if you could rewrite canadian laws on prostitution what would you do

[sevenofnine]

you know i think for me it comes down to two things

i think the government has a duty to protect us from ourself
and also stop us from making some grand spectical of this what we call prostitution

then i think, what two people agree to do what two adult people agree on behind closed doors is nobodies busniness,

i would out law make illegal street walkers massage parlors with happy endings brothels
there would be severe penalties for anyone living off the avails except for the lady herself, sorry but i hate pimps and lazy useless boyfriends who make the girl go out to work while there while there just to lazy.

but the lady herself its her choice, and if she comes to some agreement with a client, ok to both of them i don't think any one should interfere,
it actualy happens all the time in every phase of life in every part of life people are coming to agreements social business whatever
just keep it off the streets,
i have the right to walk down the street and not be accosted by anyone a pan handler an isurance sales men or a streetwalker

and as far as brothels and red light districts, i kind of waver on that but i would say no,
i think sex is nice enjoyable part of life, but when you start selling it like porn marketing it like porn

you kind of loose something

just my thoughts

 

[susi]

i would remove all criminal code provisions related to prostitution and allow labour law and other criminal code provisions to protect people. why do we need 2 sets of laws to govern violence against people? unlawful confinement, assault, human trafficking are all illegal. sexual interference of a youth, illegal.

no one in vancouver supports red light districts. not workers, not police. i personally think it would be cool but it's not the way canadians do things, dancing girls in windows are not in our future according to the way things are playing out.

street sex work (communication in public) is illegal now. that is why those women are dying. women work on the street becuase there are not enough jobs inside in brothels. we need indoor jobs. i am in full support of people operating businesses that provide safe working environments for workers, they are not all "pimps". not every worker can work independently and when you start off in this business its nice to be able to work somewhere so you can ask questions and learn the ropes.

7of 9, workers are only on street because society closed the brothels. before they began trying to "protect us" by criminalizing us, there were no workers on the street. a worker on the street would be viewed as needing help, not as a criminal. should insurance be illegal? should we arrest all insurance sales men? what you are saying, especially as a sex consumer, is full of contradiction. are you saying you think that criminal laws about your sexual needs would deter you from seeking sex?

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

I would try keeping it in doors and through the use of business licenses or things of that nature, insure escorts were getting tested regularly and if necessary have a card with only their picture on it, stating when they were last tested and hope that every john ask to see this card. I would also insure the their place of work has adequate safeguards to protect escorts should someone show up intoxicated, or suddenly become violent.

I would try to tax the services in some manner.

I would provide some forum of agency to investigate any complaints with respect to violence against escorts, coercion, or forcing minors to participate in prostitution. These would all carry serious sentences.

There's probably a couple of other issues I'd ponder, but those would be the main one's.

In many ways the current laws are similar to the drug laws and if we haven't learned anything over the last 75 years we should at least know that prohibition doesn't work.

 

[Monet]

protect the women.

 

[ThisEndUp]

For those sp's being forced (by pimps, or the slave trade), rehab and a chance at a new life

For those forcing them: 25 years hard labour in the far north, go ahead escape, poilar bears need to eat

For those supporting the the pimps/slavers: 25 years in regular prison (gotta fill Harpers new ones he?)

 

[susi]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

unless you make mandatory testing mandatory for all citizens, it will not help in disease prevention and putting sp's in the situation of being tested when other citizen's are not, is discriminatory. i will never yield to mandatory testing....think about men? would you? if the government suddenly decided this private and personal information about every citizen should be made public and madatory disclosure was the way would you sumit? your children, wives, parents....?

 

[vancity_cowboy]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

unless you make mandatory testing mandatory for all citizens, it will not help in disease prevention and putting sp's in the situation of being tested when other citizen's are not, is discriminatory. i will never yield to mandatory testing....think about men? would you? if the government suddenly decided this private and personal information about every citizen should be made public and madatory disclosure was the way would you sumit? your children, wives, parents....?

i generally agree with you susi, but i draw the line at your objections to mandatory testing for the following reasons:
1) other countries require it, and nobody seems to mind
2) there are plenty of jobs that do require testing of various types (including physical) in order to be allowed to practise the profession. if what you claim is true, that escorts should be treated by the normal rules of society, then mandatory testing for escorting should be one of those rules. it will remove one of the objections that most 'civvies' have about escorting, if nothing else

cheers

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

unless you make mandatory testing mandatory for all citizens, it will not help in disease prevention and putting sp's in the situation of being tested when other citizen's are not, is discriminatory. i will never yield to mandatory testing....think about men? would you? if the government suddenly decided this private and personal information about every citizen should be made public and madatory disclosure was the way would you sumit? your children, wives, parents....?

Your reponse was a little over the deep end.

I did suggest it be annoymous with only one's picture being shown, no names or dates.

And I find this a strange response when virtually every woman I see claims they've been tested. Obviously you've just informed the board that that's a bunch of b.s.

I'll keep that in mind next time I think about whether or not I want to see an escort.

That aside my intent wasn't to humilate or degrade SP's rather it was an attempt to ensure their health, and the health of the community at large.

Btw, I know lots of people in the health community who require testing prior to becoming employed. Just a couple of days ago someone I know told me his girlfriend had to get tested for a job and it turned out she has TB and although she's not happy to have found this out, at least now it can be addressed.

You may also want to keep in mind that this is a hypothetical discussion we're involved in.

 

[AA_Train]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

unless you make mandatory testing mandatory for all citizens, it will not help in disease prevention and putting sp's in the situation of being tested when other citizen's are not, is discriminatory. i will never yield to mandatory testing....think about men? would you? if the government suddenly decided this private and personal information about every citizen should be made public and madatory disclosure was the way would you sumit? your children, wives, parents....?

I disagree. Employers and independent contractors in other businesses have to set up safeguards for their clients so for SPs it should be no different. I think they should do it along similar guidelines as the porn industry, doing it a regular intervals (I'd say every 30-90 days) in order for them to legally work.

You are also assuming that these ladies would not have unprotected sex in their personal lives. They would be just as likely to catch anything from their partners in the same manner as you described in your post.

Like it or not, a sex worker is doing a very personal thing as a business. In order to operate safely and effectively, their personal health would have to come under scrutiny of a governing body. I do agree that it would be problematic and somewhat costly to enforce effectively and some ladies could go beyond the required testing time and still work and be able to hide some of the income they would be earning "illegally." Conversely, they would have much more limited protection under such legislation, as they would not be adhering to it. It would be like driving a car without any insurance.

 

[Tugela]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

unless you make mandatory testing mandatory for all citizens, it will not help in disease prevention and putting sp's in the situation of being tested when other citizen's are not, is discriminatory. i will never yield to mandatory testing....think about men? would you? if the government suddenly decided this private and personal information about every citizen should be made public and madatory disclosure was the way would you sumit? your children, wives, parents....?

Actually, we are halfway there allready with the faux-laws surrounding HIV and consent. It is a small step to extend the concept to all diseases that can be readily transmitted, and from there to require a regulatory framework to monitor such things.

I think that if they made prositution legal they would likely require some sort of testing, it would fall under workplace safety/product safety regulations. The workers themselves would be the ones that have to be tested since they are the ones providing the service, and they are the ones acting as nodes of transmission once infected. I think if government did put that sort of regulation in place, they would also require that records regarding the identity of clients be retained for a period, with a requirement to notify all of them in case of infection. Even if legalized the industry would still be heavily regulated by government as a way of controlling and restricting it (since it is an activity they find undesireable).

I am not sure that the clients even want the industry fully legalized since it potentially will remove the veil of secrecy that they enjoy now. From the clients point of view it would be better if the industry operated in a sort of grey area. Workers on the other hand would probably benefit from regulation if they are professionals. I think most people (except perhaps the SWs and their clients) would probably be happy if they allowed the baudy house law to fall away, narrowed the avails law, and kept the communication law. That would eliminate the things that affect them negatively and beyond that working in the shadows is something they might actually want.

I don't think that legalization is going to eliminate the street trade. The men and women who work there are opportunistic/survival-SPs mostly, and those are probably going to work sporadically and are not going to be paying much attention to regulations. Likewise for the bulk of the Backpage/Craigs List types.

 

[Dgodus]

let me just say that mandatory testing and "cards" with our medical status are illegal and useless. where do workers get sti's? pooners. where do pooner's get it?their wives who get it from the mail man....

Doesn't matter where you get it from. If a sex worker gets it, he/she will more than likely pass it along to alot more people than a pooner will. Shouldn't need to be something the pooner needs to see, attach it to a license the gov't issues. Pretty simple. As has been said already, people in other jobs need to get tested for various things, physicals, drug testing, etc... Porn stars are required to have testing are they not? Hell I'd even submit to a gov't license to poon if it made you feel better, attach std testing to that as well for all I care.

Besides where do you think pooners get sti's from? Escorts. Personally I came out clean after the last time I was having sex with civilians. Now I just have sex with sp's, if I pick something up, that's where it came from.

 

[susi]

good lord men, of course we all get tested, but it is a personal and private thing, not something that should be forced on workers. condom use is as far as occupational health and safety should be taken. like they have done in new zealand.

re getting sti's from an escort. wear a condom, wash thouroughly immediatly after and you will not get anything. this is the point. the only thing that mandatory testing serves is for pooners to gain access to more unprotected services at the expense of the rights of sp's.

i am not mad, i hope you guys will understand our perspective is all and as you all know i am pretty passionate about all this
love susie

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Trying to get the thread back on line... There does need to be some legal balancing to be done because sex work is not like most other jobs. We do not want a situation to evolve where any unemployed person must first try to obtain work at brothels before they can qualify for EI or other social benefits. The legal framework must protect those that choose to do sex work, but not get so loose that on cannot obtain benefits because one is capable of doing sex work but do not wish to do so.

Shall we set that as the far limit of how liberal we want the prostitution laws to get?

good point. every piece of liberalizing legislation that i've seen in my life has had INCREDIBLE unforseen circumstances, often leading to totally unintended behaviour on the part of scumbags circumventing the laws

by all means, let's get reasonable sex worker laws, but let's move deliberately with plenty of discussion and thought aforehand before we change the laws willy-nilly and end up worse than we are now

 

[Tugela]

re getting sti's from an escort. wear a condom, wash thouroughly immediatly after and you will not get anything. this is the point. the only thing that mandatory testing serves is for pooners to gain access to more unprotected services at the expense of the rights of sp's.

You misunderstand. Testing is about risk management, accountability and liability. If legalized then someone who was licensed what have to follow the same health and saftey rules as everyone else in any other business, and part of that is ensuring that the provider is healthy. I don't think there should be a requirement for the information to be publically available for all to see, but the licensing body certainly should know. And the license should be displayed at the place of work, like any other business.

Setting up a system like that would not require disclosure of private information, only that the provider has a current up to date license. Make falsifying or using an outdate license a criminal offence, that would weed out the outlaw providers.

 

[bcneil]

Mandatory testing.......no.

Almost all girls will get tested.....maybe some would like that to be private.
Just go to the clinic like any other women.

Mandatory means what? She has to get some forms filled out.
Everyone in the clinic is made aware she is a prostitute.
Her family physician is made aware of her job?

I get tested myself all the time....however dont think I would like it, if I had some sort of mandatory pooning testing.
Where I have to get tested each 3 months as a registered pooner.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Mandatory means what? She has to get some forms filled out.
Everyone in the clinic is made aware she is a prostitute.
Her family physician is made aware of her job?

not at all. i've had blood tests administered to me by nurses that work for insurance companies right at my place of work. i've also had them administered to me in a home office at an insurance company's nurse's home

the province could licence special nurses that administered solely to escorts right at their place of work (remember those indoor places of work that susi was talking about?). the certificates would be good for 90 days, and could have a special page attached to them that had the certificate number, a photograph of the escort, the date of testing and the results of the test. if the escort did not have a valid certificate, she couldn't ply her trade in a valid indoor place of work. it could be required that pooners could be shown, if they wished, the special page of the certificate that didn't have any personal information on it except for the anonymous photo

i see no reason why this couldn't work nor any reason that it would compromise anybody's privacy. this is the way it works in holland for example, and has done for many decades

 

[Pantherdash]

you know i think for me it comes down to two things

i think the government has a duty to protect us from ourself
and also stop us from making some grand spectical of this what we call prostitution

then i think, what two people agree to do what two adult people agree on behind closed doors is nobodies busniness,

i would out law make illegal street walkers massage parlors with happy endings brothels
there would be severe penalties for anyone living off the avails except for the lady herself, sorry but i hate pimps and lazy useless boyfriends who make the girl go out to work while there while there just to lazy.

but the lady herself its her choice, and if she comes to some agreement with a client, ok to both of them i don't think any one should interfere,
it actualy happens all the time in every phase of life in every part of life people are coming to agreements social business whatever
just keep it off the streets,
i have the right to walk down the street and not be accosted by anyone a pan handler an isurance sales men or a streetwalker

and as far as brothels and red light districts, i kind of waver on that but i would say no,
i think sex is nice enjoyable part of life, but when you start selling it like porn marketing it like porn

you kind of loose something

just my thoughts

What you are proposing is the Nordic Model, laws enacted by the elected feminazis in countries like Sweden. It doesn't work and actually causes much more harm than good. Prostitution will always be around and with severe measures like these you just drive it further underground, beyond the scope of the police and public health officials.

Panther

 

[sevenofnine]

susi
street walkers are only there because they have no brothels to work in
kind of disagree,
many women work from there home or rent or buy a place and use it for that purpose

street walkers are there i think because they can't get there act together they have drug issues ore whatever,
but for whatever reason they can't get organized to work out of there home, or buy a place, and work out of there or work out of some massage parlor

maybe its because there part time they only go out there when the rent is due or whatever,

and me personally i just want to go about my day, i don't want a panhandler stopping me or an insurance sales men or a street walker, im going some where don't bug me,
and seriously, your living on a street you or any one else do they want a stroll there,

in calgary its been an issue for years strolls in residential areas next to elementary schools next to seniors homes and residences
i used to walk to work by a stroll like thirty years ago. don't get me wrong some nice girls i would buy hot chocolate for one on a cold winter day
i wasn't in this hobby way back then but talked to the girls as i went to and from work,
some underage, seriously underage some strung out on booze or drugs,
and some just nasty bitches that want to fight with other girls me, or any one,
you want that in front of your house. or walk through that with your young kid,

i think you force a women off the street and you make it so living of the avails illegal with major penailties for any one but her,
so you don't have pimps in the background,
i used to see very young girls on that stroll and they tended to have a boy sitting some where in a car or hiding in a back ally somewhere,
and i thought what kind of fucking shit was that she is too young to inmature and she is just supporting her useless boyfriend
i felt like getting a fucking baseball bat to this guy.

but years latter, i see older more mature women we email a few times, we agree to get together,

i kind of think that the buying and selling of sex is not the ideal situation but nothing is perfect in this world
it happens i have enjoyed the services of a women in particular for eight years,
not proud of it, but well we have worked it out,