The thing to remember is that Canada was willing to allow Chinese that paid the Head Tax to come in until 1923. Once the railroad was built the government made it illegal for any asian to immigrate to Canada from 1923 to 1947. This made it impossible for the Chinese who were legally here to bring their families into Canada. If the person left Canada, they would not be allowed back in.
Government to apologize for Head Tax
- Thread starter sdw
- Start date
Thanks Wilde
As for idiots like gravitas, important fact the head tax shit didn't happen hundreds or thousands of years ago, there are approx 400 of them alive right now? As for the $48,000.00, how much easier would it be for each one of those grandfather/grandmother aged chinese to live out their lives now if they didn't have to pay that tax. Or for that matter, how much further ahead would their children be...
I complain about taxes... yes, mainly when it goes out to all those under 50 who don't want to break a fucken sweat! I see no problems in compensating people who got fucked by the gov't and ARE STILL ALIVE!
As for idiots like gravitas, important fact the head tax shit didn't happen hundreds or thousands of years ago, there are approx 400 of them alive right now? As for the $48,000.00, how much easier would it be for each one of those grandfather/grandmother aged chinese to live out their lives now if they didn't have to pay that tax. Or for that matter, how much further ahead would their children be...
I complain about taxes... yes, mainly when it goes out to all those under 50 who don't want to break a fucken sweat! I see no problems in compensating people who got fucked by the gov't and ARE STILL ALIVE!
And let it be known that the issue of compensation caused a major rift within the various redress groups. In essence, one side felt that a simple but sincere apology would suffice. The other side wanted compensation which IMHO, is not totally unfair if you present value the head tax paid back then to today's dollar. Reading some of the posts in this thread, you would think that there is a bunch of Chinese people sitting around looking for a handout. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I see a lot of intolerance in this thread. Just remember, unless you are a native, you or one of your fore fathers was an immigrant as well.
I see a lot of intolerance in this thread. Just remember, unless you are a native, you or one of your fore fathers was an immigrant as well.
You really are a bright light aren't you. How does your above comment do anything to either bolster your mixed argument (paying compensation out of public funds is good, taxes are bad) or do anything to advance the discussion of the issue at hand? How is paying compensation, particularly when its a pittance like $10k - $21k, to the surviving immigrants or their families going to accomplish anything? If the government or the ones impacted wanted to do something genuine with this money they'd fund immigrant education or integration programs.peety said:
Once again you speak with a total lack of intelligence and credibility. Look at the budget allocation before you run off at the mouth.peety said:
<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-4/688404/2006budget.jpg' width=665 height=310 >
Yes, I'm a first generation Canadian. No where in my families history did anyone do anything to suppress, tax or otherwise harm Canadian native Indians.wilde said:
I'm tolerant only to the point of willing to make fair and reasonable retribution to any individual or group harmed by the actions of others. Clearly what happened to the Chinese immigrants and the head tax was an injustice and I applaud the current government for actually doing something about it and not just paying it lip service.
However, with natives I think the non-indigenous population has gone out of their way in the past 40 to 60 years to make right on previous abuses. As a population I fail to see how they can argue for self-government and still look for excessive compensation and social funding.
I happen to agree with you here. No timetable or outline had ever been set for compensation for the sorry history of abuse and systematic extermination of natives in Canada. Lacking a timetable or outline, compensation is poured into a never-ending black hole which, in the end, appears to propagate the problem of ghettoization rather than integration. Self-government is thus the ultimate payout, and the anti-thesis of pluralism. I think it is safe to say that aboriginals today have the same opportunities for a successful life in a pluralistic Canada as any other ethnic minority. This should be the guideline for compensation to stop.gravitas said:
Wilde!
Dang Wilde, great post! Obviously you know a lot about the issue. I knew all about the contribution of Chinese to the railway, the importance of the railway to the nation, and the poor treatment of the Chinese workers, but I knew very little about the rest of it. Thanks for the lesson in recent history!
I'm really not a Harper fan (although I've been forced to admit that so far he's been doing a better job than I expected), but he's absolutely right when he says that it's more meaningful to have some redress while some of the people who suffered are still alive. IMO an apology is fine at any time, but compensation is really only meaningful while the wronged party is still alive.
And that's one of the many differences between the head tax situation and the first nations situation. In fact, the situations are so different, I don't even know why we're discussing them in the same thread.
Since we are discussing both topics, however...
OK, here's my take on the first nations issue. It should be clear to everybody by now that the status quo solution status sucks The problem is that rather than addressing any real issues, what we're currently doing is simply training the first nations people to rely on government handouts their whole life. This creates a lack of motivation amongst them to actually be self-sufficient, partly because they simply don't have to, and partly because by treating them so differently, we're essentially telling them that the rest of the nation doesn't believe that they're capable of making it without our handouts.
So, what should we do instead? Well first off, we should damn well stop having seperate rules for first nations compared to members of any other ethnic group. It's flat-out racist.
Second, we need to abolish reservations. They're ghettos with another name. Instead, I would suggest that each reservation would be changed such that it is considered private property owned co-operatively by members of the band. The land would then be run just like any other co-op, with no special rules.
What about the whole native-fishery issue? It's another racist policy. I have no problem with allowing first nations people to fish enough to provide their own food (in fact, I think everyone should be able to do that), but commercial fishing is another story entirely. Make them follow the same fishery rules as other races.
OK, so that's what we should stop doing. So what should we do instead? The number one priority should be to PROVIDE BETTER EDUCATION!! The high school drop-out rates amongst first nations are abominable. Is that because they're dumber than the rest of the population? Of course not! It's because the government handouts simultaneously reduce their self-esteem and make them feel that they have less need to go to school! OK, it's more complex than that, but IMO that's the biggest issue. High school isn't the only problem either. We need to get more first nations going to university, college, or trade schools. How do we increase their access to post-secondary education? Well making sure that they all get to the post-secondary stage in the first place is a damn good start.
So do I have all the answers? Of course not. I fully expect that there are issues at work that I don't know about. Despite that, I'm convinced that the fundamentals of my ideas are sound, and would make for a FAR more equal society, including a significantly higher standard of living for the average first nations person.
Oh, and for the record, I'm a first-generation Canadian. My parents immigrated from Europe, and were dirt poor for years until they managed to eventually build a good life for themselves and their family. They did it without any handouts from anyone, but they also did it without being shoved down by anyone. That's the opportunity that everybody should be given.
Dang Wilde, great post! Obviously you know a lot about the issue. I knew all about the contribution of Chinese to the railway, the importance of the railway to the nation, and the poor treatment of the Chinese workers, but I knew very little about the rest of it. Thanks for the lesson in recent history!
I'm really not a Harper fan (although I've been forced to admit that so far he's been doing a better job than I expected), but he's absolutely right when he says that it's more meaningful to have some redress while some of the people who suffered are still alive. IMO an apology is fine at any time, but compensation is really only meaningful while the wronged party is still alive.
And that's one of the many differences between the head tax situation and the first nations situation. In fact, the situations are so different, I don't even know why we're discussing them in the same thread.
Since we are discussing both topics, however...
OK, here's my take on the first nations issue. It should be clear to everybody by now that the status quo solution status sucks
The problem is that rather than addressing any real issues, what we're currently doing is simply training the first nations people to rely on government handouts their whole life. This creates a lack of motivation amongst them to actually be self-sufficient, partly because they simply don't have to, and partly because by treating them so differently, we're essentially telling them that the rest of the nation doesn't believe that they're capable of making it without our handouts. So, what should we do instead? Well first off, we should damn well stop having seperate rules for first nations compared to members of any other ethnic group. It's flat-out racist.
Second, we need to abolish reservations. They're ghettos with another name. Instead, I would suggest that each reservation would be changed such that it is considered private property owned co-operatively by members of the band. The land would then be run just like any other co-op, with no special rules.
What about the whole native-fishery issue? It's another racist policy. I have no problem with allowing first nations people to fish enough to provide their own food (in fact, I think everyone should be able to do that), but commercial fishing is another story entirely. Make them follow the same fishery rules as other races.
OK, so that's what we should stop doing. So what should we do instead? The number one priority should be to PROVIDE BETTER EDUCATION!! The high school drop-out rates amongst first nations are abominable. Is that because they're dumber than the rest of the population? Of course not! It's because the government handouts simultaneously reduce their self-esteem and make them feel that they have less need to go to school! OK, it's more complex than that, but IMO that's the biggest issue. High school isn't the only problem either. We need to get more first nations going to university, college, or trade schools. How do we increase their access to post-secondary education? Well making sure that they all get to the post-secondary stage in the first place is a damn good start.
So do I have all the answers? Of course not. I fully expect that there are issues at work that I don't know about. Despite that, I'm convinced that the fundamentals of my ideas are sound, and would make for a FAR more equal society, including a significantly higher standard of living for the average first nations person.
Oh, and for the record, I'm a first-generation Canadian. My parents immigrated from Europe, and were dirt poor for years until they managed to eventually build a good life for themselves and their family. They did it without any handouts from anyone, but they also did it without being shoved down by anyone. That's the opportunity that everybody should be given.
It's no surprise that when a gov't goes out of the way for an apology for a certain group that it creates resentment from other groups. While I some what agree with an apology, it's rather difficult to agree with the monetary compensation seeing as back then when the gov't imposed the tax then the gov't found out the chinese could 'afford' the tax it was jacked up and when it was still paid up it went until it was at $500. Back in the day $500 was a lot of money. One person who borrowed the money from family took 2 years to pay it back.
I'm sure this subject puts a lot of strain on a current gov't to apologise for their predecessors past transgression.
I'm sure this subject puts a lot of strain on a current gov't to apologise for their predecessors past transgression.
You're right, I don't. I missed all the finance classes when I was doing my MBAwilde said:You obviously have no concpet for the time value of money cause the interest is what kills you.
Just another example of how those 3 particular letters have no meaning. A master's degree in the discipline of business yet no understanding of finance. That's real bright.HeMadeMeDoIt said:You're right, I don't. I missed all the finance classes when I was doing my MBA
