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Ghomeshi will be acquitted

CJ Tylers

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Predators choose their victims for various reasons, and not all damaged people come from broken backgrounds. Ever wonder why some women put up with jerk boyfriends? Or why other women stay married to men that systematically beat them every day? It's because those predators know how to turn on the charm, twist their prey around their fingers, and keep them dangling in the wind.

This usually lasts until something breaks, or someone else steps in and breaks the cycle for them. I have witnessed it happen a few times in my personal circle, and none of those people came from low income, broken, or abusive homes... they just had low self esteem, which their abusers took advantage of. I'm sure someone who deals with these abuse victims can provide you with accurate details and other researched data.
 

Tugela

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And you wonder why the majority don't ever file a complaint

Cosby supporter too? :rolleyes:
Presumption of victimhood requires presumption of guilt in most sexual assault allegations. The two go hand in hand, because in most cases there is no physical or forensic evidence, it is just she said/he said. But the criminal justice system requires presumption of innocence. That is the big problem in the majority of cases like this.

And incidentally, one should not assume that allegations are true in the case of well known personalities simply because a lot of people make them. I think in situations where one person makes an allegation in the media, then all of a sudden all sorts of people start coming out of the woodwork, you should be very suspicious of that since there a lot of motivations for people to make stuff up. For example, does everyone remember our good friend Josh Duggar? After accounts of him molesting his sisters when he was a kid came out, a porn star named Danica Dillon filed suit claiming that he sexually assaulted her multiple times. But apparently she has now admitted she lied after being confronted with proof that what she says happened did not happen (http://www.tmz.com/2016/02/05/josh-duggar-danica-dillon-case-dismissed/). So this sort of stuff does happen, and it would not surprise me if most (if not all) of these "me too" allegations we almost always hear after an initial allegation of fabricated or embellished.
 

Tugela

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Predators choose their victims for various reasons, and not all damaged people come from broken backgrounds. Ever wonder why some women put up with jerk boyfriends? Or why other women stay married to men that systematically beat them every day? It's because those predators know how to turn on the charm, twist their prey around their fingers, and keep them dangling in the wind.

This usually lasts until something breaks, or someone else steps in and breaks the cycle for them. I have witnessed it happen a few times in my personal circle, and none of those people came from low income, broken, or abusive homes... they just had low self esteem, which their abusers took advantage of. I'm sure someone who deals with these abuse victims can provide you with accurate details and other researched data.
You can't use anecdotal arguments like that about the behavior of some people and extrapolate it to all people. What happened to someone else is not evidence of what happened between these two people.

In terms of evidence, what is relevant is the credibility of the allegations (of events that happened a very long time ago). The nature of these subsequent social interactions is not consistent with an egregious assault having taken place a short time previously. That should be sufficient to put the credibility of the allegations into question.

Given the time lapse involved overall, the options are (A) there was no assault; (B) there was an assault; or (C) there was no assault, but over time as the long term relationship dissolved, the nature of the intimate relationship became perceived as assault (a revisionist recollection of events, in other words). Scenario C is VERY common, not just in sexual matters, but in all other social endeavors as well.

Based on what has been presented in trial, it would appear that (C) is the more likely scenario.
 

thodisipagal

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Oct 23, 2010
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You can't use anecdotal arguments like that about the behavior of some people and extrapolate it to all people. What happened to someone else is not evidence of what happened between these two people.

In terms of evidence, what is relevant is the credibility of the allegations (of events that happened a very long time ago). The nature of these subsequent social interactions is not consistent with an egregious assault having taken place a short time previously. That should be sufficient to put the credibility of the allegations into question.

Given the time lapse involved overall, the options are (A) there was no assault; (B) there was an assault; or (C) there was no assault, but over time as the long term relationship dissolved, the nature of the intimate relationship became perceived as assault (a revisionist recollection of events, in other words). Scenario C is VERY common, not just in sexual matters, but in all other social endeavors as well.

Based on what has been presented in trial, it would appear that (C) is the more likely scenario.
Exactly. Very well put.

Often, we conflate defense counsel's work with endorsement of misogyny and violence against women. Marie Henein is doing neither. She is doing her wok as a defense lawyer skillfully with just one goal and one goal alone: To raise a reasonable doubt and get acquittal for her client. She is not out to prevent the world from ending misogyny and sexual violence against women. And, therefore, we should refrain from conflating evidence related to a specific case with anecdotal evidences. Anecdotal evidences make for an interesting gossip material, but make for poor evidence or even inadmissible in court.

One point I want to make here, though, is with respect to the evidences (emails, letter, and photograph) presented by defense that, according to some media, apparently surprised the prosecution. Court proceedings rely heavily on a process called discovery. Any incriminating evidence discovered by prosecution must be shared with defense. This usually happens during the pre-trial phase. Traditionally, defense was not required to share evidence with prosecution; but increasingly for the fairness of the trial, judges often enforce reciprocal discovery, a process under which both sides have to share evidence. I don't know if the trial judge in this case made that ruling, but I would be surprises if the judge wasn't already aware of the evidences Marie Henein presented before the court. It is unclear if the prosecution was aware or was not. Regardless of whether prosecution was or was not aware of the damaging evidence, prosecution has so far displayed incompetency.

Plus, Lucy DeCoutere's lawyer, Gillian Hnatiw, read a statement to media yesterday after the proceedings, trying to undercut Marie Henein's evidence. Hnatiw said, "Violence against women is not about the behaviour of the women. It is not about how they cope with an assault or the details they commit to memory in the aftermath." That's interesting. Is she trying to turn this case into activism against violence against women? This case, any case, is about proving guilt or innocence.

When lawyers, media, public and Perberts start assuming that there is a "monster", a "slimeball", a "predator", a "pervert" or whatever because there is somebody who says she was victimized, then we are turning the fundamental basis of our legal system on its head--That you are innocent until somebody proves you guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Trials are fought in court of law, not in court of public perception or assumption.
 

CJ Tylers

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You can't use anecdotal arguments like that about the behavior of some people and extrapolate it to all people. What happened to someone else is not evidence of what happened between these two people.

In terms of evidence, what is relevant is the credibility of the allegations (of events that happened a very long time ago). The nature of these subsequent social interactions is not consistent with an egregious assault having taken place a short time previously. That should be sufficient to put the credibility of the allegations into question.

Given the time lapse involved overall, the options are (A) there was no assault; (B) there was an assault; or (C) there was no assault, but over time as the long term relationship dissolved, the nature of the intimate relationship became perceived as assault (a revisionist recollection of events, in other words). Scenario C is VERY common, not just in sexual matters, but in all other social endeavors as well.

Based on what has been presented in trial, it would appear that (C) is the more likely scenario.

Uh...That's why I said someone who actually deals with people like that could actually provide documented research, rather than my own personal experience. It is a repeatable, observable occurrence, through which the predators pattern (his personal profile) emerges.

I did not extrapolate it to "all people". What I said was that predators tend to have particular victim profile in mind, and that they seek out targets that fit that profile.

So, I'm saying that people that fit that behavior have it apply to them. Whether or not that profile fits the women accusing him, well, I'll leave that up to a psychiatrist.

Also, I did say that there is a lack of hard evidence earlier, and that the scum bag will likely get off. I originally believed he was innocent. I even rolled my eyes and thought "oh, here we go again...another money grab like the Cosby detractors (hmmm)".

Then I read his public statement, and my take on the matter did a complete 180. He's guilty, probably of everything....but he won't suffer one day in jail for it. What a shame.
 

rexxx

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I believe he also has a couple of women who are willing to testify that they engaged in rough sex with him and that it was all consensual he's going to walk. I don't see any way to fix the justice system that would make this woman not get treated like she was this week that letter just completely destroys any credibility she had.
 

sdw

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I believe he also has a couple of women who are willing to testify that they engaged in rough sex with him and that it was all consensual he's going to walk. I don't see any way to fix the justice system that would make this woman not get treated like she was this week that letter just completely destroys any credibility she had.
Ghomeshi's lawyer treated both the first and second complainant the way she did because she had their emails and their pictures. If the prosecutor had known they existed, the prosecutor would have asked the complainant about them during direct examination. That allows the prosecutor to paint the evidence in a more sympathetic manner. However Ghomeshi's lawyer got to paint the evidence in the manner most beneficial to her client because both complainants withheld information from the prosecutor.

This case illuminates exactly why cross examination of the complainant by the defendant's lawyer is necessary. The evidence would not have been introduced otherwise.
 

Tugela

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Uh...That's why I said someone who actually deals with people like that could actually provide documented research, rather than my own personal experience. It is a repeatable, observable occurrence, through which the predators pattern (his personal profile) emerges.

I did not extrapolate it to "all people". What I said was that predators tend to have particular victim profile in mind, and that they seek out targets that fit that profile.

So, I'm saying that people that fit that behavior have it apply to them. Whether or not that profile fits the women accusing him, well, I'll leave that up to a psychiatrist.

Also, I did say that there is a lack of hard evidence earlier, and that the scum bag will likely get off. I originally believed he was innocent. I even rolled my eyes and thought "oh, here we go again...another money grab like the Cosby detractors (hmmm)".

Then I read his public statement, and my take on the matter did a complete 180. He's guilty, probably of everything....but he won't suffer one day in jail for it. What a shame.
I think that everyone can agree that he is guilty of being an arrogant asshole. But he is not being charged with that. Whether is guilty as charged is a different matter however.

As I said, people often have revisionist accounts of history when things start to sour at a later date. It is quite reasonable, given the overall appearances of his character, that he pissed some of these accusers off at a later date and that subsequent accounts from them were based of a re-interpretation of his behavior while still in the relationship. The apparent friendly behavior from them after these supposed assaults took place is consistent with that.

Someone's attitude may be dismissed as cavalier when you are on friendly terms with them, but for most people that same behavior becomes much more sinister when you are not on friendly terms with them. The behavior has not changed, what has changed is your perception of the behavior as a function of the change in your relationship.
 

sdw

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I think that everyone can agree that he is guilty of being an arrogant asshole. But he is not being charged with that. Whether is guilty as charged is a different matter however.

As I said, people often have revisionist accounts of history when things start to sour at a later date. It is quite reasonable, given the overall appearances of his character, that he pissed some of these accusers off at a later date and that subsequent accounts from them were based of a re-interpretation of his behavior while still in the relationship. The apparent friendly behavior from them after these supposed assaults took place is consistent with that.

Someone's attitude may be dismissed as cavalier when you are on friendly terms with them, but for most people that same behavior becomes much more sinister when you are not on friendly terms with them. The behavior has not changed, what has changed is your perception of the behavior as a function of the change in your relationship.
I think that Ghomeshi is one of those guys that lives for the chase. Once he has caught someone, he bores quickly and returns to the chase.
 

Squishy

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Unfortunately I think you're right.

Ironic how Lucy's own letter was eerily prophetic ( " letters are keepers ")

Smug wanker is probably going to get away with it because the prosecution lawyers are being schooled by his lawyer, Marie Henein.


(Guilty admission : is it just me or does anybody else find Marie Henein super fucking hot ? I know. I deserve to burn in hell for that )
 

sdw

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Unfortunately I think you're right.

Ironic how Lucy's own letter was eerily prophetic ( " letters are keepers ")

Smug wanker is probably going to get away with it because the prosecution lawyers are being schooled by his lawyer, Marie Henein.


(Guilty admission : is it just me or does anybody else find Marie Henein super fucking hot ? I know. I deserve to burn in hell for that )
ROFLMAO it won't be just you, I'd think a pretty large portion of human males would agree with you. Might be a little hard to live with tho, especially if she feels the need to cross examine you.
 

thodisipagal

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sofine

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I find Marie hot as well. Also, her assistant is pretty yummy. Love that sexy librarian look :)
 

vancity_cowboy

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i think this case will become a significant part of canadian case law regarding sexual assaults and 'victim shaming'. i sure am glad i'm not the judge!!

regarding the victim shaming, i think the argument that many victims of abuse stay in long term abusive relationships is very true, but perhaps not necessarily applicable in this case

abusive relationships usually start off as normal relationships, then over time the perpetrator, in a state of rage or drunkeness or whatever, snaps and beats his partner. they make up and the cycle starts again

whereas fuckwad roughed his dates up on the first date - hardly part of a long term abusive relationship! they came back for more, which does suggest some degree of complicity in the rough treatment

as i said, the judge has a monumental task here, certainly not one that i would want to have
 

yazoo

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I think that he is not guilty of the DeCoutere charge. It is quite possible - well within a reasonable doubt - that the rough sex was consensual. While consent can be withdrawn at any point during the encounter, it can't be retroactively withdrawn 6 weeks later.

We might have our suspicions, but based on this evidence, he can't be proven guilty.
 

Lo-ki

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Check your closet..:)
I'd have to agree with that ....
 

Caramel

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I only read the letters between Lucy and him, and it sounded like he did beat her up...am I missing something?
 

rexxx

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I only read the letters between Lucy and him, and it sounded like he did beat her up...am I missing something?
She sent him an email the day after the supposed assault that said "You kicked my ass last night and that makes me want to fuck your brains out" as well as the I love your hands comment. I don't know if they will need to but Ghomeshi has former girlfriends who will testify he likes rough sex and that it was completely consensual.
 
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