How long does it take to beat a suspect in Vancouver?

[grusse]

Strawman arguments like this are just so weak. For every "what if it was you" one could turn that 180 around and say, okay, what if you were out for a jog down some Vancouver back alley in your favourite tear offs and wifebeater t-shirt, the cops come running along looking for a junkie who just raped a dog or something, spot you because you look like the description they got, and take you down, and take you down hard. You're indignant and flipping out, so the cops start just beating the shit out of you to get you under control. You continue proclaiming your innocence and yelling, so they kick you in the chest to shut you the fuck up.

I guess since they "deal with junkies and PoS all day long", it'd be fine right? As long as they maybe just said sorry or something to you afterwards.

The law is the law is the law. The law is there to PROTECT THE INNOCENT; and by doing so, unfortunately assholes and junkies and thieves and rapists and murderers get the "benefit" of that protection too.

The law, and the application of such isn't there to coddle the scum; this perception of coddling is just a byproduct. The law and its application and enforcement exists to PROTECT THE INNOCENT, especially when it comes to things like this kick to the chest a handcuffed man got. I do not trust anyone's wide interpretation of what the "law" is and who is innocent and who is guilty in a fly-by-the-moment situation like a perp takedown. Enforce the fucking law, and follow the fucking law, cops, and nothing more, nothing less. There's been many cases historically of people who everyone and their dog thought was guilty of a crime and it turned out they were innocent. It is not up to a cop on the scene to take the law into his own hands and provide an interpretation of it.

I'll take the rule of law any day even if it means "scum get coddled". , and when a cop breaks a law, they need to be held fully accountable -even more so than just average citizens. I'd rather the "scum" get a bit of coddling (as some of you point out) than have one innocent person beat up by a cop because the cop just thought the person was shady or guilty. If you or anyone else wants cowboy frontier justice where vigilanteism and lynchings are common, I hear that lifestyle can be lived to the fullest in places like Afghanistan.

PS just so you don't think I'm entirely a 'bleeding heart liberal, I also believe harsh punishments (by a court of law) should match the crime, especially for certain crimes. While I don't support the death penalty I do think rapists should have their dicks cut off. And even worse punishments for child molesters - they lose the dicks and testies, and get sentenced to 30 years hard labour up north of the Arctic line.

ur back alley scenario is hypothetical,my "strawman" question was factual.

 

[myselftheother]

ur back alley scenario is hypothetical,my "strawman" question was factual.

The chances of that happening to you is remote...and doubt that would happen to you. Secondly, in reality....what happened to the criminal who robbed a store then tried to hijack a woman's car, is very lucky to just have gotten booted in the chest. This guy is the criminal, not the cop who did what most of us would just stop at doing. I don't care about whether or not the cop overstepped his authority, which he did...in booting this criminal in the chest. I'd do it. Over and over. If the suspect is still struggling and squirming around, resisting arrest....I'd do what it would take to subdue and stop this criminal from escaping and doing more harm to the public interest and safety, including a boot to the chest, head....and not just a prod or a shove. Cops have a hard job, and along with the scrutiny and the bullshit armchair lawyers screaming about it just makes it tougher, along with the revolving door justice system.....and seeing the same filth out there every day, inspite of being arrested and booked dozens of times...so until it happens to you, getting robbed, b&e'd, raped, assaulted on the street...would you still be so fucking indignant if you were the victim? I don't fuckin think so.

 

[Bartdude]

Favourite quote from Law and Order - the first one when it was actually good...."the law says thou shalt not kill; it doesn't say thou shalt not kill nice people".

Pretty damn hard to feel sympathy for the "victim" in this case - but if we allow the police unchecked discretion to pick and choose who it's okay to use excessive force on, we are all in trouble.

 

[grusse]

The chances of that happening to you is remote...and doubt that would happen to you. Secondly, in reality....what happened to the criminal who robbed a store then tried to hijack a woman's car, is very lucky to just have gotten booted in the chest. This guy is the criminal, not the cop who did what most of us would just stop at doing. I don't care about whether or not the cop overstepped his authority, which he did...in booting this criminal in the chest. I'd do it. Over and over. If the suspect is still struggling and squirming around, resisting arrest....I'd do what it would take to subdue and stop this criminal from escaping and doing more harm to the public interest and safety, including a boot to the chest, head....and not just a prod or a shove. Cops have a hard job, and along with the scrutiny and the bullshit armchair lawyers screaming about it just makes it tougher, along with the revolving door justice system.....and seeing the same filth out there every day, inspite of being arrested and booked dozens of times...so until it happens to you, getting robbed, b&e'd, raped, assaulted on the street...would you still be so fucking indignant if you were the victim? I don't fuckin think so.

myself,where did you get the idea that I'm "fucking indignant"..?
if it was up to me I'd shoot the f...g waste of space

re-read my post asking miss bj if she'd feel the same way if she'd been in the store when he psychoed.

this p.o.s. got off lightly with a kick in the chest,s/ve been tasered

 

[Unpossible]

If the suspect is still struggling and squirming around, resisting arrest....I'd do what it would take to subdue and stop this criminal from escaping and doing more harm to the public interest and safety,

He wasn't resisting and was subdued. He was in his gonch with his arms cuffed behind his back ffs! Are vpd so inept that 5 officers can't control a junkie with both arms tied behind his back?

 

[Aleister Crowley]

sure they can , but they are human too , and when they were just hearing what some poor hesterical young girl was saying and shaking and crying about her fearful experience and then the handcuffed junkie mouths off something to the cop with no respect for the cops or the trauma they inflicted on the victim , then humans slip up sometimes.
too bad he did not restist arrest so they could have poped him a few grams of hot lead.
Cops are human and they see a lot of ugly shit , and these usless parisites pieces of shit do not deserve zero respect.
CULL THEM

 

[myselftheother]

myself,where did you get the idea that I'm "fucking indignant"..?
if it was up to me I'd shoot the f...g waste of space

re-read my post asking miss bj if she'd feel the same way if she'd been in the store when he psychoed.

this p.o.s. got off lightly with a kick in the chest,s/ve been tasered

I'm sorry, dude...I quoted the wrong poster. I was actually agreeing with your point.

 

[grusse]

I'm sorry, dude...I quoted the wrong poster. I was actually agreeing with your point.

no prob,we're on the same page

 

[Cock Throppled]

There was a video I saw once of police shooting a guy with his hands up and offering to surrender.

A second view showed one hand slightly obscured holding a gun being raised.

Based on the first angle it was a police murder.

The second angle made it a good shooting.

Calling people who disagree with your opinion Nazis or calling the US a police state is beyond ignorant. Visit a real police state and get back to us.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

I have to wonder if miss bj would have the same opinion if she had been in the store when this psychotic POS did his thing?

Well, I have been robbed at gun point (years ago). And not in a store - in my own home. And I can tell you that I would have and still would not see any point or any use in the police kicking anyone in the stomach while they were handcuffed. What I would have liked though, is for them to actually investigate and find them so they could be charged in court. If I wanted someone to kick them, I would have sent friends to do it! lol But I didn't. Sorry if the concept of blind revenge doesn't appeal to me as it seems to greatly appeal to you. I find it rather petty, empty and most of all, totally pointless. I guess taking the moral high ground isn't your thing (along with a few other bitter individuals on this thread)?

Bijou , its bleeding hearts like u and sleezbag lawyers that are fucking up are system.
You have zero sense of reality for what this useless piece of shit is or what his actions do to innocent people.
Or for what our cops have to go thru , the cop probably was wound up in the moment , rightfully so and saw and heard the poor victims freaking out from the shock and trauma of a addict waving a knife in her face. You feel for the poor victim (at least some of us do Bijiou) then this piece of shit starts mouthing off about his rights and ouch your hurting me bullshit. Shut the fuck up junkie and kick him in the chest. big fucking deal.
Its time for a clense of the addicts in vancouver... like they do in many cities in this world.
give them free needles soaked in cyanide!!!!

Hmm, right. So you're suggesting I not see things from the perspective of "bleeding hearts" (insisting the police follow the law is for "bleeding hearts"? Really? News to me..) but that I should instead follow the example you favor....um....the psychopathic, anti-social, deranged and raving lunatic? Um, yah...sorry, I'll have to pass on that one - thanks. But apparently, you're not alone anyways..

sure they can , but they are human too , and when they were just hearing what some poor hesterical young girl was saying and shaking and crying about her fearful experience and then the handcuffed junkie mouths off something to the cop with no respect for the cops or the trauma they inflicted on the victim , then humans slip up sometimes.
too bad he did not restist arrest so they could have poped him a few grams of hot lead.
Cops are human and they see a lot of ugly shit , and these usless parisites pieces of shit do not deserve zero respect.
CULL THEM

If we had public stoning as a means of punishment the POS repaeting offender would not have done it as
he would know that he would have to endure say 2 weeks of public stoning....staked out 24/7 with the clothes
on his back and bread and water once a day and knowing that if he did it again it would be far more time...regardless of the weather.

Do I have any sympathy for the POS....nope....same as I have no sympathy for the POS crackhead that
smashed in the skull of a gal that worked at a Subway in Forest Lawn a few years back...and right before he smashed her skull in he did the same thing to a guy at an ATM.I hvae no mercy for POS's like this and I would
have no problem letting them ride the lightning in the chair....I think the pennance of public stoning is far worse and it sure as hell is more of a deterrent than a cushy jail cell with 3 square meals a day at the cost to the taxpayer......STONE SOME SENSE INTO THEM.

SR

Well, can't say there's anything surprising about your take SR. If anything, you're consistent.

Calling people who disagree with your opinion Nazis or calling the US a police state is beyond ignorant. Visit a real police state and get back to us.

So how would you qualify the above "opinions", if not Nazi-like?

The US is a "police state lite" or an aspiring police state - how's that? Better? (Do I need to resort to using *gasp* links and/or quotes? LOL)

Yes, but what you don't know is what all happened the half hour BEFORE those six seconds. You can't just judge six seconds in isolation.

What happened before is irrelevant.

Exactly - what happened before makes not a bit of difference.

People should not delude themselves into thinking that we are a more sophisticated society today than we were in the past. From the vitriol that has been espoused on this thread it is easily apparent that the methods used by the Nazis to come to power in Germany in the 1930 are still powerful tools. Inspiring hatred, violence and other baser emotional responses are extremely convenient tools to manipulate the masses.

Perhaps cold blind evolution should be given priority. In which case, I have a proposal. All addicts, mentally and physically impaired individuals, the elderly, and generally those of a poorer and weaker disposition should be put to productive use to serve the wealthy and strong.

The first thing we can set up is camps where these inferior persons holding back the strength of the species can be utilized for medical research. When it comes to the addicts, it would not be much of a stretch for them to participate in radical pharmaceutical research. These weak individuals can still further serve their superiors by providing whatever is left of their bodies to industrial use. We will appreciate the raw material.

And to those parents who complain about their children being bullied, thank you for pointing out these potentially weak individuals. They will be closely monitored for relocation to a camp. While you are at it, please also identify the bullies to us. They will make excellent candidates for the Gestapo, er, I mean the police force.

Careful, you'll give the rabid mob all kinds of ideas. Next thing you know they'll be calling for the hands of thieves to be cut off, public hanging of murderers and feeding rapists to lions while a cheering crowd watches on.

 

[Aleister Crowley]

Careful, you'll give the rabid mob all kinds of ideas. Next thing you know they'll be calling for the hands of thieves to be cut off, public hanging of murderers and feeding rapists to lions while a cheering crowd watches on.

the most logical , intelligent thing you have said yet !!! great idea !!!

 

[Cock Throppled]

Miss Bijou - I don't believe the police have the right to be judge and jury, but I understand how they can over-react in certain circumstance.

I have worked and lived in REAL police states - Algeria, Yugoslavia, Rhodesia, so when you call the US a "police state lite" you aren't doing yourself any favour, just displaying ignorance. You can have your opinion, but a real police state is apparently beyond your understanding. Reading about police states in wikepedia doesn't count.

 

[grusse]

not "blind revenge" miss bj,totally 20/20 revenge/payback,fully deserved.

as far as "petty,empty,pointless" fine,that's ur opinion,not mine(nor a lot of other posters)

cock throppled...very good answer,you've seen a real police state and know the difference.

don't know if facts will have any effect on someone who's mind is made up tho'

 

[kenchorney]

Miss Bijou - I don't believe the police have the right to be judge and jury, but I understand how they can over-react in certain circumstance.

I have worked and lived in REAL police states - Algeria, Yugoslavia, Rhodesia, so when you call the US a "police state lite" you aren't doing yourself any favour, just displaying ignorance. You can have your opinion, but a real police state is apparently beyond your understanding. Reading about police states in wikepedia doesn't count.

Spot on, I'm sure most Syrians would trade their government for that of the US or Canada in a heartbeat these days.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Spot on, I'm sure most Syrians would trade their government for that of the US or Canada in a heartbeat these days.

uh, did I say otherwise. So because one country is "better" that automatically means there are absolutely no characteristics of a police state?

Nonsense. No one asked which country would Syrians trade their government with. And besides, don't be so sure they'd want our imperialistic self serving government as their own. We're busy funding a huge mess over there and there's a lot of blood being shed that's paid for by us! I wouldn't be so quick to assume anything, to be honest. There's nothing clear-cut or black and white about the craziness in Syria.

 

[kenchorney]

Get off you high horse for once. You compared the US to a police state and CT basically told you you were wrong. As always you fly off the handle into a rant. Last time I checked our evil government was not shooting the students in Montreal and digging mass graves. You live in one of the best counties in the world today, you can rant and bitch and moan about the government all you want and there will not be a knock on your door at midnight by the cops to drag you away never to be seen again.

Tell you tales of woe to some people who have actually lived it, take it to Afghanistan, Cambodia, Iran or maybe talk to a WWII vet. They would all tell you you you're full of shit. You have absolutly no flipping idea what you are talking about. We have it better than 99% of the people on the planet.

Ya ya I know I'm a troll,an asshole etc etc etc.

OK you can go back to Starbucks and plan your little revolution on your ipad now with the rest of the white wine radicals.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Miss Bijou - I don't believe the police have the right to be judge and jury, but I understand how they can over-react in certain circumstance.

I have worked and lived in REAL police states - Algeria, Yugoslavia, Rhodesia, so when you call the US a "police state lite" you aren't doing yourself any favour, just displaying ignorance. You can have your opinion, but a real police state is apparently beyond your understanding. Reading about police states in wikepedia doesn't count.

You're making a claim as if the mere act of doing so makes it the undeniable truth and calling me ignorant while providing precisely ZERO arguments to support that claim or refute mine. Well isn't that a convincing reason to take your word for it. And you're calling me ignorant? Whatever.

So according to you, a country can either be full-on evil repressive police state but if it doesn't fit that extreme description, and only some aspects (to various degrees) are found, they can't be considered to be "lite" police states, or heading in that direction? Unless the police state is at its most repressive, it's not worth mentioning , pointing out or discussing? I'm sorry you think so and I completely disagree but that doesn't make me ignorant just because I don't have blind faith and trust or am happy sticking my head in the sand like you are.

Please keep your opinion of what's ignorant to yourself. I'm very well aware of what I'm saying and it's not in any way out of line or irrelevant....and definitely not ignorant. I don't claim to know everything but I also can't be accused of knowing nothing either - that's just not the case, even if you don't like what I'm saying or disagree.


I'm not sure what that comment about Wikipedia is for - maybe you didn't like that there's a section about the US so you just decided to discredit it from the get-go, I don't know. But wikipedia is always the easiest place to go however that is usually not the only or the first.

police state:
a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police state



Why do I think the US is an aspiring police state?
First of all, no one can try to argue that the US' foreign policy is not in very great part based on overtly supporting police states and repressive government and often covertly supporting or initiating the establishment of such governments. There's no debating that, the list is ridiculously long and not hard to find. Second, without getting into all of the details I'm just going to list a few of the points which, when researched, inevitably lead to examples that support what I'm saying.


- Assault on and gutting of Civil Liberties since 9/11
- Patriot Act since 9/11
- NDAA which allows for arbitrary, indefinite detention of citizens without any charges being filed or access to a lawyer
- "Extraordinary Renditions" of citizens
- Creation of a "Special" judicial system (twice) to try only some individuals
- Creation of laws and offenses not recognized as such under international law
- CMU prisons Cruel and unusual punishment and torture (in regular prisons, for example: the widespread solitary confinement for ongoing, non temporary periods of time - eg 10-20-30 years etc)
- Highest rates of prisoners per capita in the world (Canada is 130 btw)
- Disregard for International Laws and Conventions in its treatment of prisoners, both citizens and foreign, at home or abroad.
- Impunity for crimes committed by members of the executive class, Cronyism, Fraud, Corruption
- Assassinations of its own citizens abroad, despite having never been charged or convicted of a crime or ever making public any specific information about the accusations. One of the individuals killed was a minor - 16 years old. (No accountability, no oversight - decision left up to the President and a handful of individuals assigned by him)
- Surveillance state; widespread, secret, illegal and arbitrary wiretapping, monitoring and spying on citizens and dissenters exercising their rights to protest non violently, film makers, rights activists, "hackers" and privacy experts, etc.
- Intimidation of citizens to force them into becoming informants by using their power eg adding their name to the official "no fly" list (which apparently has over 20 000 names now!), in effect making it impossible for them to travel unless they become informants (there are many cases, not just one isolated incident)
- "Cointelpro" if you go back further in time the recent examples I've listed above


etc....


http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/kolin-how-the-us-became-a-police-state.html




<iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed/show/2012/4/20" frameborder="0"></iframe>



http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2012/4/20

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/e_2/




Anyway, I could write way more but I'll leave it at that.

 

[badbadboy]

uh, did I say otherwise. So because one country is "better" that automatically means there are absolutely no characteristics of a police state?

Nonsense. No one asked which country would Syrians trade their government with. And besides, don't be so sure they'd want our imperialistic self serving government as their own. We're busy funding a huge mess over there and there's a lot of blood being shed that's paid for by us! I wouldn't be so quick to assume anything, to be honest. There's nothing clear-cut or black and white about the craziness in Syria.

Set up your business in Syria and let us know how it works out for you.

I am pretty sure you will appreciate what you have here now in a real hurry.

ah, Proof on us funding a huge mess over there? Source? From everything I have read the Western World is challenging Russia to stop their support of the Syrian Gov't. And please don't pull up a bunch of unsubstantiated Wiki URL's.

 

[Torrential]

Anyone who were speaking in favour of the cop would be a great citizen for Nazi Germany or the United Police State of America.

Godwin's Law. This thread is over.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

[Cock Throppled]

Miffineater - the police, for the most part don't give a rat's ass about prostitution. It's legal in Canada. It's underage, nuisance, trafficking, pimping, etc they worry about, as they should.
--------------------------

Miss Bijou -

Unless you're really into it, I suggest you take the stick out of your ass and learn to listen to other opinions.

You are so self-absorbed and determined to "win" your position you don't even try to absorb ideas that don't follow yours.

Three times I have responded mentioning the police should not be judge and jury, but that I understand the emotions and stresses that go with dealing daily with people who don't care about anyone else.

Rather than acknowledge my partial agreement with your stance, you chose to escalate the debate by making the inane comment the United States a police state lite.

I disagreed and you launched one of those tantrums you seem to think bolster your point, but in fact usually undermine your position.

Does the US government and some of its various national, state or local police overstep their mandates and go overboard with surveillance, incarceration and violence? You bet.

Can the same be said of Canada? You bet.

Britain? Australia? France? Venezuela? Cuba? Yes X 5.

In fact, you could make those points about every country in the world and any police force.

Is there a perfect government, perfect state, perfect rule of order, perfect justice system? No on all counts.

The United States has brought in some strange laws since 911 and there have been some abuses since, I'll agree.

However, in a police state the recourse to such actions are limited or usually, non-existant. In the US and most western states there are safeguards and public and private means to address misdeeds by the state. There is a free press that frequently and fervently reports abuses (you seem to have no trouble finding examples) and there is a large, and very vocal public that will complain about abuses. There is a thriving legal system. The Americans are a litigious group and will sue at the drop of a hat.

Doesn't mean abuse won't happen, but there are ways to fight back.

That is not a police state, or anything close.

Even though foreign policy doesn't even enter the definition of police state, your citing that as an example is also ignorant. The US foreign policy was every bit as violent, covert and intrusive 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, as now.

Because you can find examples of repressive of over-the-top incidents doesn't make the US a police state any more than Cuba's health system, China's technology, or Saudi Arabia's infrastructure make them liberal and progressive.