the best way to avoid attachment is to never consistently see one SP.

 

[Ctian]

I have fallen victim of this Lust/Love, I have had a couple tell me they love me and I have said it as well, but it is a transaction and it is easier to say I love you than I lust you...when all my boxes are ticked I continue to see said provider and this is when it happens, I don't let it affect me to the point I want to leave my Wife and support this relatively unknown person to me, but I definitely fall into a place where i care for this Girl and only really want to see her, then I read a good post from one of you perbers and venture out, sometimes it's what i need to break rhythm and continue doing what I do.
At times I almost feel guilty by not seeing this Girl but I think about the fact she isn't just there waiting for me and banging other dudes so I kinda get a grip on reality.
Places like the Lake where I have realistically never had a bad experience are so many great Women, several I have repeated with many times, sometimes I get the sad face when I come in and they know I am not there for them but they are still very friendly say hello and get hugs, so once in a while I venture to other pastures to avoid that uneasy feeling...I can't do them all, all the time.

 

[ModSquad]

You need to separate your feelings of lust vs love. I’ve been guilty of the same feelings and they don’t end well. Almost 25 years of experience speaking here. Be happy with the experience and move on.

 

[VinVan]

IMHO this is just lust.
IMO love is a choice and it is reciprocal, meaning that the partner has made the choice also.
It is Lust that can be one sided, whereby one person is in Lust and the other is not.
Lust is created by the chemicals in our bodies, that biologically initiate our need to procreate.
With great mental fortitude, a person can fight the dilutions created by lust.
Love being a choice, why would one choose to stay in love if it were not reciprocal?
I believe that nobody in their right mind would make this choice, hence it must merely be lust driving ones motivations.

This hobby is about fantasy, and nothing more.
When you are seeing and paying a girl, perhaps a few times a week, to get fucked, how much do you think you know about this person?
I can tell you! Not much.
You only get to see and know, that which she wishes to share.

This is a great hobby, but do not get lost in it.

I agree with you that there is a version of love that demands reciprocity. I would call that being ‘in love.’ For the sake of shorthand this is the type of love most often represented to us in media, from Hollywood to Hallmark and Valentine’s Day - it’s the notion that there is the “one” and the two of you are ‘in love’. Equals in a shared partnership, if you will.

And yet there are other manifestations of love, it would seem. Like puppy love, when you have that first big crush with no logic, reason, or experience dealing with those emotions.

And then there is love that is non-reciprocated. I can think of two instances in which this type of love exists. The first is when we do something nice for others, like giving to a charity or a panhandler. I think in that moment, we feel love (not a deep love, but love nevertheless) for another human who will likely never love us back. The second is when a child pops out of the womb; in most cases the parents will love that child unconditionally and the only thing the child will reciprocate is sleepiness nights and three years of poopy diapers; certainly not love because an infant has no capacity to express it. So there is an asymmetrical love; and I would argue that this type of love represents the best of us because we give it freely without asking anything in return.

I’m sure there are a ton of different types of “love” between those tent poles.

I think a lot of us have a complicated relationship with love because it is, in fact, so closely tied to lust.

I’m certainly not an endocrinologist, but there is some hormonal crossover between the feelings of lust and love, specifically oxytocin; which is thought to be the hormone responsible for bonding and attachment, but also released is substantial amounts during sex. It’s activated in the reward centre of the brain; the same place that lights up when we eat food we enjoy, or an addict takes a hit of cocaine.

In the past couple of years I’ve had more than my share of great sex with SPs in which I’ve gotten way more than any advertised service, had someone return my money despite my protests, and a few take considerably less than the advertised rate. I’m not a high roller, a gym bunny, nor do I resemble Brad Pitt. So it got me to wonder what’s going on? And I think that the providers whom I see on the regular are ones that I adore and feel love for. Just to be clear, there is a fine line between “in love”, infatuation and “feeling love for;” and it’s pretty easy to cross those boundaries. The difference between the past me and the current me, I think, is the understanding that love is not finite and there is no need to be stingy with it. I’m pretty happy in my civilian life, sex notwithstanding, so there is also the realization that I don’t want that to change. And by extension I can feel love for many people and express it in a myriad of ways: a small thoughtful gift; listening deeply to her stories; asking meaningful questions; finding out what pleases her. I don’t have to give my heart and soul to that person; just enough to be present and aware of their needs. To be clear, I have no expectations when I engage with an SP other than something resembling the agreed upon services. I have no intention to get involved with an SP outside of business hours. I go in with a positive attitude and the intention of somehow making her feel special. With some of the SPs I’m closer with we have discussed these ideas; with others it remains unspoken because the L word can trigger a lot of different reactions. I just know, upon reflection, that bringing this energy into the room is something that has its own reward and there are usually downstream benefits over which I have no control, nor wish to.

The kind of love I’m talking about is just being kind to people, meeting them where they’re at, in some small way making their day a little better. That might be the person at the grocery check-out, a waiter, a panhandler; or, in this case, a SP.

 

[Ebbhead]

You need to separate your feelings of lust vs love. I’ve been guilty of the same feelings and they don’t end well. Almost 25 years of experience speaking here. Be happy with the experience and move on.

Exactly. Lust is a feeling. Love happens and you make a decision.

 

[VinVan]

Its lust for the customer. It's 100% commercial for the SP. Love, real love, never comes into it at all. Nor can it in a commercial relationship.

Being nice, kind, considerate, respectful, passionate, forgiving, generous, lustful, etc. to an SP - or for an SP to show any of that to a client - is not love, nor anything remotely close to it. The SP, by definition, is there for a commercial purpose.

I've experienced real love. I've also had a lot of experiences with SPs over the last 25 or so years. They are mutually exclusive concepts. Trust me on this one.

If people read my long narrative reviews, you will see that I regularly ask the ladies to tell me: "I love you;" "Wǒ ài nǐ," "Aishitemasu;" "salanghaeyo" in the session, and I do the same with them. The girls generally "love" it, and it makes the session a lot hotter for me, but that is not "real love" between two people. It's roleplaying in a commercial transaction. Roleplaying is perfectly normal, but never lose sight of what it is you are really doing and experiencing. You do so at your own peril.

Men have fallen in "love" with prostitutes since the beginning of time. A story, literally, as old as time itself. But it is a child's fantasy, then as now. An emotionally stunted male that - unfortunately - has likely never known true love in the context of a sexual relationship, and can't sort out his feelings in the moment. Sexual lust can feel like love, but when you are paying the other person, its a non-starter. It's pure delusion to think that the person you are paying for sex loves you, in the "real love" sense of the word.

Only where it becomes "non-commercial" for the person in the provider role... and even then it likely would take significant time to transition away from commerciality, and the baggage that would leave would be enormous... could there be any possibility of real love.

Now, I suppose, any two people could eventually fall into real love from any starting point... meeting on a bus... or meeting in a massage parlour... or on a date with an escort but... man-o-man is commerciality ever a bad starting point.

When I was a youngster in the early 1990's William S. Burroughs was still alive and, despite being a "Beat Generation" (1950s) writer, he was quite popular in our Gen-X culture. He had a spoken word album that came out in 1993 called "Advice for Young People." One of the most popular quotes from there is, "Beware of whores who say they don't want money. The hell they don't. What they mean is that they want more money; much more, these are the most expensive whores what can be got."

It's a slightly different concept, as here I think here we are more talking about the delusion of the customer, than the representations of (ahem!) "whores." But customers of prostitutes who are in any way prone to this very common form of delusion would be well advised to listen closely to what Uncle Billy was telling them. My 2cents (or maybe this one was more of a nickel )

It seems as though I have not made myself quite clear regarding how I am defining “love” in my actions with SPs. I just want to be perfectly clear that I am not “in love” with the SPs I visit on the regular, but rather hold them “with love” when I am in their company. I think “in love” implies that one or both parties are after reciprocity; it implies the pursuit of some kind of commitment. This can be disorienting for both parties in an SP-client relationship. I am not after a commitment beyond what happens in the room.

Holding someone “with love” (at the risk of sounding new-agey), on the other hand, is in its intent non-reciprocal (thought in some cases the SP may return it). I just want to be clear that I am not falling in love with any of the SPs I visit; I do not pursue social engagements outside of the room; and I’m perfectly happy with my civilian life. I do not expect any SP to love me back.

When I go into a room with an SP I make a conscious (it used to be subconscious before I was able to define it) decision to hold them “with love.” It means demonstrating through my actions that - within the parameters of this most intimate of commercial transactions - I truly care about them as a human. This means respecting all their boundaries but also opening the conversation to them as a person as well as a sexual being. There is an old saying that people do not remember what you say, but rather how you make them feel. When I spend time with an SP my intent is for them to feel loved in the moment without reciprocity. This may sound hopelessly romantic and naive, but some of the experiences I have been having recently make me believe there are positive outcomes from this way of engagement.

Perhaps the most compelling example is a happy-ending SP I have been seeing for the past 3 months. It all started off innocently enough with her asking me what kind of massage I wanted and me replying respectfully that I wasn’t much into massage but rather enjoyed edging. After explaining to her what that meant she was agreeable to provide that service. I was honest with her in how I participated in this hobby and the conversation evolved into what gave us each of us pleasure and exploring those things. We ended up doing several off-menu acronyms, some fucking, and me bringing her off several times. Something in our engagement in our first meeting indicated to me that she was excited to explore more of her sexuality and so at the next session I described a little bit about the S&M world, consent, and safe words. We established some clear boundaries in which I spanked her and did some breath play while bringing her off. She was clearly into it. The following session we played with sensations and restraints; a few more after I probed her ass with my fingers and brought her to a series of orgasms she had never experienced before. Most recently, I became the first person to penetrate her anally and she loved it with an intense series of anal orgasms the likes of which I have never seen. With each visit she insists I fuck her ass. And the funny thing is that I’m not even that into anal, but the fact she is makes it veeeeerrrrry hot.

All of this was built on the foundation of me holding her “with love” constantly checking in, never going past her comfort zone, always debriefing the session with her. To be clear, when I met her I had no intention of pursuing any of these activities; nothing was premeditated, but rather the outcome of an organic process in which there was no intention except to make her feel loved and safe. I never set out to have anal sex with her. She has expressed to me more than once how grateful she is to have met me and to the world I have showed her. And I have replied that I have done nothing more than hold a mirror to what was always there. She comes from a world where sex was shameful and most of her romantic sexual experiences encompassed a 4-minute fuck in which the guy got off and little else. I am secure in the knowledge that whomever she dates in the future will have to be more than a 4-minute boyfriend; I’m not jealous of that at all. I know she will leave the industry at some point and our relationship will end then or before; and I feel no pain or possessiveness about that. I feel blessed that we have crossed paths and that she has given me as much joy as I have given her.

This may be the most pyrotechnic of SP experiences that I have had in the past 2-3 years, but it has by no means been and isolated case. I have received complimentary sessions (despite vigorous protests), off menu activities, money returned (again, despite vigorous protests). There are too many incidents like this to chalk up to chance or my average looks. Until I observe otherwise, I attribute it to love; not falling in love, but holding the other person with love.

I believe you can love more than one person at once. Love is not finite like the gas (or charge) in your car, or the funds in your bank account. The depth and commitment of that love may differ, but the essence of it is drawn from the same well. And to be perfectly honest the goal is not getting better sex; it’s to try and be a decent human being. When you treat others with love, care, and humor, it is its own reward.

 

[Ty-rst]

Ooohh... nice! Long reply. A man after my own heart. I'm getting a taste my own medicine here. As it is usually me writing the long stuff, with little to no one saying more than a line or two back at me (as the people that PM with me, or read my thread will know. Ahhh... most of them love it. They know I'm weird. All good)

Honestly, brother, what you are saying sounds dangerous as hell to me. Red flags all over it. I'm not saying "stop" ... well, maybe I am saying that, for your mental health. "Stop if you can," or find a way where you can get to "stop." But you know as well as I do that you are not going to stop... are you? What are the odds of you walking away from this altogether and treating some other SP "with love," instead of anal sex girl. and leaving her behind?

They are "zero," right? And that is the problem. This is not about treating SPs in general "with love" or "holding them with love." It's about your feelings for a particular person.

You can try to define "love" down into some lower, lesser, less potent, less dangerous thing. But I don't think you are experiencing this relationship in that way at all. Frankly, you wouldn't have written that original post if you were just treating an SP with respect and kindness, and calling that "holding them with love." You are experiencing it as a man loves a woman in the context of a sexual relationship. i.e., the normal way. Not as some lesser thing that you can dole out as you see fit, and then walk away as needed. You are "all in" by the sounds if it, whether you can see that right now, or not. You just have a real bad starting point: in an AMP. So now you are seeking some kind of assurance from the void... (i.e., the Internet)... or maybe a foil to test your argument against. That is how it sounds to me anyway.

Most guys treat the SPs with all kinds of respect, care, tenderness, admiration, mutuality, etc. I know I do. And I read review-after-review like that here on perb. I could call that some lesser form of "love," but I would just be confusing the issue, and fooling myself at that point. All it is just basic human decency in the context of a paid prostitution arrangement - with maybe a little roleplaying and exploring thrown in.

There are tons of us here doing some exploring. First this, first that, first White guy, first climax with a customer, first anal, first whatever. They tell the same stuff to everyone, man. Maybe some of it could be real, but probably not. I've been out here 25 years. It's always been the same. Nothing is new, unique or unusual. The client is never "the special one." They are just clients, and there are another 9 more today. Sorry, its the truth. This is the trade they are in.

I'm going to see my regular girl on Friday. Our whole thing is about passionate exploring, "I love you," mutuality, progression to the new, etc. I need that. Because I am a somewhat broken person. I need the role-play. The experience in the moment. She's doing a job to make money. In a few months she will go back to China, and I will role play with someone else. I need to keep all that straight in my head, or suffer. It takes years to get this stuff straight for most guys, and even then most of us slip up from time-to-time.

Regrettably, you need to keep it all straight in your head too, or suffer. I'm not trying to be a dink here but, I thinking the suffering may have already begun for you. How are you ever going to walk away from this, the way you are talking? I would strongly encourage you to try and have some sexual interaction with other providers, and limit your contact with her. I think it would help you a lot.

dude sound harsh at times but he’s right. I’m in this exact position and it sucks. The sooner that you realize you are in love the better. Denial and eventually not having that person anymore will make things hurt a lot more.

on a different note, I had no idea a casual business relationship would got this deep…

 

[ChromeGasCap]

dude sound harsh at times but he’s right. I’m in this exact position and it sucks. The sooner that you realize you are in love the better. Denial and eventually not having that person anymore will make things hurt a lot more.

on a different note, I had no idea a casual business relationship would got this deep…

You have to constantly emphasize in your mind how many men she is potentially servicing, and come to a realization as to what the likelihood is that you have any real significance to her outside of the income she derives from you.
It may drive you crazy having unfinished conversations that you are driven to see her in order to conclude, not even necessarily for the happy ending. You have to realize that she has probably already had these same convos with other men already, and your opinions or contributions are inconsequential.
You may be driven by the fact that you are impressed with yourself over how you satisfy her. Whether or not you satisfy her at all, you may never know truly. Her ability to be satisfied by any man is a choice driven by her own desires and preferences, and she will NEVER tell you the whole truth about either of these.
If you constantly remind yourself of these things, you will eventually get to a point whereby you see the interaction for what it truly is; A satisfaction for money transaction, nothing more and nothing less.

Many guys live lonely lives due to the dynamics of dating and relationships in today's environment, and it is often too easy to fall for your SP, and it is easy to be taken advantage of.
I would always advise attempting to subdue these natural tendencies while partaking in these unnatural interactions.

 

[Ty-rst]

You have to constantly emphasize in your mind how many men she is potentially servicing, and come to a realization as to what the likelihood is that you have any real significance to her outside of the income she derives from you.
It may drive you crazy having unfinished conversations that you are driven to see her in order to conclude, not even necessarily for the happy ending. You have to realize that she has probably already had these same convos with other men already, and your opinions or contributions are inconsequential.
You may be driven by the fact that you are impressed with yourself over how you satisfy her. Whether or not you satisfy her at all, you may never know truly. Her ability to be satisfied by any man is a choice driven by her own desires and preferences, and she will NEVER tell you the whole truth about either of these.
If you constantly remind yourself of these things, you will eventually get to a point whereby you see the interaction for what it truly is; A satisfaction for money transaction, nothing more and nothing less.

Many guys live lonely lives due to the dynamics of dating and relationships in today's environment, and it is often too easy to fall for your SP, and it is easy to be taken advantage of.
I would always advise attempting to subdue these natural tendencies while partaking in these unnatural interactions.

Agreed, I think the point is that it’s a business over how many other men she’s doing it to. I don’t think that many of us will actually believe that they are the only one the provider is seeing.

And there’s just something about those unfinished conversations that makes things difficult. It was never really about the sex, it was most performative. I was in a car accident and later got laid off. When I finally could see her again she retired

 

[VinVan]

Ooohh... nice! Long reply. A man after my own heart. I'm getting a taste my own medicine here. As it is usually me writing the long stuff, with little to no one saying more than a line or two back at me (as the people that PM with me, or read my thread will know. Ahhh... most of them love it. They know I'm weird. All good)

Honestly, brother, what you are saying sounds dangerous as hell to me. Red flags all over it. I'm not saying "stop" ... well, maybe I am saying that, for your mental health. "Stop if you can," or find a way where you can get to "stop." But you know as well as I do that you are not going to stop... are you? What are the odds of you walking away from this altogether and treating some other SP "with love," instead of anal sex girl. and leaving her behind?

They are "zero," right? And that is the problem. This is not about treating SPs in general "with love" or "holding them with love." It's about your feelings for a particular person.

You can try to define "love" down into some lower, lesser, less potent, less dangerous thing. But I don't think you are experiencing this relationship in that way at all. Frankly, you wouldn't have written that original post if you were just treating an SP with respect and kindness, and calling that "holding them with love." You are experiencing it as a man loves a woman in the context of a sexual relationship. i.e., the normal way. Not as some lesser thing that you can dole out as you see fit, and then walk away as needed. You are "all in" by the sounds if it, whether you can see that right now, or not. You just have a real bad starting point: in an AMP. So now you are seeking some kind of assurance from the void... (i.e., the Internet)... or maybe a foil to test your argument against. That is how it sounds to me anyway.

Most guys treat the SPs with all kinds of respect, care, tenderness, admiration, mutuality, etc. I know I do. And I read review-after-review like that here on perb. I could call that some lesser form of "love," but I would just be confusing the issue, and fooling myself at that point. All it is just basic human decency in the context of a paid prostitution arrangement - with maybe a little roleplaying and exploring thrown in.

There are tons of us here doing some exploring. First this, first that, first White guy, first climax with a customer, first anal, first whatever. They tell the same stuff to everyone, man. Maybe some of it could be real, but probably not. I've been out here 25 years. It's always been the same. Nothing is new, unique or unusual. The client is never "the special one." They are just clients, and there are another 9 more today. Sorry, its the truth. This is the trade they are in.

I'm going to see my regular girl on Friday. Our whole thing is about passionate exploring, "I love you," mutuality, progression to the new, etc. I need that. Because I am a somewhat broken person. I need the role-play. The experience in the moment. She's doing a job to make money. In a few months she will go back to China, and I will role play with someone else. I need to keep all that straight in my head, or suffer. It takes years to get this stuff straight for most guys, and even then most of us slip up from time-to-time.

Regrettably, you need to keep it all straight in your head too, or suffer. I'm not trying to be a dink here but, I think the suffering may have already begun for you. How are you ever going to walk away from this, the way you are talking? I would strongly encourage you to try and have some sexual interaction with other providers, and limit your contact with her. I think it would help you a lot.

Thanks for engaging. And for your concern about my “mental health,” haha. I appreciate it and I’ll take it at face value as sincere concern about my state of being. I can assure you, however, that I am fine. The HE provider I am referencing in that post is one of several whom I visit on the regular and I am neither “in love” with her, nor spending my waking hours obsessing about her. I enjoy my time with her, as I do with many of the SPs I see, and I only brought up that story as an example (albeit one on the far end of the bell curve) of my recent experiences. I assure you I am not “suffering” and I am at peace with the notion that the relationship with this SP will come to an end at some point and I suspect we’ll both be the better for it. I get how some folks are into role play and how that fulfills some need in the moment. It’s never been my thing as I prefer folks to be themselves as much as possible (with the realization that for many SPs it’s an elaborate ruse).

I can understand, however, how it may seem I’ve gone off the deep end. We have a complicated relationship with love in our culture, and none more so than men. I think as men, love is a much more challenging emotion than it is for women. Because of social roles women are expected to nurture and love in a wide spectrum of relationships, whereas with men it is frowned upon in many circles to express any kind of love, even in a committed relationship. I’ve seen men teased by other men for simply saying, “I love you” to their SOs in front of their macho buddies. It’s no wonder then, that when we hear the word “love” many of us think of the worst parts of it: possessiveness, jealousy, unrequited, heartbreak, pain. And in the male paradigm, I think it is quite common to associate love with weakness; to surrendering your identity, to letting the woman have the power, to emasculating yourself. But for me it’s none of those. It’s taken me a little while to work through those associations (and I’m still processing, which is why this thread is interesting to me) and come to the understanding that none of those beliefs need be true (unless you choose them to be).

I can remember quite clearly in my younger days that I equated love with an overwhelming desire to be with the other person; that desire was so strong that it ached when I was separated from my beloved. Later when I had met my sexual muse I became such a slave to the need for the new sexual experiences she was taking me on that I could barely focusing on anything but the next adventure we would have. I was “in love” in those days, but the love was egocentric - it was in service to myself and was about fulfilling my needs more than the other person’s. I can see with clarity, through the lens of time, that this was not a fully-realized form of love. With time I’ve come to the understanding that being “in love” and holding someone “with love” is less about me, than it is about the other person. That person might be your SO, your bestie, the neighbor across the street, the grocery clerk - or the SP you just banged. I’ve found that when you are in the moment (a skill at which I fail miserably a lot of the time), if you can hold the one you’re beside “with love,” the outcome is always better.

This may seem like a semantic exercise of splitting hairs, the difference between “in love” and “with love.” I have no doubts that many on Perb are holding people in their lives (SPs and others) “with love.” They may be acting kindly, or considerately, or thoughtfully; if they are doing so with an open heart, without a hidden agenda, then I would define this as holding the other person “with love,” because what is love except being kind to others without the need for reciprocity?

These days I do not fear love as I once did. Back then I had a scarcity mentality thinking that there could be only “the one” for me; that I could only love one person and no other; that loving another person was infidelity to the one I was “in love” with. The truth is you can love many people concurrently; and loving more than one person in no way diminishes your love of others. Ask any parent and they will tell you this to be true.

Just today, I brought the SP I visited (not the HE provider I referenced in the other post) a small, unusual, gift, which amused her. We talked, caught up our holidays, and had the most amazing sex we’ve had in all the times we’ve met. The amazing sex wasn’t what I was after, it was just an unintended outcome of me conveying to her how much I appreciated all that she does. I was doing what I would describe as holding her “with love.” The amazing sex arose out of an expression of care without expectations. Would the amazing sex have happened anyways? Hard to say, but looking back it’s hard to see it manifesting if I had not held her with love.

 

[Ty-rst]

[QUOTE="

Just today, I brought the SP I visited (not the HE provider I referenced in the other post) a small, unusual, gift, which amused her. We talked, caught up our holidays, and had the most amazing sex we’ve had in all the times we’ve met. The amazing sex wasn’t what I was after, it was just an unintended outcome of me conveying to her how much I appreciated all that she does. I was doing what I would describe as holding her “with love.” The amazing sex arose out of an expression of care without expectations. Would the amazing sex have happened anyways? Hard to say, but looking back it’s hard to see it manifesting if I had not held her with love.
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t call it love, just basic human decency really.

 

[Harmony-bc]

I just want to chime in, that all my clients hold me with love and that I hold them with love. I attract beautiful generous affectionate souls that are genuinely interested in me. And I hope if you got all those extras off the menu items that you loved her enough to tip her generously 😘

 

[angry anderson]

I just want to chime in, that all my clients hold me with love and that I hold them with love. I attract beautiful generous affectionate souls that are genuinely interested in me. And I hope if you got all those extras off the menu items that you loved her enough to tip her generously 😘

 

[Harmony-bc]

I think holding somebody with love as described in this thread is just caring about fellow people and respecting sex workers as people. Which everybody on the whole planet should do. My regulars are beautiful people. I found the thread to be a bit condescending and trying to get free things from sex workers by being “nice” but I was in a bitchy mood last night. Maybe I’d read it in a different view if I read it again. But it’s long so I’ll just leave my bitchy comments as is lol