Honesty between the sexes: how much of it is feasible?

[tantalizeme]

I’ve been on an honesty binge lately.

The other day, for example, I went out to a dance with mostly older folk. I was holding a provocatively dressed Korean mature in my arms. We were making small talk when she suddenly asked if I was married.

“Never been married,” I say.

“Why not?” she wonders.

Normally I’ve a ready reply: “Haven’t found the right lady yet.”

This answer tends to produce a predictable dialogue—with the woman asking what I mean by “the right lady,” and me saying, “Someone like you, perhaps.”

But yesterday I thought, what the hell. Why be phony? So I told my dance partner, “Some men are just not cut out for marriage. It's too restrictive. I find other types of relationships more congenial.”

English isn’t this lady’s first language, so perhaps she didn’t understand all my words. In any case, she looked perplexed, as if trying to process my answer. Eventually she said, “What do you mean?”

I felt in a mood to elaborate.

“Well, I want a relationship that’s loving and passionate, but my partner and I allow each other to have sex with other people too."

The lady seemed vaguely agitated and stopped talking, leaving the conversational space to me. I couldn’t resist.

“Personally, I avoid marriage like the plague. I often pay women for sex. It’s really the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy, satisfying sex life, without undue complications.”

I felt good—even though I realized, I could kiss goodbye any potential hop in the sack with this particular lady. Not that this was something I had set my sights on: her boringly conventional expectations would ensnare me in precisely the kind of complications I’m trying to avoid.

Will men ever be able to be honest with women about their sexuality? Can women stand the truth about men’s fantasies? Or is the need for hypocrisy between the sexes going to be endless?

 

[sevenofnine]

I find I am tired of living the lie as well.
I have told women I will never see again, when I am out killing time in a bar before I hook up with my sp.
If it so happens I fall into a conversation with a women and she wants to know what I am up to,
I tell her Im seeing a hooker latter.

They have taken it pretty good and some are curious.
But then again I will never see these women again.

 

[AA_Train]

I don't think most women want the truth a lot of the time. They want to hear what they want to hear in order to either indulge their insecurities or so they can have their tires pumped by a showering of compliments, sincere or otherwise. They need constant affirmation that the way they see the world is the right way and can't handle the actual truth of a situation because it will mean they are wrong, thus meaning there is something wrong with them. A lot of them have big, fragile egos and any little shot to it will shatter it completely. With women it's about emotions, how a situation makes them feel and how they feel about themselves. Sometimes things are what they are. It's neither good nor bad, it just is.

Triumph of the subjective. That's how it is with most women.

 

[westcoast555]

I’ve been on an honesty binge lately.

The other day, for example, I went out to a dance with mostly older folk. I was holding a provocatively dressed Korean mature in my arms. We were making small talk when she suddenly asked if I was married.

“Never been married,” I say.

“Why not?” she wonders.

Normally I’ve a ready reply: “Haven’t found the right lady yet.”

This answer tends to produce a predictable dialogue—with the woman asking what I mean by “the right lady,” and me saying, “Someone like you, perhaps.”

But yesterday I thought, what the hell. Why be phony? So I told my dance partner, “Some men are just not cut out for marriage. It's too restrictive. I find other types of relationships more congenial.”

English isn’t this lady’s first language, so perhaps she didn’t understand all my words. In any case, she looked perplexed, as if trying to process my answer. Eventually she said, “What do you mean?”

I felt in a mood to elaborate.

“Well, I want a relationship that’s loving and passionate, but my partner and I allow each other to have sex with other people too."

The lady seemed vaguely agitated and stopped talking, leaving the conversational space to me. I couldn’t resist.

“Personally, I avoid marriage like the plague. I often pay women for sex. It’s really the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy, satisfying sex life, without undue complications.”

I felt good—even though I realized, I could kiss goodbye any potential hop in the sack with this particular lady. Not that this was something I had set my sights on: her boringly conventional expectations would ensnare me in precisely the kind of complications I’m trying to avoid.

Will men ever be able to be honest with women about their sexuality? Can women stand the truth about men’s fantasies? Or is the need for hypocrisy between the sexes going to be endless?

I think you were doing OK until the part about telling her you pay women for sex. You can talk about not wanting to settle down or needing your freedom but when you start telling women you pay for sex... it's going to go south pretty fast. Being a playboy and playing the field or even being kind of a sugar daddy for younger women is one thing... categorically paying for it, trust met they don't get it and it won't go over well.

 

[yazoo]

Hot girls and rich guys can get away with saying almost anything and still find what they are after. The rest of us have to play the game.

Remember the only reason you have the freedom you like is because you are independent. You have the resources (financial and emotional) to live on your own if you need to.

For those who are bound to expectations of income and emotional bonds, the risk of alienating a potential mate is often too high.

 

[Pillowtalk]

I don't think most men want the truth a lot of the time. They want to hear what they want to hear in order to either indulge their insecurities or so they can have their tires pumped by a showering of compliments, sincere or otherwise. They need constant affirmation that the way they see the world is the right way and can't handle the actual truth of a situation because it will mean they are wrong, thus meaning there is something wrong with them. A lot of them have big, fragile egos and any little shot to it will shatter it completely. With men it's about emotions, how a situation makes them feel and how they feel about themselves. Sometimes things are what they are. It's neither good nor bad, it just is.

Triumph of the subjective. That's how it is with most men.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Fixed that for ya.

 

[hang5507]

Not much honesty here at all. Being condescending to others is hardly, honesty. Who are you to make judgements on women, as to their boringly conventional expectations that would ensnare you. You must think you're god's gift to women the way you talk. All these women seemingly who want to land you for a husband. Man, the sheer ego on you is something else.

You're proud of yourself, because you shocked some poor Korean woman. Well, you da man, homie. What do you want, a cookie? You looking for approval, some high fives, that's you're on the path to enlightenment? Whatever.

Your entire life seems to center around your dick. You want the freedom to fuck anything you want, do it. Quit making speeches. And quit attempting to justify your own personal actions with some generalized bullshit, like it's the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy, satisfying sex life. What do you know about most men, anyway? Nothing is the answer.

Honesty in your world is a one way street that involves your dick and your ego. Believe it or not, some men actually fantasize, not just about having sex with women, but about being in love, about being connected with someone. You, you're an empty shell of a man, absolutely terrified to enter into truly dangerous territory, which might involve emotions you don't entirely have control over. Of course, in your case, whatever emotions you might be capable of, probably died ages ago. You can't lose what you never had.

You want honesty? Men need women a hell of a lot more than women need men. I've known men who ended their lives when the relationship they had went south. Others become stalkers, hunt women down, beat them, kill them. Cut open your typical male and you'll find an insecure mama's boy with unresolved mother issues. A mother's affection is always taken away too soon from a male child. You seek mother's love, her approval and that spills over to relationships with women. You deny the power that women have over you emotionally, but, really what's the point. This shit gets very primal. The only "honest" thing is to confront and admit the truth. I know exactly how much power women have over me, both sexually and emotionally. I love women, but I also fear them as well.

If I ever get to the point where it becomes all about my dick and nothing else, then I hope that someone would have the decency to take me to the middle of a field, put a gun to the back of my head, pull the trigger and put me out of my misery. I don't want to live in a world where the possibility of love doesn't exist, and that's your world. Your dick, your ego, and well, that's all she wrote. And well, that's not enough for me.

Wow! You sure read a lot more into that post than I.

regards

H

 

[tantalizeme]

Well said, filmgeek

You want honesty? Men need women a hell of a lot more than women need men. I've known men who ended their lives when the relationship they had went south. Others become stalkers, hunt women down, beat them, kill them. Cut open your typical male and you'll find an insecure mama's boy with unresolved mother issues. A mother's affection is always taken away too soon from a male child. You seek mother's love, her approval and that spills over to relationships with women. You deny the power that women have over you emotionally, but, really what's the point. This shit gets very primal. The only "honest" thing is to confront and admit the truth. I know exactly how much power women have over me, both sexually and emotionally. I love women, but I also fear them as well.

Hey brother,

Thanks for your heartfelt contribution. Clearly, you've your perspective, and I have mine. Hope you walk your talk as I walk mine.

Given that you're on an escort review board, I find it a little odd that your articulate 62 posts seem to be mostly (or exclusively?) in the Lounge—with not a single SP review that I could locate.

If sucking up to women's agenda is your thing, I can only wish you good luck. You'll need it, brother.

I use the term "brother" loosely here. Frankly, your judgmentalness about non-marrying guys seems somewhat reminiscent of a woman throwing a fit, don't you think?

 

[tantalizeme]

Six tempting relationship setups

In my few spare moments I've been pondering this question: What kind of relationship setup would work better for someone like me than marriage?

Two things are certain. NEVER AGAIN do I want a live-in GF breathing down my neck. And UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES could I ever imagine giving up SPs.

So far I've come up with 6 possibilities that might tempt me. Don't know any handy labels for them, so I'll just number them.

Possibility 1: A GF who continues to live in her own place and is okay with me seeing SPs.
We get together, say, max 3 nights on weekdays and for part of the weekend. I've permission to poon as much as I can afford. She can fuck whoever she wants, too.

(Basically the arrangement I've had for a few years, but it's not stable—she wants too much time and control. Her sexual motivation, too, has really gone downhill.)

Possibility 2: A GF who's willing to experiment with polyamory.
Ideally, she's not only willing to let me have affairs with other civvies, but joins in for 3-somes or moresomes—and visits to swinger clubs.

Trouble is, I've never met a woman whose sexuality was robust enough for this option.

Possibility 3: Two bisexual GFs who have lesbian sex with each other and include me as their male significant other.
Much as this option would appeal to me, it's probably just a porn-type fantasy. Truly bisexual women who'd like this kind of setup seem to be an extreme rarity.

Possibility 4: A series of successive or overlapping fuck buddy arrangements
This could involve friends-with-benefits or "casual encounters" of the sort advertised on Craigslist. There'd be no mutual expectation of monogamy, but obviously, a strict need for safe sex.

Possibility 5: Putting on a phony act of being available for romance leading to monogamous commitment
I could certainly pretend to be interested in marriage-oriented romance—and, when the lady gets clingy after a few lays, I'd just have to dump her. There seem to be lots of relationship-hungry ladies, and being a little beyond midlife myself, I'm not too hung up on age or looks.

I'd much prefer honesty. But women dump men all the time who don't fit their requirements—so there's no need for guilt on the part of men who choose this option.

Possibility 6: Increasingly forget about relationships with civvies and semi-retire to Asia
This is quite a tempting default option as I approach retirement age. SPs in Asia are vastly cheaper and, in my eyes, prettier. But while I need to work, relying for my sex life exclusively on SPs—even $120 Asians—isn't really feasible.

Anyone has any better ideas?

 

[Georgieboy69]

In my few spare moments I've been pondering this question: What kind of relationship setup would work better for someone like me than marriage?

Two things are certain. NEVER AGAIN do I want a live-in GF breathing down my neck. And UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES could I ever imagine giving up SPs.

So far I've come up with 6 possibilities that might tempt me. Don't know any handy labels for them, so I'll just number them.

Possibility 1: A GF who continues to live in her own place and is okay with me seeing SPs.
We get together, say, max 3 nights on weekdays and for part of the weekend. I've permission to poon as much as I can afford. She can fuck whoever she wants, too.

(Basically the arrangement I've had for a few years, but it's not stable—she wants too much time and control. Her sexual motivation, too, has really gone downhill.)

Possibility 2: A GF who's willing to experiment with polyamory.
Ideally, she's not only willing to let me have affairs with other civvies, but joins in for 3-somes or moresomes—and visits to swinger clubs.

Trouble is, I've never met a woman whose sexuality was robust enough for this option.

Possibility 3: Two bisexual GFs who have lesbian sex with each other and include me as their male significant other.
Much as this option would appeal to me, it's probably just a porn-type fantasy. Truly bisexual women who'd like this kind of setup seem to be an extreme rarity.

Possibility 4: A series of successive or overlapping fuck buddy arrangements
This could involve friends-with-benefits or "casual encounters" of the sort advertised on Craigslist. There'd be no mutual expectation of monogamy, but obviously, a strict need for safe sex.

Possibility 5: Putting on a phony act of being available for romance leading to monogamous commitment
I could certainly pretend to be interested in marriage-oriented romance—and, when the lady gets clingy after a few lays, I'd just have to dump her. There seem to be lots of relationship-hungry ladies, and being a little beyond midlife myself, I'm not too hung up on age or looks.

I'd much prefer honesty. But women dump men all the time who don't fit their requirements—so there's no need for guilt on the part of men who choose this option.

Possibility 6: Increasingly forget about relationships with civvies and semi-retire to Asia
This is quite a tempting default option as I approach retirement age. SPs in Asia are vastly cheaper and, in my eyes, prettier. But while I need to work, relying for my sex life exclusively on SPs—even $120 Asians—isn't really feasible.

Anyone has any better ideas?

My only question based on what I have read is this... Why are you even thinking of having any relationship period. You want to see SP's and that is great keep doing so. But if your not really interested in a relationship why even talk about it, just keep seeing SP's and have your fun?

I personally think you actually really want a true relationship but are afraid to get into one for whatever reason.

I've pooner for many years, while I was married and even now that I am not. I am enjoying my single life but am now feeling more and more that I want to be in a deep relationship again. Would I continue pooning? Not sure!

 

[the old maxx50]

And that is why i like the company of girls that i met in the escort business .
There are few pretence we can have an honest conversation about our sexuality .And generally about relationships..
We talk about sny thing and everything I guess because we are frienfs and not sex partners
Of course I have become very open minded and accepting because of what I have seen and heardje
I am not going to find that out there in the everydsy women ..and the funny thing is i find that th relationships that escorts pick are with guys that arevnot as open minded or have not even seen or accept what they do
I ki d of think that honesty is gone when they cant be totally honest about thier past
I have allway held that we are the sum of all we go through and do ..and that is the person that we are attracted to and need to accept

 

[tantalizeme]

It's not all-or-nothing

My only question based on what I have read is this... Why are you even thinking of having any relationship period. You want to see SP's and that is great keep doing so. But if your not really interested in a relationship why even talk about it, just keep seeing SP's and have your fun?

I personally think you actually really want a true relationship but are afraid to get into one for whatever reason.

I've pooner for many years, while I was married and even now that I am not. I am enjoying my single life but am now feeling more and more that I want to be in a deep relationship again. Would I continue pooning? Not sure!

Hey Gorgieboy,

Thanks for your response; very much to the point!

Just to correct a misperception—I'm not opposed to "love." I experience this oxytocin-fueled emotion all the time, often even with SPs during moments of post-coital euphoria.

But I've been through too many long-term relationships that became emotionally deep and sexually shitty.

There's a famous song with the line, "Love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage." Falser words were never spoken.

Despite all the cultural garbage we've been taught, I'm now convinced that passionate love flourishes better in non-monogamous relationships than in a sleep-together-for-a-lifetime-in-the-same-bed marriage.

The idea that having a "true relationship" and diversified sexual outlets is a mutually exclusive either/or decision strikes me as one of the worst mistakes a man can make in life. Giving in to female pressure in this respect is a bonanza for divorce lawyers.

 

[Pillowtalk]

My only question based on what I have read is this... Why are you even thinking of having any relationship period. You want to see SP's and that is great keep doing so. But if your not really interested in a relationship why even talk about it, just keep seeing SP's and have your fun?

I personally think you actually really want a true relationship but are afraid to get into one for whatever reason.

I've pooner for many years, while I was married and even now that I am not. I am enjoying my single life but am now feeling more and more that I want to be in a deep relationship again. Would I continue pooning? Not sure!

His motive for a relationship is simple: Free sex. God help her if she wanted him to actually like her. He seems filled with resentment that he actually admits to pretend to like any woman who will provide it for him in the first place.


What I don't understand is why he constantly blames women for this problem he has, and accuses them so consistently with pressuring, refusing, or whatever other excuse he claims they come up with to stop having free sex with him. I think that if someone treats you with contempt, hatred and pouts when you don't put out, that more than likely you too would stop providing the free sex for that kind of, let's face it, selfish and narcissitic guy.

I also don't understand why he thinks he is entitled to anything from women, when he seems to resent their very existence lol

 

[AA_Train]

Part of the reason there is a lack of honesty between the sexes is because we all want the love fantasy and not the love reality. The love fantasy is all that romantic goopey crap that hallmark has been shoving down our throats for years. It's where our partners are always perfect and always sweet and always charming. The love reality is having to deal with your partner on bad days, or through illness or tragedy or whatever. True love is accepting other peoples flaws and saying "meh" because at the end of the day, all those flaws are worth dealing with as opposed to not having that person in your life at all. People try to hide these flaws initially to attract mates, which is understandable. But once these flaw are exposed, it is expected that you have to make a wholesale change in order to maintain compatibility. In most situations, it is the man that has to make more adjustments than the woman and the man just has to accept a woman for how she is and conform to her vision of how he should be, which is wrong. Both people need to make negotiated adjustments to each other.

People can't be forced to change. They have to make that decision within and it takes time. I always say that if a woman asks me to change something about myself, then she has to do the same. If she can't, then she is not the person for me. Relationships are partnerships and in no way should one person have their identity co-opted in order to make it work.

My philosophy is this: I'll be me and you be you and we will see how that works out. Trying to be somebody else for somebody else is exhausting and ultimately destined to fail.

 

[lenny]

He is quite the gentlemen and a very kind man. Tant I do hope you do not mind I posted this.
That is all, I have to say.

I think this is glaringly apparent from his posting history to anyone who has at least one good eye that is half open.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

“Well, I want a relationship that’s loving and passionate, but my partner and I allow each other to have sex with other people too."

If this statement was said on its own (without the follow-up line which served only to shock) it is actually extremely honest, and could possibly be well received by most women. In fact, a guy that could utter such an honest statement would completely have my respect. Compare that to the guy that pretends to want the strappings of a typical relationship, only to have one thing on his agenda: pussy. Now that pisses me off!

What I hear tant saying is that, if I'm honest, I won't get much free pussy. Well, what's more important to you? The honesty, or the free pussy? If it's the honesty that you truly and authentically desire, then say it, say it, and say it some more.

Sadly, what I think I hear you saying is that I want free pussy, and unfortunately, I can't be honest with women, or I won't get any.

I truly believe that there are women who don't want a relationship, but they do want free dick. A guy might have to be good-looking, or well dressed, or drive a hot car (sorrow but sex-seeking tends to bring out the worst in both genders) to qualify. Maybe the numbers aren't high, but the ladies are out there.

Matthew:

Kobe:

Ladies, will you turn down free sex from these strapping males? Or, if they tell you that 'I want a relationship that’s loving and passionate, but my partner and I allow each other to have sex with other people too', will you say nope, it's marriage and committed monogamy, or nothing, take it or leave it? Yeah, right!

 

[dojin]

I’ve been on an honesty binge lately.

Will men ever be able to be honest with women about their sexuality? Can women stand the truth about men’s fantasies? Or is the need for hypocrisy between the sexes going to be endless?

I will answer the questions you originally posed Tant as I have thought on these lines for a while.
Mostly no to the first question because of mostly yes to the second. I am quite honest with my friends with what I look for (similar to Tant's ideal situations) and honest to the FWBs that I have. The ones that have the most trouble with my honesty are the FWBs(all female) and almost all my female friends.

There are two roads that I could take from that anecdotal point. First, be honest and get less 'tang or lie and "play the game".
I've mostly stuck to the honest part. The usual comment I get behind my back is, "man he must be broken or something".

As for Tant's possible notion of going abroad to retire in an Asian country. You should try a month or two of it before going all out. Your ideals are less accepted among the general population in Asia than in Europe and NA (not counting SPs of course).

 

[PlayfulAlex]

I enjoy honesty, no matter what is between your legs. I am a straight shooter, blunt when the situation calls for it, and will always give you the real deal. I cannot stand fakes. And I don't think there has to be a gender gap, or inequality, or whatever you want to call it when it comes to honesty. People are people

Yes, honesty is the best policy, regardless of gender.

That's why it really bugs me when I meet someone, and they tell me one thing...then, after I get to know them better, they tell me something that is the direct opposite of what they told me originally.

So, to get in my pants, he'll tell me that he's looking for a committed monogamous relationship. Once we're together, he says, hey let's check out that swingers party! Fuck! If you had told me that you were into swinging, that you still wanted lots of sexual variety and didn't want to settle down sexually with just one lady, I would still have liked and respected you, maybe even fucked you! But now I hate you because you scammed me into getting into a close relationship with you, only to spring this on me once you got what you wanted! Get lost, asshole!

Sorry, little vent over... :nod:

 

[tantalizeme]

Characters on this Board

Tanta..

“Personally, I avoid marriage like the plague. I often pay women for sex. It’s really the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy, satisfying sex life, without undue complications.”

greatest line ever. Loved it so much it's now part of my signature.. BRAVO. summed up perfectly tantalizme

As comments in this thread illustrate, there're several types of interesting characters on this Board:

The male-sympathetic female type: cuteangie, PlayfulAlex & Missy Mariposa all embody this type. They've learnt to deal with men the way we really are, and they try to offer us terms of affiliation that are mutually beneficial.

BTW, I thank PlayfulAlex for the photos of those 2 dudes with ripped chests—even though their cocks look to me rather small.

The male-bashing female type: This type is eloquently represented by our resident sourpuss Pillowtalk.

Rather than applying her considerable smarts to the topic at hand—how men and women can be more honest with each other—she sidetracks the discussion and casts aspersions. Since when do we unabashed horndogs have something to apologize for on an escort review board?

Obviously, Pillow's characteristic brand of self-righteousness is just a projection of her own inner demons. I know it's easy for someone who doesn't get much fun in life to resent those who do. So I take Pillow's needling as her sincerest form of flattery. If she agreed with me, I'd probably think I'm wrong.

The sexually wounded type: These are libido-challenged guys like Georgieboy69 or filmgeek who've absorbed the negative cultural stereotypes about sex and wax sentimental about love. They're generally quick to condemn other men who're more highly sexed, or for whom love isn't the ultimate goal or a big problem.

Most women are love junkies, so I've never had much of a problem getting love: the bottleneck was always quality sex.

Sex in long-term relationships inevitably goes stale, and women in love have a way of wanting to turn their guy into a monogamous beta male. And to make matters worse, to the extent women succeed in their project and change their man into a docile, adoring monogamist, they often lose sexual interest in him!

The sexually healthy type: Here I'd have to include AA_Train, Lenny, BadgerJohn and myself.

Some people get the single most important dose of life's meaning from their jobs, or a hobby like golf, or from shopping, or from raising a brood of kids. Well, some of us—and this illustrious company includes no lesser lights than authors Naomi Wolf and Serge Kreuz—get it from the many varieties of erotic passion.

But there's just no realistic way for most men—especially those beyond a certain age who aren't ridiculously rich or otherwise unusually endowed—to satisfy their sexual appetite without availing themselves of paid erotic services. (This is convincingly argued, with empirical support, e.g. in Catherine Hakim's book Sexual Capital.)

---
I thank fellow PERB members who're in favor of women and men being more honest with each other. And perhaps, just perhaps, we can figure out how women and men can have good relationships that don't involve monogamy?