German law pushes unemployed women into legalized sex trade

[donnyknotts]

Good arguments, Maury. The Canadian double standard around sex for sale is beyond pathetic. Germany has been practical and logical around this issue for a long time already. It is typical for North American puritans to get bent all out of shape over this employment issue as, again, they get manipulated by their sensationalist media.
Grow up already. If it is legal job and you're qualified for it, then why not go and work it? Funny to see so many perberts all "politically correct" over this.

 

[Maury Beniowski]

Prostitution was legalized in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners -- who must pay tax and employee health insurance -- were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

... job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Ulyanova.

When the question of morality is bleached from the article, it is merely a report about someone turning down a job, and that could be any job - embalming, cleaning up hospital biological waste, cleaning pig pens and other less than desirable work. If she got off her butt, and looked for something more suitable on her own, and I'm sure there are jobs in Germany, she might have averted this. Instead, she went to a job centre, probably because her benefits were soon to expire, and was handed what they had available at the time. So off she went screaming to the media, instead of just turning it down, and walking away.

The moral argument is then introduced and applied by the writer, clearly illustrating his bias, and for sensationalist reasons. Morality is a personal question, and even the writer's definition is probably not in step with the woman in question. The job centre is merely applying the law. But we swallow the bait whole here on Perb, of all places, and are applying our moral values, and that is what I am challenging.

When you introduce the gay question, where do you go next? Sex with animals? What does gay sex have to do with the article you brought up?

On the other hand (no pun, Bull), if I was offered a job in a brothel servicing women, I think I might have a go at it; after consulting with Father O'Reilly on Sunday after Holy Mass, of course...

 

[Bull]

On the other hand (no pun, Bull), if I was offered a job in a brothel servicing women, I think I might have a go at it; after consulting with Father O'Reilly on Sunday after Holy Mass, of course...

But would you fill the job opening at the gay brothel (after consulting with Father O'Flanagan, of course)?

 

[JFK]

Most likely this is one of the journalistic hoax to prove how USA is superior to europe.
I do not believe that German goverment actually asked a woman to work as prostitute but they asked her to work in brothel in another position (may be bartender or waitress), which is very reasonable and if she refuses then they should cut her unemployment benefit.
Brothels in Germany are not like your incall places in Vancouver, they have Bar (customer actually gets free drinks) and some even have pool and sauna, it is kind of like a SPA/ bar with sex as added benefit.
The problem in Europe is that most of these countries believe that unemployed people should have reasonable life (not like USA/Canada) and the money that people get from goverment is almost the same as you had a minimum pay job.
This situation has caused that many people do not want to work and now the goverment has to force them.
Couple of years ago, I was working with a European company and some time I would get resumes that people wrote that they did not want to work and the only reason they are sending the resume; is because they have to in order to get their monthly check.
Another time, I asked a woman who came to interview when she can start and she answered may be after she takes 2 month summer vacation, the only problem was that she was unemplyed for 2 1/2 years prior to interview and she needed a vacation???

 

[Maury Beniowski]

But would you fill the job opening at the gay brothel (after consulting with Father O'Flanagan, of course)?

Of course Bull, provided you're my only client! I've got all kinds of things I'd like to stick in you!

 

[Bull]

What's your rate? Any reviews? Do you offer BFE?

 

[Maury Beniowski]

This reminds me of a story I heard years ago; I don't remember the poet or the author who penned it, but it goes something like this:

In trying to determine if the Queen of England could be characterized as a prostitute, the writer hypothesized asking her if she would sleep with him were he to pay her a hefty sum of say, 100,000 Pounds, upon which she would flatly refuse him. The fact that he would have gained a refusal from her at that price would then open the door to raising the ante indefinitely until she agreed to do so, pointing out in the end that every man or woman has his/her price, and proving that we are all prostitutes of a sort or another.

Footnote: If anyone has heard this story before, please let me know. I keep thinking it was Walt Whitman, but correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Hennesy]

Here's a later article on the same news story. It's not nearly so inflammatory.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50900&id=2005020110190002801477

Tuesday, Feb. 1, 2005
Prostitute Sees Sex Trade Hope for Jobless

BERLIN Jan 31 (Reuters) - A celebrated Berlin prostitute said Monday that German job center advisers shouldn't shy away from offering jobs in the sex industry to the long-term unemployed.

Molly Luft, who sold her famous Berlin brothel two months ago and now runs a bar in the city's lively Kreuzberg district, said the sex industry was always looking for new recruits.

"Why shouldn't they send the unemployed to work in the sex industry? Before it was a gray zone, but now employees are insured and receive benefits," Luft told Reuters. "People would no longer be unemployed and could earn themselves a living."

Most business sectors in Germany are shedding workers, and unemployment is expected to exceed five million, nearly 11 percent of the workforce, in January for the first time since reunification in 1990.

German sex workers have been on a par with any other employee since the government legalized prostitution in 2001. They are entitled to social security benefits and pay taxes.

Registered brothel keepers also believe they have a right to seek new staff through job centers and have been scouring job seekers' databases for suitable matches.

"I was always looking for workers over 30 years in the trade. People aren't willing to work very much but they expect to earn a lot of money," Luft said.

A spokesman for the Federal Labor Office said that if job seekers said they were prepared to work as, for example, dancers in strip bars, advisers could put them in touch with any suitable employers, but vacancies would not be displayed in job centers.

He also stressed job centers would not look for prostitutes on behalf of brothels, nor offer sex industry jobs to people who hadn't specifically mentioned it as an area of interest.

Speculation has grown over recent weeks that Germany's new welfare reforms, obliging the long-term unemployed to take any available job or risk losing their benefits, could lead to women being offered jobs in the sex industry.

"One can't expect everyone to be prepared to work in the sex industry," Luft said. "Plus if people aren't very attractive they aren't going to make much money," she added.

 

[Bull]

Totally different spin. Particularly this:

A spokesman for the Federal Labor Office said that if job seekers said they were prepared to work as, for example, dancers in strip bars, advisers could put them in touch with any suitable employers, but vacancies would not be displayed in job centers.

He also stressed job centers would not look for prostitutes on behalf of brothels, nor offer sex industry jobs to people who hadn't specifically mentioned it as an area of interest.

That makes a lot more sense.

 

[Maury Beniowski]

I like this line...

"Plus if people aren't very attractive they aren't going to make much money," she added.

Doh...

Well after that comment, there'll be no need for statisticians?

 

[Bueller]

I read this article a couple of days ago, and my impression after some research was that some mediot either misunderstood some uberright winger's satire and chose to pursue it as a story -- a la look at the levels of moral decay European liberal governments have inspired. Why soon they may even... Or, the writer herself chose to put a "human interest" spin on the article about prostitution potentially entering job banks; that article (or one very much like it), incidentally, was first written a year beforehand shortly after Germany declared prostitution moral.

Perhaps UFI, but The Daily Telegraph is a very right leaning newspaper. Here is the original.

And remember, it's News and that's a product the news media has to market. Facts and Truth aren't as interesting; if they were, reportage would just be another fancy French word.

 

[Bull]

When women are forced to have sex against their will we call it rape. When they do for any form of financial compensation, we call it sexual slavery. No one should be forced to have sex against their will for any reason, period.

Bravo, Silkrose! You've brought out the essential point here very eloquently.

 

[DaBoneman]

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if these people are born without even the potential in their genetic make up to understand the concept of human rights

DON'T MENTION THE WAR!!!

 

[[Server Error]]

When women are forced to have sex against their will we call it rape. When they do it for any form of financial compensation, we call it sexual slavery. No one should be forced to have sex against their will for any reason, period.

When men are forced to have sex against their will, it is also called rape. No one should be forced to do anything against their will for anyreason.

Just because someone decided that brothels in Germany were legal employers doesn't make it okay to call this acceptable employment for all women. It's not. The men aren't being forced to work as male prostitutes or in any equally undesirable form of employment and until they are, this is sexual discrimination against women. Are lesbians also being forced to work in brothels that entertain men or risk having their unemployment benefits cut? Then they're being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation.

It seems several assumptions are made here. Whether or not working in a brothel, as any other job, is acceptable is dependent on the individual. Some people do, some don't, and the rest probably don't care one way or the other.

The article does not state that men are not forced into similar situations. Although what you said is certainly possible, it is just as likely that there may be relatively fewer positions available for males to work in these industries, and no employers are recruiting at the moment. I would hardly call this discrimination against gender, but this is only my opinion.

Since Germany does not point a gun at unemployed people, subjecting them into jobs they resent, I would not use the word "force", either. If one has not contributed to the society and has been relying on its welfare for some considerable time, it is natural for the benefit to be cut. Even with benefit cut, unemployed people still have the freedom to choose not to work in any industry; of course, they have to face relevant consequences, but that is something they need to accept. Accusing the government of forcing one into a job one doesn't enjoy is laughable and suspiciously an attempt to shift the responsibility from oneself onto others.

 

[SaraSB]

Pimp is an interesting word. To pimp, to exploit another in anticipation of financial reward. Isn't that exactly what many unscrupulous employers do, particularly those who pay 'salary' wages to avoid paying overtime and get more bang for their buck. Drop the sexual connotation and there you you have capitalism at it's finest.

 

[[Server Error]]

Sorry, but since the apparent consequence mentioned in the article is to have no means of financial support, IOW to live on the street and starve, which is what happens to people with no income, I think "force" is the appropriate term here. Basically, it brings womankind back to a very distant time when women were uneducated and illiterate, had no rights, and their only means of suvival was either marriage or prostitution. Considering that the woman mentioned in the original article is an educated 25-yr-old IT professional, that's pretty sad.

No need to be sorry, this is an open discussion forum Althought it is remotely possible, I really do not think the woman in the article has absolutely no other options but to accept a job in a brothel. Would the entire incident be as much of an issue if the industry she was "forced" into was not sex? If the article had been written, so that all references to jobs were replaced with generic variables X, Y, and Z, would it be able to strike up as much echo as it now does?

And the woman did lower her standards of the jobs she was willing to take when she applied for benefits to increase her chances of getting a job, any job, so she wouldn't be living off of the welfare system for as long as she might have if she had chosen to accept only jobs in Information Technology. She said she was willing to work as a waitress in a bar, which is still a far cry from providing sexual services in a brothel and huge step down from the IT profession.

I actually got the impression from the wording of the article that she had been working as a waitress recently when she was offered the interview in the brothel. Quite possibly, she worked as a waitress previously to put herself through school before she was trained and experienced as an IT professsional, which is likely why she was willing to do it again.

So, what is the real problem here? That the umemployment rate in Germany is at a historical height, at least partially, explains why the woman in the article could not utilise her IT skills in any workplace. At this trying time, it is difficult for people to find and work in a job they like and are trained for. Maybe the IT firms are tight on budget, maybe the local bars are not looking to hire any new waiters, and maybe a brothel happens to have a potential opening around the same time. Just maybes. Does this circumstance not apply to any region with a high unemployment rate? The problem here is that both of us are making assumptions, and conclusions based on them are not reputed to be reliable.

As I recall, the article doesn't state how long she has been on benefits, just that she is in a situation that occurs when people have been on benefits in excess of one year. Given the current unemployment situation in Germany as outlined in the article, the fact that she has been without work for more than a year is not entirely surprising, and may not be through any fault of her own or lack of trying to get work.

To completely remove herself from accepting the responsibility that she is not being employed is immature, IMHO. Even with the dire unemployement situation in Germany, there are still around 90% of the population that have a job to work on.

So for all of you who assumed she was just another slacker trying to cheat the system by living off of it indefinitely, I think that was a gross misjudgment and I suggest you read the original article again in the first post of this thread and in more depth.

I simply stated that she had been removed from the welfare program since she had not contributed for some pre-defined period of time, and I didn't attempt to speculate on her attitude or intention at all.

I also happen to know that there are annual emigration fairs being held in Germany and other countries in Europe including the UK and the Netherlands, which many Germans attend. Germany, like other countries in Europe and Asia, has an over-abundance of skilled workers, but due to a poor economy, lacks sufficient jobs for them. Germany is trying to ease the situation by hosting these fairs and encouraging their skilled workers to emigrate to countries that have the jobs but lack the skilled labour to fill them. Canada is one of these countries.

As I've mentioned, there must be other options available, and these job fairs are definitely worth a try.

 

[rollerboy]

What you are speaking of is an entirely different matter.

As I understand it, she has never been an exotic dancer or any other kind of sex trade worker, she is an Information Technology PROFESSIONAL.

"Entirely different"? Somewhat different, perhaps.

I didn't follow the stripper visa scandal that closely, but I seem to recall that many of the girls in fact had been professionals in other fields, including IT, and that the terms of the visa prohibited them from seeking employment outside of the erotic entainment industry, for which they were being imported.
Many of these girls had also not had any previous experience as sex workers.

So, here are these desparate, unemployed women, seeking to escape poverty. And they get to come to Canada and work, under the condition that they sell their bodies and not try to get straight jobs that they would otherwise be qualified for. That doesn't sound entirely different. Maybe substitute "stripper" for "prostitute" and "work visa" for "higher unemployment benefits".

Also, Germany is a welfare state. Even people no longer eligible for unemployment benefits can still draw welfare benefits. So, no, it's unlikely that she would be "thrown out into the streets."

 

[dbrw42]

Looks like the whole story was a great steaming pile of Bovine Fecal Matter.

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp