HST - how are you planning to vote?

[Cock Throppled]

I think the expensive propaganda campaign, outright lying, handout cheques, and the confusing question and instructions for voting for the HST will probably win the day and we'll be stuck with the HST forever.

If Europe is any guide we'll then have an ever - creeping HST (Greece, which is in great financial shape currently has a 23% rate). The countries with the highest rates of VAT are the ones in the worst financial condition.

We'll eventually have an HST applied to EVERYTHING - food included - at differing rates. There will be the highest rate for most things, then reduced HST's for food, transportation, some medical appliances, etc. Because there is so much lost revenue from non-compliance there are also ever-more intrusive and expensive requirements on businesses.

And all those decisions will be made by Ottawa, since we sold out our right to determine tax policy forever for a lousy $1.6 billion to try to make the BC liberal financial wizards look better. What a disaster in the making. Instead of defeating the HST and correcting the deficiencies of the PST/GST, we fuck ourselves forever.

At least we'll have the comfort of knowing David Hahn will be comfortable in his retirement.

 

[DavidMR]

One restaurant? We're talking about a net increase of 2 billion and 24,000 jobs to the economy with entire industries lobbying to not return to the GST/PST.

First round out the BC Govt tried peddling laughably insincere guesstimates from a Univ of Calgary economist who claimed, with an apparently straight face, that the HST would result in well over 100,000 more jobs in the BC economy.

This year the Dinning panel, using material from an economic consulting company in Toronto, came up with the more believable estimate of 24,000 jobs, ... over TEN YEARS!

Herein lies a problem, and it's one that Jim Sinclair of the BC Federation of Labour noted in a column the other day. Over the past thirty years the average number of new jobs in BC is about 30,000 a year. So 24,000 over ten years, against an expected 300,000 over that period, isn't going to be measurable one way or the other.

It's to be expected. The cost savings to business are in most cases marginal, construction being an exception. You just cannot expect some huge wave of additional business investment in plant and equipment on that basis. A very modest, marginal increase is what you can expect, and that assumes that price effects of charging the HST on new items, like restaurant meals, doesn't overwhelm the impact of cost savings.

People have become zealous defenders of the HST because it's become a political symbol for them, a must win for the business and professional communities.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Very well put DavidMR. Most of the benefits of HST taxation are theoretical.

In practice it is usually a disaster and a major stimulator of underground economies.

A lot of people boosting it and voting to keep it are going to rue the day years from now, but it will be too late. This was our one chance to try to craft a newer, better BC-controlled taxation policy and we'll probably blow it by being stupid enough to be bought with our own money.

 

[aznboi9]

This year the Dinning panel, using material from an economic consulting company in Toronto, came up with the more believable estimate of 24,000 jobs, ... over TEN YEARS!

Herein lies a problem, and it's one that Jim Sinclair of the BC Federation of Labour noted in a column the other day. Over the past thirty years the average number of new jobs in BC is about 30,000 a year. So 24,000 over ten years, against an expected 300,000 over that period, isn't going to be measurable one way or the other.

It's 24,000 jobs over nine years. So that's 24,000 against 270,000, or an increase of 8.8%. That actually IS a significant difference.

You know, I'm glad that you brought up Jim Sinclair though. I had the chance to listen to him on the Bill Good Show a couple of weeks ago as he presented his argument for voting against the HST. His primary reason? Because people would be paying LESS taxes then under PST/GST, leading to a loss in tax revenue to the government.

So I'm a little confused by the Yes side's stance. Are we going to paying less taxes, as purported by Mr. Sinclair? Or more taxes, as according to VanderZalm?

And I think this is the telling thing about about the Yes side and the arguments that they've been presenting: they've pretty much been all over the map to the point of contradiction. The HST isn't going to help the economy, the HST is going to help the economy but the benefits are marginal, it's all about democracy, we'll pay more taxes under HST, we'll pay less taxes under HST. Whenever I see this, where the proponents of one side of a discussion basically just throw out any an all arguments like that, it tells me that they probably don't really have a good case for their position.

People have become zealous defenders of the HST because it's become a political symbol for them, a must win for the business and professional communities.

Please. Have your read the posts in this thread? The people pushing for a yes vote have basically made “We need to get back at the Liberals” as their primary reason for voting yes; the HST has been almost entirely political for them.

 

[huggzy]

Your initial response in this post, about how it costs you more money is a perfectly valid, intelligent comment and a reasonable reason for voting yes.

After the 'however'... you make yourself look like an idiot.


Yes, we are upset about how the tax was implemented. You have a huge round of agreement with every British Columbian. Are we all angry? HELL YA.
Are we going to pay more in taxes? For those that spend money on services and the good things in life. YES right now.. later not as much.

Does the government need to get more cash from us in other ways because the old ways are dying? YES.

If you don't like the HST, and you agree that you want to maintain the services and infrastructure we have in place (healthcare, education, etc), WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST THE GOVERNMENT DO TO GET ENOUGH REVENUE FROM US?

If you are saying no to the HST, you must know a better way. Please share!!

First off...I'm not sure that I'd agree to allowing the government to get more revenue from "us".

Cut spending first.

If you're going to overhaul consumption taxes, then overhaul the income tax system then too.

Tax the wealthy. Far more. Tax modest to poor much less. Then feel free to start increasing consumption taxes.

I don't know exactly how to do it. What I do know is that I support two children and I can hardly get the fuck by. So stop taking money out of my fucking wallet to spend money on programs that (apparently???) our government can't afford with its current revenue streams.

If people want to increase our spending, then have the people (like you) who apparently can afford it pay for it.

 

[huggzy]

I beg to differ - 11% or 10% of dozens more goods and almost every previously-exempt service results in us all paying much more in taxes.
The restaurant INDUSTRY has been hardhit by the HST, not just one restaurant.
The 2 billion (I assume you are talking money here) is the amount of money taken out of consumer pockets and put into corporation profits. So far no savings have been passed on to this consumer. Job creation from the HST hasn't happened either.
PS - there is no indication the government has let go even one tax collector, so re-instituting the GST/PST system would be relatively easy for the government.

This.

This change was simply a reallocation of taxes from business to the consumer. We have absolutely no idea how "business" is going to spend that new found wealth - whether they spend it on job creation, or just stick it in their pockets.

 

[Papa Chongo]

Is there an option on my ballot to have chosen not to waste all the money on this referendum??

I haven't read the thread, but seriously the HST hasn't impacted people like they thought it would, and to be honest we are going to have taxes, if they remove the HST then we'll get PST back and it'll eventually go 8 or 9% anyways!

 

[bcneil]

Defeated 55%

 

[deathreborn]

and a half an hour later the government is already jerking us saying it will be at least a year and a half to revert to the old system. gotta make sure they drag their feet so they squeeze every last penny out of us.

 

[badbadboy]

It took them a few months to get the tax in place and a few years to remove it. BS.

I don't care if my accountant tells me it is good for my biz or the Province.

I am predicting people will be more motivated now to stop additional taxes / fees / levies in the future a la California. Everyone is maxed out on taxation.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

First off...I'm not sure that I'd agree to allowing the government to get more revenue from "us".

Cut spending first.

If you're going to overhaul consumption taxes, then overhaul the income tax system then too.

Tax the wealthy. Far more. Tax modest to poor much less. Then feel free to start increasing consumption taxes.

I don't know exactly how to do it. What I do know is that I support two children and I can hardly get the fuck by. So stop taking money out of my fucking wallet to spend money on programs that (apparently???) our government can't afford with its current revenue streams.

If people want to increase our spending, then have the people (like you) who apparently can afford it pay for it.

Right - check around the world at places that have done just that. I guarantee every one of them are economic basket cases, because capital is like a warm, furry animal... if it gets treated poorly at one place, it just goes to another

It took them a few months to get the tax in place and a few years to remove it. BS.

I don't care if my accountant tells me it is good for my biz or the Province.

I am predicting people will be more motivated now to stop additional taxes / fees / levies in the future a la California. Everyone is maxed out on taxation.

yeah, but they sure were high on the olympics!! now that it's time to pay for them nobody wants to do it... they all look around and say, 'who me? noooo, i didn't enjoy no darn olympics. it was that other group over there - not me'

Oh i can't wait to see christy clark's Plan B. it should be REAL interesting... lol

 

[huggzy]

and a half an hour later the government is already jerking us saying it will be at least a year and a half to revert to the old system. gotta make sure they drag their feet so they squeeze every last penny out of us.

They are a bunch of corrupt fucking cocksuckers. How come they can impose the right to take so long to implement this? I would bet that this could be legally challenged somehow.

 

[bcneil]

They are a bunch of corrupt fucking cocksuckers. How come they can impose the right to take so long to implement this? I would bet that this could be legally challenged somehow.

no matter what side you supported, the fact they plan to take up to two years to revert back. shows a lack of respect for what the voters wanted.

 

[agentman]

and a half an hour later the government is already jerking us saying it will be at least a year and a half to revert to the old system. gotta make sure they drag their feet so they squeeze every last penny out of us.

For reasons like this The People must always be vigilant and outspoken against politicians and bureaucrats.



A possible alternative to the BC Liberals/Conservatives/NDP
British Columbia Libertarian Party
Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society. Libertarianism includes diverse beliefs, all advocating minimization of the state and sharing the goal of maximizing individual liberty and political freedom.
http://www.libertarian.bc.ca/
The BCLP advocates civil liberties, and private property rights, including drug legalization, ending government controls on economic activity, and ending coercive taxation.

 

[luvsdaty]

In the end it was nothing more than a tax shift. The few people with a lot of money, not wanting to pay there share anymore & wanting to dump it on the people. The North American economy is on eggshells as it is, yet the rich wanted to get richer. I've said this before gov't(the rich) don't want us in there little club,they want us to go to work pay our taxes,work till retirement, collect our pensions for a couple months,then finally die. Hopefully in a matter that doesn't put any strain on health care.In return we get treated like crap & given two weeks annual vacation to drink our beer & breed the next generation of worker bee's.