HST - how are you planning to vote?

[Cock Throppled]

You really need to take a refresher course on Economics. Consumers with less money means less demand for goods and services, less demand drives prices down. Does that sound like inflation to you?

The biggest undergroung economy is the drug trade, anything else pales in comparison. I don't see the HST having an effect on the drug trade, do you?

You need to take comprehension courses.

I said "or demand more" that feeds the inflation cycle.

You have yet to come up with any fact I presented earlier that was wrong.

I also expect all the HST supporters, if it's defeated to do their civic duty, you know - "what's best for the province" and continue to tote up purchases, add what would have been HST applicable and submit a cheque every month to the gummint.

 

[wilde]

You need to take comprehension courses.

I said "or demand more" that feeds the inflation cycle.

You have yet to come up with any fact I presented earlier that was wrong.

I also expect all the HST supporters, if it's defeated to do their civic duty, you know - "what's best for the province" and continue to tote up purchases, add what would have been HST applicable and submit a cheque every month to the gummint.

I am sorry you lost me there, how does consumers with less money "demand more"???

You said we've lost jobs, well yesterday's figures just showed we've gained jobs. There goes one of your "facts".

 

[aznboi9]

You have yet to come up with any fact I presented earlier that was wrong.

I would say this is one.

Look at Europe - their VAT's have been part of their economic destruction. They all started at 8-9% and now some of them are over 20%. It's easy for a politician to say the rate will go up 1% every few years and before you know it we're in 20% range.

No, not really, it’s actually more due to over borrowing followed by collapse in the credit and real estate markets:

The depth and breath of the current global financial crisis is unprecedented in post-war economic history. It has several features in common with similar financial-stress driven crisis episodes. It was preceded by relatively long period of rapid credit growth, low risk premiums, abundant availability of liquidity, strong leveraging, soaring asset prices and the development of bubbles in the real estate sector.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/publication15887_en.pdf
So, really, what you’re presenting as fact is merely speculation, or fabrication.

The VAT's have spurred huge underground economies and to make up for lost revenue governments have had to keep jacking up the VAT rates.

This appears speculative as well and, according to this report, would only happen if VAT taxes got raised to rates that are seen nowhere.

The Underground Economy
Another hope for the tax reform proposals is that a new tax structure would reduce transactions taking place outside the tax system. This may depend on what part of the “underground” economy is meant. The “informal” economy, which involves evading taxes on legal activities, is partly a function of tax rates. Reducing rates would reduce the rewards of evasion and thus the incentive to cheat (but some proposals would result in a higher marginal rate for most smaller taxpayers, 17% instead of 10%, for example). For the illegal economy, where tax evasion is normally a minor part of the criminal activity, there is no reason to expect any outcome except continued evasion, although a different tax structure would alter the way in and degree to which income avoids tax, and, depending on behavioral responses, the actual burdens. For example, under an income tax, producers in an underground market pay no taxes, while their customers who operate in the legal market do. Under a sales tax, producers effectively pay taxes on income when it is spent in the market; their customers pay no tax on the segment of income that reflects value added by the illegal part of the market (although tax is paid on intermediate
inputs).

In many ways certain forms of value added taxes and, to a greater extent, retail sales taxes increase the incentive for firms to avoid tax. For a retailer with, say, a 2% profit margin, the benefit of avoiding a profits tax is less than one percent of profits. If the retailer stands to save 20% of each dollar, the incentive to avoid tax is much greater. That is the reason that many tax administrators would recommend the invoice credit form of the VAT used by Europeans (so that firms present evidence on their intermediate purchases which helps to monitor the behavior of the seller) rather than the subtraction method, where firms subtract from intermediate purchases from their tax base. It is also a reason that many tax scholars doubt that a high retail sales tax is feasible, and indeed no such high rate of the retail sales tax exists anywhere.

http://www.martintittle.com/publications/CRS_RL32603.pdf
So it appears that Europe’s form of VAT administration helps to prevent proliferation of underground economies.

And remember, the PROMISE to reduce the HST to 10% in three years is a Liberal PROMISE - about as reliable as a fart in a windstorm.

Please, your just taking the piss with this one. The huge political fallout of not reducing the HST makes breaking this promise an absolute no go. As well, a lot of your claims of lying are speculative.

- The tax would be revenue neutral - A Lie.

Really, most everything I’ve read is that it has been revenue neutral when income tax cuts are taken into account.

- Consumer prices would drop when business savings were passed on - A Lie.

Actually, every study I’ve seen has shown that Consumer Price Indexes do, in fact, drop; but that it takes a year. The HST hasn’t been in effect for a year yet; so, no lie here.

- Jobs would be created - A Lie. We've lost jobs.

Future job growth has never been disputed and you haven’t presented a credible source stating so. Also, the HST has been in effect for less than a year, so any job loss (news to me) is likely not due to HST.

- The economy would be stimulated - A Lie. We're lagging behind provinces without the HST

Source? Critique same as above.

- We will have to pay back $1.6 billion to the feds - A Lie. We haven't even been given the full amount yet and we haven't begun to bargain. In any event - they have collected in the first year enough to pay back what's owed.

Speculation. The budget was based on the receiving the 1.6 billion. Do you really think that the feds are simply going to walk away from the money that they’ve already paid and/or keep on paying us the amount that has been promised?

- Telling us (with our own money) the HST will be cheaper at 10% - A Lie. 10% (if it ever happens) of everything costs a whole lot more than12% of a few things. And an HST, once in place has nowhere to go but up.

12% on a few things? Try 80-85%. That works out to an average tax of 10.6-10.95%, if I’ve calculated correctly. I’m pretty sure 10% is less than 10.6% and we still haven’t taken into account the income taxes cuts.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I guess wilde needed a liberal flack to do his dirty work.

So many things wrong and poorly worded there it's pointless to continue. You're gonna vote no and I'm gonna vote yes.

Another cheap display by the liberals in making the wording confusing.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[wilde]

I guess wilde needed a liberal flack to do his dirty work.

So many things wrong and poorly worded there it's pointless to continue. You're gonna vote no and I'm gonna vote yes.

Another cheap display by the liberals in making the wording confusing.

Be careful what you wish for.

I am just too busy enjoying a nice Saturday afternnon than to debate someone who passes off his opinions as facts. So I do agree that there's no point to continue this discussion with you if you can't tell the difference between facts and opinions. Goodnight Irene.

 

[aznboi9]

I guess wilde needed a liberal flack to do his dirty work.

Aww, muffin. It's not my fault that you're unable to present your case without resorting to speculation and lies, that can't be backed up with actual evidence, and have been easily refuted. If anything, your posts have simply demonstrated that you're little more than partisan hack, unable to make a decision that's based on rational thought or reasoning, and willfully ignore any information or source that doesn't conform to your own, myopic world view. So, yeah, you're right on one point: it is rather pointless to be having this discussion.

But tell you what: to show that there's no hard feelings on my part, here's a cupcake.

 

[Cock Throppled]

(Vancouver Sun) British Columbia Finance Minister Kevin Falcon has gone to New York to calm institutional investor jitters over the outcome of the June 24 referendum on the Harmonized Sales Tax.

Falcon said in a telephone interview Friday that he is meeting with investors who hold $35 billion of the province’s total debt of $53.5 billion.

“In conversations our staff is having with rating agencies and some of these investment fund managers, there were lots of questions being raised about the whole HST referendum,” Falcon said. “They were asking how we were going to manage the impact of a failure.

“We felt it was important to get me in front of them and talk to them about how we are going to manage that downside risk.”
----------------------------------------

What great leaders and money managers are responsible for this mess?

What kind of losers create strife this out of nothing?

What great minds take a province down this road and risk investment?

Yup - got it in one. The great BC Liberals. And that's not an opinion, it's a FACT.

 

[luvsdaty]

Both the ndp & liberals lie, When i'm finally had enough of there lies, i usually vote against them.Be it fast ferries, convention centres or the Hst,I'm sick of the liberals so i'm gonna vote against the hst & against the liberals in the next election.Man we need another centre of right party in B.C. Just to split the vote.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Aww, muffin. It's not my fault that you're unable to present your case without resorting to speculation and lies, that can't be backed up with actual evidence, and have been easily refuted. If anything, your posts have simply demonstrated that you're little more than partisan hack, unable to make a decision that's based on rational thought or reasoning, and willfully ignore any information or source that doesn't conform to your own, myopic world view. So, yeah, you're right on one point: it is rather pointless to be having this discussion.

But tell you what: to show that there's no hard feelings on my part, here's a cupcake.

Contrary to what you think I base my thoughts on observations, personal experience, gut instincts, lessons from other people and facts, not carefully selecting internet stories to bolster my argument. Look around you and see what the HST costs you over a year. Ask yourself why the Liberals had 10 years to implement it, repeatedly said it was a bad tax and then brought it in on a lie and a prayer.

I built businesses now worth millions and I did it with a lot of hard work, none of which came from any politicians of any stripe. I hate all politicians and have no loyalty to any party.

I particularly despise our current provincial government because I've personally witnessed them lie to me, ignore flagrant pollution problems committed by large donors and seen the fabric of a decent society thrown away in the name of "fiscal responsibility". I have loyal staff because I paid them almost double the minimum wage because it was the right thing to do. The government wouldn't raise the MW for a decade to curry favour with large donors.

Their money management and short term thinking are nothing short of complete incompetence.

I do business in Canada, the US, Venezuela, Jamaica, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the UK, Netherlands, Italy and Turkey and I know what I see and hear from customers, suppliers and residents. I've travelled in over 40 countries, so rather than a "myopic world view" I'd say I have a better vision and knowledge than perhaps 90% of the citizenry.

Governments love VAT's because of their simplicity and ease of collecting ever-expanding revenues, not because they improve economies.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's when a government sneaks something in the back door and says it's good for me, I know it isn't.

 

[aznboi9]

Contrary to what you think I base my thoughts on observations, personal experience, gut instincts, lessons from other people and facts, not carefully selecting internet stories to bolster my argument. Look around you and see what the HST costs you over a year.

Yeah, the HST costs more because it’s being applied to an extra 20% on purchases. Duh. The fact that you concentrate all of your vitriol on that and ignore the offsetting income tax cuts, as well as decreased consumer prices shows that, yes, you are in fact being myopic in your stance.

And carefully selecting internet stories? They’re independent studies. Of course I’m going to be careful to select information that is unbiased as possible. That’s what you’re supposed to do. And at least I don’t simply make stuff up, like “12% on a few purchases.”

Ask yourself why the Liberals had 10 years to implement it, repeatedly said it was a bad tax and then brought it in on a lie and a prayer.

It’s already been stated that it wasn’t because they believed it was a bad tax, it was because of concerns of loss of control over tax revenue.

I built businesses now worth millions and I did it with a lot of hard work, none of which came from any politicians of any stripe. I hate all politicians and have no loyalty to any party.

Ok, so you say that you’re not being myopic in your viewpoint, and then you say that you hate ALL politicians? That shows right there that you’re either not being truthful deliberately, or simply deluding yourself, and undermines your claim of gallivanting around the world with your multimillion dollar businesses.

I particularly despise our current provincial government because I've personally witnessed them lie to me, ignore flagrant pollution problems committed by large donors and seen the fabric of a decent society thrown away in the name of "fiscal responsibility". I have loyal staff because I paid them almost double the minimum wage because it was the right thing to do. The government wouldn't raise the MW for a decade to curry favour with large donors.

See? This here, again, illustrates that you’re not thinking clearly about the referendum question. The referendum is about what’s the best thing to do for the province, not about whether you like the government or not. The fact that you’ve made the referendum about the latter proves my point exactly.

Governments love VAT's because of their simplicity and ease of collecting ever-expanding revenues, not because they improve economies.

You finally got something right. VAT’s are a more efficient form of taxation that do the least harm to the economy. So what’s better: income tax, where you get taxed regardless of what you do plus an inefficient sales tax, or lower income taxes with a more efficient sales tax? The fact that you still haven’t gotten that through your head and just keep on ranting and raving, throwing out baseless accusations that are repeatedly refuted shows that, yes, you are being very myopic, partisan and, frankly, more than a little obtuse.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's when a government sneaks something in the back door and says it's good for me, I know it isn't.

Again, you haven’t been able to give a clear, logical reason for how the HST is worse that the PST/GST; you’re position is based purely on stubbornness and emotion. You're confirming that you simply made an assumption that anything government does is bad without actually looking at the issue on its own. Because of this, you’ve been reduced to grasping at straws to try and justify your position; because it’s really not justifiable.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I hate all politicians because whatever original motivation they may have had they all become corrupt once in power. That cuts across all parties in practically all countries. Self-gratification takes over their thinking.

The biggest reason VAT/HST taxes are so popular is one reason and one reason only - they are so broad that small increment increases generate massive revenue. It's easy to make an announcement saying the HST will be going up 1% or 1/2% and nobody flinches. Before you know it the rate climbs to 17-18%.

I've never claimed the HST is worse than the GST/PST. Taxes are taxes.

I pay a lot of taxes, but I still think businesses are undertaxed. I'm a contrarian and never do things the way people expect. The mainstream business community loves the HST because they are taxed less at the expense of consumers.

HST/VAT taxes do not create jobs. Never have/never will. The VAT supporters always have excuses like - it takes a while to kick in, you might pay more but prices will drop, the efficiencies will be passed to the consumer.

Never happens.

I'd like to go on a spending spree. Start naming all those price reductions you claim to know about.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

I've never claimed the HST is worse than the GST/PST. Taxes are taxes.

I disagree. While all taxes do harm the economy, they are not all equal in this regard. There is a great deal of research on this subject, which confirms that a VAT such as the HST is much less harmful to the economy than a retail sales tax such as the PST.

The biggest reason VAT/HST taxes are so popular is one reason and one reason only - they are so broad that small increment increases generate massive revenue. It's easy to make an announcement saying the HST will be going up 1% or 1/2% and nobody flinches. Before you know it the rate climbs to 17-18%.

This may be true but if you are truly concerned about tax increases as opposed to being against the HST per se, then I would suggest that you should be directing your efforts to targeting government spending, which is the driving force behind the level of taxation.

I pay a lot of taxes, but I still think businesses are undertaxed.

Corporate taxes have been shown to be the most harmful form of taxation. In fact, raising the rates above a certain level usually results in lower tax revenues, due to the negative impact they have on business and investment.

HST/VAT taxes do not create jobs. Never have/never will.

It has never been claimed that the HST "creates jobs". What is being claimed, and economic theory and empirical research supports this, is that the HST is less harmful to the economy than the PST, and therefore by switching, the result will be net job creation.

It comes down to this. The government needs to raise funds to finance its operations. There are many ways of doing this, each with pros and cons. We should strive to find the method of taxation that generates the needed revenues, while minimizing the harmful effects on the economy. I believe that switching from the PST to the HST accomplishes this goal.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I don't know how old you are, Azbboi but I'm willing to bet you've never run a business or had to meet a payroll.

You also seem in love with economic theories, but in the real world theories don't always look as good.

You are obviously willing to overlook any transgression this government might commit because it meets your political agenda.

I'm sure if Christy Clark stabbed Henrik Sedin to death you could find a web site to show how good it would be.

It's sad to see how easy some people buy into the propaganda, roll over, grease up and get their butts without a peep.

I do agree, whoisjohngalt - spending by every level of government is way out of control and needs to be reigned in. The feds are claiming to want to do this, but show no signs of actually doing anything. The provincial government is spending like drunken sailors.

 

[aznboi9]

I've never claimed the HST is worse than the GST/PST. Taxes are taxes.

Then WTF are you posting about? The referendum question is entirely centred on which is worse, the HST vs GST/PST; everything else is unrelated drivel.

So, so far, you shown yourself to be wrong on pretty much every “fact” that you've put forward, you've been unable to present any reasonable explanation or evidence to back up your stance and, now, you've demonstrated that you don't even know what debate is about. You're just embarrassing yourself.

And so, having every point you've made refuted and bereft of anything meaningful to counter with, you're left with with nothing more except an ad hominem. It's pathetic; but quite predictable. And, yes, I do own my business.

But that's ok. Here, if it'll make you feel better, have another cupcake.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Keep drinking the Kool aid.

 

[luvsdaty]

I really could care less which tax is better, The libs lied,so i'm voting against it.

 

[PuntMeister]

Promises are promises, but laws are laws. Fact: Commitment to drop the HST to 10% is now law if the No vote to repeal it is successful. See article:

http://www.canadaone.com/ezine/briefs.html?StoryID=11Jun10_2

Here is a little story that gives me personal guidance in times of disagreement. When I was 15, my sister came home from the store one day and told us about a dress she saw at the mall. She said it was different in an interesting way and she thought we would like to see it, but that she would never buy it because it was too expensive, some people wouldn't like the pattern, and she was concerned her cousin might borrow it and mess it up. On the weekend she went to the mall shopping again. Guess what? She bought the dress. It went on sale. All of a sudden it made sense to buy the dress. At dinner that night I called her a liar to her face. I even did the little 'pants on fire' song. She defended herself because the value changed, which it did, but never the less I couldn't get over the feeling that she lied to us. My parents told me I was being petty and asked me if I had ever changed my mind when circumstances warranted. I said no. Then they recounted a few times I had changed my mind, but Never over a dress! My parents never called me a liar. I didn't sleep well that night. Finally I realized my sister never meant any ill will to me when she changed her mind because the dress went on sale. In fact she thought she was doing the right thing. I never reconciled this with her, even though a mirror had been held up to my eyes. Now I wish I had not been so petty before she passed away.

About taxes. Governments generally do not and should NOT put taxation changes to a vote. They are inherently unpopular and divisive. Goverments need to set policy in order to govern, and that includes making tax decisions, especially when economic circumstances change. If you don't like the policy, vote them out. This is a bizzar situation that the liberals brought upon themselves by bad communication. People are allowed to change their minds if circumstances change, but they should have explained things a whole lot better. Campbell is gone over inadequate explanation and communication about a major policy change. Fine. That doesn't make the tax a bad idea and going after the federal incentive was probably the right thing to do for the province at the time. We just weren't there for the ride, so we are really salty about it. I am basing my vote on the merrit of the tax. Therfore I am voting for the 10% HST in 2014. That is really the best possible end game for B.C., and now it is law for the government to follow through on the reductions. Am I dissappointed and pissed the way the HST came down? You betcha! I am big enough to put the change of heart on the HST behind me for a greater good? Yes. I don't like liars. I like indignant bad spirited hating people even less. There is passion and pettiness in all of us. What spirit will you bring on the day of choice?

 

[not2old]

I really could care less which tax is better, The libs lied,so i'm voting against it no matter how much it will cost me or the economy.

Fixed it for you

 

[chilli]

Fixed it for you

It's people like you that give us the polticians and the bad government that we have today.

You let people lie and mislead - and then people wonder why were in such a mess.

Do you honestly think that once the HST is in place that they won't raise it in the future?

Give your head a shake.

Your ignorance is appalling.

I fail to see how more taxes is good for the economy, but heh spin it any way you can...

 

[whoisjohngalt]

It's people like you that give us the polticians and the bad government that we have today.

You let people lie and mislead - and then people wonder why were in such a mess.

Do you honestly think that once the HST is in place that they won't raise it in the future?

Give your head a shake.

Your ignorance is appalling.

I fail to see how more taxes is good for the economy, but heh spin it any way you can...

Mr Chilli

I understand your obvious frustration with politicians and governments. There is no doubt in my mind that the Liberals botched the implementation of the HST and were not completely forthcoming on their plans to introduce the tax, and I say this as someone who has been a Liberal supporter.

The expectation is that there will be a General Election very soon which will give you and everyone else the opportunity to condemn the Liberals as you see fit. But I implore you to consider the merits of the HST as a separate matter and vote the referendum based on those merits.

If you read through this thread, and do your own independent research, I believe you will come to the conclusion that notwithstanding the way it was brought in, the HST is a more efficient and less harmful method of taxation than the PST it is replacing.

To address your comment that the HST can be raised in the future: Is this not the case with every other tax on the books, including the PST? The question here is not about raising or lowering taxes, it is about which tax method is more efficient. If you are bothered by the level of taxation, which is a separate unrelated matter, then you need to focus your attention on government spending, which in the long run is what determines taxation levels. Furthermore, I would suggest based on past history that the Liberals are more likely to control spending and promulgate tax cuts than the NDP, but that is another debate for another day.