Interesting article EV Cars in cold weather

badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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So the Tesla Model 3 set a new record of cross the USA in just over 50 hours. That's the good news, the bad news is they had to turn off the heat to save battery life for the car. The team wore 3 sets of clothes and bought blankets to survive the cold weather from LAX to NYC.

Interesting to note is how the distance diminishes in Canada's cold. Temps of -5 C deplete the battery to a range of about 50 km on Nissan's LEAF.

http://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/314908
 

Avery

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Jul 7, 2003
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I've always believed that all-electric cars would not be practical in a cold weather climate. Anyone with a basic knowledge of electrochemistry knows that the output of any battery declines rapidly with declining temperatures. The only way to propel a vehicle greater distances on a single charge is increasing the size and capacity of the battery. However,the increased mass of the battery would, in turn, require higher output to propel the vehicle, thereby negating any potential gain.

We're a long way from all-electric vehicles that can travel long distances in all weather conditions on a single charge.
 

sybian

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Dec 23, 2014
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I know at -35 ...if I don't trickle charge my dozens of batteries on my ranch.....it turns into thousands lost in batteries.
They also have less of a life ,even if they survive.
I learned a very expensive lesson a few years back in a -30 ,4 week outflow, so now if a new piece of equipment shows up, a deep cycle battery purchase, also gets a trickle charger added onto it.
 

FreeG

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Dec 25, 2015
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Electric vehicles certainly won't take over every niche or area. With the majority of people living within ~50km of work and the majority doing such commutes, the temperature issues are not insurmountable. But for rural communities, extra-long commutes, or all-day driving jobs, electric may never be the best or even a remotely viable choice. Doesn't mean "electric vehicles suck", it just means that, like choosing between a sedan and a pickup truck, those choices will remain.

Personally, I'd get an electric car in a heart-beat if I could afford one, they're still too expensive however. And for the things I like to do on the weekend, I'd still want a reliable gas/diesel 4x4.

The range benefit/weight penalty for bigger batteries doesn't cancel out, its just not a linear correlation. But, yes, you will eventually reach a weight & volume limit for a given size vehicle. The Tesla 3 can only accept a certain sized battery before you lose trunk space or have to increase the wheelbase. Battery technology is improving but haven't seen the prompt-jump in weight-efficiency last seen when Li-Ion was developed (for small-scale uses like phones & cars; further development in large-scale uses like community energy storage continues).
 

Har-Don

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Piece of cake. This guy already solved it. Decaying radiactive isotopes for everyone!

 

MissingOne

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consider how battery contents are mined....
OK, I'll take a crack at considering how they're mined. As to the economics of it, I gave up trying to predict commodity markets 30 years ago.

Most lithium is extracted from saline brines in salars. The small number of companies that do it have historically been almost like a little cartel, and they keep prices high. That's one reason for expensive batteries. However, now we're starting to see big mining companies and innovative little junior companies get into the market. The innovators are finding ways to do the extraction with fewer environmental consequences, and may help to bring lithium prices down.

Copper and cobalt come from conventional mines, mostly open pits in the case of copper. We're approaching a supply shortage for copper, and we're going to need lots of big new mines as electrification of transportation and other industries continues. The green movement is great for mining companies! I'm sure that the environmentalists among us cheer that thought fervently.

The rare earths that are needed are almost all mined in China. North America and indeed the rest of the world produce very little of these and the Chinese want to keep it that way, as these are strategic materials. They use their pricing power to keep other producers out of the market, and if that doesn't work, they buy out the competition.
 

badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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I've always believed that all-electric cars would not be practical in a cold weather climate. Anyone with a basic knowledge of electrochemistry knows that the output of any battery declines rapidly with declining temperatures. The only way to propel a vehicle greater distances on a single charge is increasing the size and capacity of the battery. However,the increased mass of the battery would, in turn, require higher output to propel the vehicle, thereby negating any potential gain.

We're a long way from all-electric vehicles that can travel long distances in all weather conditions on a single charge.
The Li Ion cell technology although quite good for most smaller electronic applications doesn't lend itself to long distance driving especially in the winter. Imagine a 10 hour drive up Hwy 93 in the winter without heat? The distance driven in the cold could put drivers at risk if they became stranded on the highway. Besides the infrastructure isn't even remotely in place except in the GVRD.

My bet is hydrogen fuel cells becomes a better alternative to EV. They don't take 30+ minutes to get a quick charge and hydrogen is easily distributed in a liquid format. Emmision free and the technology is already in place.
 

MissingOne

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... My bet is hydrogen fuel cells becomes a better alternative to EV. ...
I don't know much about the fuel cell technology. I did read that Mercedes built a hydrogen-powered vehicle a few years ago, but it was panned by the greens because the process of acquiring and storing the hydrogen generated more greenhouse gases than were saved by not burning gasoline in the car.
 

sybian

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Dec 23, 2014
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I don't know much about the fuel cell technology. I did read that Mercedes built a hydrogen-powered vehicle a few years ago, but it was panned by the greens because the process of acquiring and storing the hydrogen generated more greenhouse gases than were saved by not burning gasoline in the car.
Hydrogen is the most plentiful thing in the universe, and emits almost no pollution.....I think the problem was compressing it.
 

Sphubby

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Jan 21, 2015
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I think the issue with hydrogen is being able to produce it without a carbon footprint and also to use less energy to make than it provides. I think with current technologies are a Zero sum proposition. I am hopeful this will change in the future.

Also it always amuses me talking to some people that have electric cars. They talk about how clean it is. Hate to pop your bubble but if you plug it into the grid to charge where do you think that energy is coming from as you charge your car??? Some of it might be from renewable solar or wind energy but some is from natural gas run generators, coal plants and other carbon footprint type generation.

Don't get me wrong, its the future and I am all good about it but it won't be the green non-carbon footprint transportation that we all want until you have a solar panel on the roof of your garage that charges your car after you get home, then you will have a green mode of transport other than the original carbon footprint left from the manufacture of the panels and car itself.

Just my opinion for whats its worth
 

wetnose

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Mar 23, 2003
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Demand is really picking up for electric buses in other parts of the world:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...t-nevada-lithium-rush-to-fuel-the-new-economy


The vehicles are more expensive than ones that run on diesel or natural gas, but only initially. After three to five years, “customers save $50,000 to $75,000 per year per bus on fuel and maintenance,” says Macy Neshati, senior VP for heavy industries. “The adoption curve for municipalities is really turning steep. Up and down California, it’s lighting up. The mayor of Albuquerque got involved as soon as he saw the numbers.”
 

FreeG

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Dec 25, 2015
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I think the issue with hydrogen is being able to produce it without a carbon footprint and also to use less energy to make than it provides. I think with current technologies are a Zero sum proposition. I am hopeful this will change in the future.

Also it always amuses me talking to some people that have electric cars. They talk about how clean it is. Hate to pop your bubble but if you plug it into the grid to charge where do you think that energy is coming from as you charge your car??? Some of it might be from renewable solar or wind energy but some is from natural gas run generators, coal plants and other carbon footprint type generation.

Don't get me wrong, its the future and I am all good about it but it won't be the green non-carbon footprint transportation that we all want until you have a solar panel on the roof of your garage that charges your car after you get home, then you will have a green mode of transport other than the original carbon footprint left from the manufacture of the panels and car itself.

Just my opinion for whats its worth
On hydrogen: other issues include
1. well-to-wheel efficiency. Summary: horrible. It takes energy to product the clean water prior to electrolysis, takes energy to electrolyze, takes energy to compress/store (or liquefy, if that's your thing), and fuel cells are at best 60% efficient. If you're using H2 in a converted ICE, its probably 30% (a little better than gasoline, not sure how much). So you multiply those efficiencies together and its abysmal - 15% or so, depending on assumptions. Batteries are 90+% right off the bat; transmission lines about 95%, so you apply that to hydro and its 80%. Apply to a fossil-fuel plant, and well-to-wheel is about 80% of the powerplant's efficiency. Not bad and way better than gas or H2.
2. Transportation & storage - H2 is more prevalent to leak (its the smallest molecule, after all!), it embrittles metal under stress (ie, when the tanks/pipes are pressurized!), it embrittles O-rings. One cannot assume that NG pipelines & tanks can be easily converted w/o loss of H2 and higher maintenance costs.
3. Lifetime costs - current fuel-cells have cycle limits, just like batteries. Don't know the replacement costs but w/o lots of long-term testing, I don't think anyone does. Batteries have pretty extensive history of operations & testing, so their end-of-life performance and replacement costs are easier to factor.
4. Fuel cells - most current low-temp models (that would be appropriate for cars) use platinum as the catalyst. Pricey metal to begin with; now see what the price does if demand were to increase with more fuel cell cars (tho industry would likely come up with alternatives as they often do)
5. Water demand - H2 can come from methane or water. Methane is a no-go if you care about CO2, so you have to use water. Pure water. Lots of it. Which, if you've read the news, isn't always in abundant supply near cities or at all times of the year! There's always tension in some societies between growing food and growing material for fuel (ethanol). And there's tension between water users - farmers vs people who like green lawns. Now add in people who will want water to make fuel to drive their cars/trucks.

On the 'cleanliness' of batteries - your comment on GHG's due to charging at night is often cited but I think its wrong for the following reasons:
1. Most grids have nuclear & coal as baseload - while they operate, they operate at 100% 24/7. Varying loads are handled by hydro, then various types of NG plants as demand further decreases. Charging millions of cars at night doesn't increase coal power plant production (which as I said, if operating, is already at 100%), it would likely come from increased output of NG power plants, or more accurately, LESS decrease in power output of NG plants from their day-time peaks (because they otherwise cycle down at night and cycle up in the day) or maybe hydro.
2. Power plants operate most efficiently at 100%. So even tho the total demand on NG would be higher if everyone's charging at night, GHG/KwH is less as the plant operates at a higher output.
3. GHG emissions from NG plants is far less than ICE cars. From efficiency alone, a NG plant is about 3x's as efficient (close to 60% for more advanced plants compared to 20% at best for a car).
4. So, quick & dirty math - electric cars, per mile/kwh/etc, are doing to result in at most 1/3 emissions compared to ICE car (or less depending on the power source for charging, tho that's hard to reliably predict).
 
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