Is Harper Destroying Democracy?

[Sonny]

... the NDP was that they were wiling to consider a coalition for the good of the country, the Liberals were not, even though they had roughly the same chances of success on their own at the time.

Both the NDP and Liberals are wanting to win at least a minority in this election.
If either wins a minority, then the other will likely find enough common ground to support and maintain a stable government. Various platform ideas from the the supporter would find its way into legislation.

If the Conservatives wins a minority, then it is possible for the NDP and Liberals to not grant them the ability to govern, since there is not much common ground with the Harperites.
It is possible that the NDP and Liberals may form an actual temporary coalition to govern Canada jointly, with each party having a number of cabinet positions, etc. The arrangement could last a full four year term.
The Conservatives, with a minority, would have no power in the face of a combined NDP+Liberal majority coalition. Expect Harper to resign his seat in Parliament and his position within the Conservative party..
The interesting question of a coalition is what happens at the end of the term... how do the coalition partners distinguish themselves from the other in the next general election.

 

[summerbreeze]

I doubt either right wing party would form a coalition government with the NDP.

You would have mass defection from elected party members, they are supposed to represent the values they campaign on and got elected on.

Not to support those values would be betraying the voters who elected them.

In Canada the MLA's do vote along the party line vs the issue which in the US the elected officials are required to represent. (voter representation)

However that party support is accepted in Canada. Cannot see how they could compromise with a party on the left just to become a governing party.

 

[HankQuinlan]

I doubt either right wing party would form a coalition government with the NDP.

You would have mass defection from elected party members, they are supposed to represent the values they campaign on and got elected on.

Not to support those values would be betraying the voters who elected them.

In Canada the MLA's do vote along the party line vs the issue which in the US the elected officials are required to represent. (voter representation)

However that party support is accepted in Canada. Cannot see how they could compromise with a party on the left just to become a governing party.

Totally disagree. Most Liberal supporters would far prefer to see them team up with the NDP in a minority government -- whichever one is the "winner" -- than to see them support a Harper minority. Polls which have asked for respondents' second choice find that both NDP and Liberal supporters overwhelmingly choose the other of those two. Both parties have said they would not support a Harper government. If the Liberals propped up a Harper government, that would be the absolute end of them at the next election. That is what would piss off voters the most.

And by the way, currently in the US all votes in Congress follow party lines. That is the reason nothing happens in Congress.

 

[sdw]

Totally disagree. Most Liberal supporters would far prefer to see them team up with the NDP in a minority government -- whichever one is the "winner" -- than to see them support a Harper minority. Polls which have asked for respondents' second choice find that both NDP and Liberal supporters overwhelmingly choose the other of those two. Both parties have said they would not support a Harper government. If the Liberals propped up a Harper government, that would be the absolute end of them at the next election. That is what would piss off voters the most.

And by the way, currently in the US all votes in Congress follow party lines. That is the reason nothing happens in Congress.

yep. Nanos asks every night in their 3 day rolling poll which party can you support if your first choice doesn't look like they will form a government.

http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/20151001 Ballot TrackingE.pdf

On Oct 1, If the voter was first choice Conservative, 31% were willing to vote Liberal as a second choice. If the voter was first choice Liberal, 22% were willing to vote Conservative vs 48% being willing to vote NDP as their second choice. If the voter was first choice NDP, 51% were willing to vote Liberal as their second choice.

Angus Reid asked specifically about Strategic Voting in their latest poll. http://angusreid.org/election-2015-october/

The issue of “strategic voting” has been receiving a lot of attention in this (so far) very competitive election campaign. On this subject, we find most (55%) voters will not rule out the possibility of voting strategically, described broadly as “shifting your support from a first choice candidate to another who has the better chance of beating the candidate you don’t want to win.”

The concept is very much an “ABC — Anybody but Conservative” phenomenon in the current context — with both Liberals and New Democrats far more likely than Conservative supporters to consider a strategic vote; indeed, roughly one-in-five of both opposition parties’ supporters say this is something they would “definitely consider doing” and another three-in-ten would broadly consider it.

If current polling holds up, the Conservatives are unable to form a government. It won't be as bad as when Kim Campbell was leader, but it will be very bad. I don't understand what's happening with the NDP, they are bleeding support in Quebec which is now affecting their support in Ontario. Tom Mulcair may be the Audrey McLaughlin for the NDP in this election cycle. Audrey McLaughlin took what Ed Broadbent had built and lost all but 9 seats.

The Liberals have growth potential from both the Conservatives (31%) and the NDP (51%) and if they keep their eyes on the finish line, they probably will form a majority government if Angus Reid has their polling right and 55% of Conservative and NDP voters decide to vote for the party with the best possibility of forming a government. There probably are a LOT of Liberals that are praying that Trudeau the younger doesn't make another stupid public statement.

There is a poll by Leger that backs up what Angus Reid found. Page 9 is the Strategic Voting results. http://leger360.com/admin/upload/publi_pdf/soen20151002.pdf

Just under 70% of Voters want a government that is not lead by Stephen Harper. A large number of them will hold their noses and vote for the party that has the best chance of forming government.

In both the Leger and Angus Reid polling there is an underlying distrust of politicians. The anti-Harper voter doesn't trust the politician of their first choice to do the "right thing" and is prepared to vote for the party that polling indicates has the best chance, rather than taking a chance on their first choice political party forming a coalition with the other non-conservative party.

I think that the vote on C-51 has a lot to do with that, but, it looks like it will be the NDP that is decimated and not the Liberals who voted for C-51.

 

[uncleg]

 

[summerbreeze]

Totally disagree. Most Liberal supporters would far prefer to see them team up with the NDP in a minority government -- whichever one is the "winner" -- than to see them support a Harper minority. Polls which have asked for respondents' second choice find that both NDP and Liberal supporters overwhelmingly choose the other of those two. Both parties have said they would not support a Harper government. If the Liberals propped up a Harper government, that would be the absolute end of them at the next election. That is what would piss off voters the most.

And by the way, currently in the US all votes in Congress follow party lines. That is the reason nothing happens in Congress.

not advocating liberals support conservatives, not an either or situation

 

[westwoody]

Easy choice for me, the NDP candidate dropped out. Liberal is the only choice.

There is a Green but my priority is dethroning Harper.

 

[sdw]

Well Hell has frozen over:

Conrad Black has written an article saying Justin Trudeau IS ready. Not only that, but he predicts the Liberals winning, the Conservatives in second place and the NDP in third place.
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ll-isnt-ready-but-it-turns-out-trudeau-may-be

a snippet:

Mulcair has been strong in Parliament and is perfectly presentable in person, but on the hustings he has seemed flaccid, elderly and unstylishly hirsute. Barring an astonishing turn in the next two weeks, the Conservatives and NDP will both slip significantly from their performance in 2011. Regardless of which party ends up with the most seats, the big winner will be Trudeau, who seems likely at least to triple the Liberal parliamentary contingent. Four years ago, there was rampant speculation about whether the federal Liberal party would survive, rather than fold into the NDP with the centrist and right-of-centre Liberals gravitating to the Conservatives. Now, the NDP seems to be retreating very gradually back to a third party just outside the federal mainstream.

What seems to be shaping up is a contest between comfort with the executive competence of Harper and a rising confidence that Trudeau is not just a pretty face with famous and controversial parents. The pompous Conservative advertising about “Justin’s not ready” has been largely debunked and Trudeau is carrying the fight to Harper on several issues. He has been exposing the scandalous enfeeblement of the Canadian Armed Forces despite all Harper’s King Lear fist-shaking at Russian President Vladimir Putin and others. Both opposition leaders have stuck to their guns against Harper’s repressive endorsement of more and longer and harsher imprisonment, and Trudeau has rather courageously attacked the practice of revocation of citizenship, even for terrorists.

An argument can be made for revoking the citizenship of those who have violated the oath they took in becoming citizens, but expelling people could prove a totalitarian measure and Trudeau and Mulcair are right to oppose it. Here, as with his absurdly draconian crime bill and his Orwellian security bill (C-51), Harper’s disregard for human rights is worrisome. Nor should Harper get away with his mistaken claim that Canada is the leading economic performer of the G-7. No one can complain that the U.S. has a higher economic growth rate after it has doubled the national debt in seven years to buy a pallid recovery. But Germany, and even the United Kingdom, have better unemployment levels and economic growth rates than Canada, a country which is now, unlike other G-7 nations, in a recession.

 

[westwoody]

Lord Conrad has a point: Harper constantly repeats the exact same bullshit, factually incorrect out and out misleading crap.

Harper has an even sensible delivery that appeals to his demographic. As long as he sounds statesmanlike and composed his supporters ignore the actual content. They vote for the image instead.

Harper lies about so many things. Instead of responding to accusations of lying he just repeats them.

There was an excellent Frontline about Dick Cheney doing the same thing Re the Iraq war. Cheney would go on a talk show and spout a load of BS. The host would show it all to be wrong. Cheney would adamantly stick to his talking points no matter what. His evidence and conclusions would be shown to be factually incorrect. But a day later on another interview he would start again with the same lines.
Frontline followed him over three or four different interviews in as many days. Always the same story, he ignored any outside evidence or opinion that contradicted his own.
So much like Harper, maybe Harper is adopting the same strategy?
Note that a few Tory candidates have refused to appear at all candidate debates. They cannot defend party policy or argue against alternatives. The only strategy they have is to repeat party dogma over and over, ignoring the voters who disagree.

 

[sdw]

There are many Conservative candidates that don't participate in public debate because they can't tie their own shoelaces. The Conservatives have had difficulty replacing the MPs that fled the party. 46 of the 166 Conservative MPs decided not to run with Harper in the Leadership. So, they have had to recruit people that think coffee mugs are urinals.

A few predictions, I know it's a little soon with 2 weeks to go:

The Green Party will elect nobody.
The Trudeau Liberals will enjoy a majority government.
The Mulcair NDP will be in a tie or only slightly ahead of the Bloc.
The sans Harper Conservatives will be in fourth place

The reason is that the average Canadian Voter wants Harper gone. They have decided that the Liberals are the party to accomplish that.

That makes the Liberal and NDP Sannich - Gulf Islands vote that went to Elizabeth May in 2011 the property of Liberal Tim Kane and sets up an interesting race between Liberal Tim Kane and Conservative Robert Boyd.

In Quebec the love affair with the NDP is over. The Bloc will get back most of the vote that they lost in 2011, the Liberals will carve off some vote because Quebec knows that it wants a few cabinet ministers and the NDP will be decimated in Quebec.

In Ontario the ABH movement is very strong. Since the Liberals look to be the winners, Ontario is going to hold it's collective nose and vote Liberal in the Urban ridings. The Rural ridings will probably remain Conservative.

Atlantic Canada is Liberal, possibly all of the seats.

Manitoba and Saskatchewan are going to lean Liberal, especially in the Urban ridings.

Alberta is going to remain Conservative with a surprising number of Liberals in Edmonton.

BC is a three way split between the Liberals, NDP and Conservatives. Possibly a slight Liberal lead.

 

[westwoody]

Quebec was in a "Anybody but Liberal" mood last election. Quebec did not vote for the NDP, they voted against the Liberals.
Mulcair has lost it all with the niqab issue.

A couple of PC candidates here in MB have sunk themselves over the non participation in debates. Another, Joyce Bateman, tried to debate and made a complete ass of herself. To see she could not tie her own shoelaces is too kind! Listening to her was painful! After hearing her it is obvious why the other PCs hide from debates.

 

[PierreCoeur]

Well Hell has frozen over:

Conrad Black has written an article saying Justin Trudeau IS ready. Not only that, but he predicts the Liberals winning, the Conservatives in second place and the NDP in third place.
:

Great . . . Conrad Black is an idiot criminal. We need to thank him for giving Justin the kiss of death. Geezus.

 

[badbadboy]

Trans Pacific Partnership

WTF?

On the verge of signing the largest trade deal in history prior to this election is just plain wrong.

If anything, this should piss of voters just because Harper is trying to get the deal closed.

No Party will be bound by this agreement is what I a led to believe.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trans-pacific-partnership-near-deal-1.3256151

 

[westwoody]

Trans Pacific is a terrible deal from what little anyone can find out.

Almost total secrecy about the negotiations, how is that open government? You know, the open government that was a Harper promise way back when?

 

[sdw]

Trans Pacific is a terrible deal from what little anyone can find out.

Almost total secrecy about the negotiations, how is that open government? You know, the open government that was a Harper promise way back when?

Harper has already admitted that the Auto Sector won't like what he has already given away, and the Dairy Farmers aren't going to like the Anzac accent that Butter and Cheese are about to get.

Fluid Milk is only a small % of where a Dairy Farmer gets their income. Milk is tested on delivery for it's fat content and it's the fat that makes the high value butter, cheese and ice cream.

We won't be seeing large amounts of American Fluid Milk in our stores because NAFTA says that we don't have to accept a product with the amount of subsidy that American Milk has. The cross border shoppers will love the new agreement because Milk, Butter, Cheese and Ice Cream won't have a duty no matter how much you bring across.

 

[Bridge]

I've now been to a few all candidates meetings where the PC was a no-show and I've heard of many other examples. In my book that is sticking your digit at the voters. I hope that top down strategy of not going to these meetings so that your voice won't deviate from the party mantra comes back to burn them on polling day.

 

[Melissa Lane]

" nice hair though " ......that will not be the reason I choose Liberal . But when you see how much money is spent on such silly ads , it sure does not encourage me to vote for Harper.

 

[hornygandalf]

Harper has already admitted that the Auto Sector won't like what he has already given away, and the Dairy Farmers aren't going to like the Anzac accent that Butter and Cheese are about to get.

Fluid Milk is only a small % of where a Dairy Farmer gets their income. Milk is tested on delivery for it's fat content and it's the fat that makes the high value butter, cheese and ice cream.

We won't be seeing large amounts of American Fluid Milk in our stores because NAFTA says that we don't have to accept a product with the amount of subsidy that American Milk has. The cross border shoppers will love the new agreement because Milk, Butter, Cheese and Ice Cream won't have a duty no matter how much you bring across.

Wait until you see the impact that it has on the internet... this is a deal that no government will be able to exit from for 30(?) years without it costing the country billions and billions, and it has been negotiated by corporate lobbyists. This is ursurping the democratic rights of Canadians (and all the other nationalities involved) as we barrel merrily along into a new feudal system where we are all beholden to our corporate masters. Parliament and democracy will basically be history in terms of having any real power or say. Sovereignty will be owned by the corporations.

 

[sdw]

Well, now we know. If you are a hedge fund manager, you love, love the TPP. If you are a Real Estate Broker or a Property Developer, you love love the TPP. If you are working in the Auto sector, on a Dairy Farm or in a Dairy Processor or in a Canadian Genetic Pharmaceutical Producer - you are soon to be unemployed.

Huge tracts of land are about to become available. Some of it will require some cleanup of course, after all, there used to be an auto parts manufacturer on it. But just think of all that pristine land that used to be Dairy Farms. Those lovely old barns that will make ideal farmer's markets, those fenced fields that are just perfect for little boutique gated communities of a hundred homes.

Too bad about the collapse of real estate prices as all that land became available, too bad that it simply isn't efficient to have small builders building one home at a time. Meritage Homes Corporation, Beazer Homes USA and the Ryland Group have said that they "may consider" hiring Canadian workers if they are "price competitive" with their current international work force.

But Hey! Canada has found a place to send all of those unneeded Dairy Cows. They,ll make great Suchi and maybe even get Asians to start eating Beef.

Harper will be on TV in about half an hour to explain how the TPP isn't really all that bad and how Ed Fast served the Conservatives loyal donors in a truly admirable fashion.

Harper tells us that the Dairy industry will get 4.3 Billion dollars to aid in the windup of a way of life. We are promised that we will get various "releases" over the next few days to "clarify" the effect of the TPP.

 

[morementum]

He hasn't done anything but create accountability. Mystery extreme agenda funding groups can no longer hide behind a veil and create economic havoc for Canadians. No longer can many such extreme practices meant to protect those who don't wish to contribute at all but demand everything.

He has done nothing more than annoy those who simply have no intention of contributing.