Asian Fever

Fidel Castro../..Trudeau

summerbreeze

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couple of problems, one is that the western countries are so paranoid of communism that they will support a corrupt right wing government

another problem is the leadership required to lead a revolution which brings down a corrupt government is not the type of leadership you want to run a country in most cases

these revolutionaries are often in a situation in which there is no middle ground, win or be killed, and winning means taking over the country/government

solve one problem, create another one

at least in Castro's case he did keep the soviets physically out of his country while soliciting and surviving on their military aid, one of the few communist regimes which resisted becoming a complete puppet
 

badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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In Lust Mostly
Probably the landmark year to start analyzing what shit went down when was actually in 1958 with Eisenhower in the Oval Office and Batista the leader of Cuba.

The first volley was actually from the US who refused to honour a contract purchase of 700,000 tons of Cuban Sugar already delivered and shut off all oil shipments to Cuba which was their primary source of energy. In retaliation, the Cuban's now under Castro, unilaterally nationalized the US owned oil refineries.

What else could they do? No revenue to speak of and no control of the oil refineries on their own soil.

From Wiki:

The United States embargo against Cuba (in Cuba called el bloqueo, "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed by the United States on Cuba. An embargo was first imposed by the United States on sale of arms to Cuba on the 14th of March 1958, during the Fulgencio Batista regime. Again on October 19, 1960 (almost two years after the Batista regime was deposed by the Cuban Revolution) the U.S. placed an embargo on exports to Cuba except for food and medicine after Cuba nationalized American-owned Cuban oil refineries without compensation. On February 7, 1962 the embargo was extended to include almost all imports.[1] Currently, the Cuban embargo is enforced mainly through six statutes: the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, the Cuban Assets Control Regulations of 1963, the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, the Helms–Burton Act 1996, and the Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000.[2] The stated purpose of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992 is to maintain sanctions on Cuba so long as the Cuban government refuses to move toward "democratization and greater respect for human rights".[3] The Helms–Burton Act further restricted United States citizens from doing business in or with Cuba, and mandated restrictions on giving public or private assistance to any successor government in Havana unless and until certain claims against the Cuban government were met. In 1999, President Bill Clinton expanded the trade embargo by also disallowing foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies to trade with Cuba. In 2000, Clinton authorized the sale of "humanitarian" U.S. products to Cuba.

Castro didn't have to worry about somebody else destroying Cuba's economy he managed to do that all by himself for 50 years. Anybody that thinks socialist central planning works for a country please give me an example. Castro was responsible for bringing the US and the Soviets to the brink of nuclear war. Anybody that gives him a pass is a fool, of which our foppish pm is a prime example.
The Trade embargo with the largest consumer of products 90 miles north of Havana did have a significant impact upon Cubans. Cuba's only real trading partners were the then Soviet Union, eastern block countries, North Korea and China. More liberal countries like Canada, UK, EU etc traded with them and gladly took their cigars, sugar, rum etc.

The assertion that Castro was responsible for" bringing the US and Soviets to the brink" . . . is the equivalent of saying it was the tribals in Afghanistan who created UBL and they are responsible for 9/11. It is simply not correct. Castro was from 1960 until the demise of the Soviet Union a puppet much like the many puppets the USA had in place to counteract the spread of Communism. He wanted the foreign products, currency and investment in their infrastructure and in return he had to do what the Russians requested.

The Soviets planted the rocket launchers on Cuban soil in retaliation for the US placing missiles facing USSR based in Turkey. Tit for Tat and a very dangerous game the Russians and the Kennedy administration played out in October 1962.
 

CanineCowboy

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Feb 5, 2010
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I appreciate the debate in this topic, it basically defines the geopolitical conflict that is occurring globally.

Personally, I think Fidel was heroic. Most nations that have tried to reject imperialism have failed miserably because the 'West'/Russia/China wouldn't/won't allow them to succeed. Fidel helped move Cuba to be a more equal society, just as Noriega did in Nicaragua. In both countries the US undermined the experiment because it threatened their geopolitical power and their ability to pillage other nation states.

Idealistically, I would like to see the withering of the nation state and have a unified global state ruled by a benevolent dictator - closer in values to Castro then Trump.
 

masterblaster

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May 19, 2004
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I appreciate the debate in this topic, it basically defines the geopolitical conflict that is occurring globally.

Personally, I think Fidel was heroic. Most nations that have tried to reject imperialism have failed miserably because the 'West'/Russia/China wouldn't/won't allow them to succeed. Fidel helped move Cuba to be a more equal society, just as Noriega did in Nicaragua. In both countries the US undermined the experiment because it threatened their geopolitical power and their ability to pillage other nation states.

Idealistically, I would like to see the withering of the nation state and have a unified global state ruled by a benevolent dictator - closer in values to Castro then Trump.
You on drugs or what?
 

apl16

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Jul 26, 2011
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Look left. Way left.
I appreciate the debate in this topic, it basically defines the geopolitical conflict that is occurring globally.

Personally, I think Fidel was heroic. Most nations that have tried to reject imperialism have failed miserably because the 'West'/Russia/China wouldn't/won't allow them to succeed. Fidel helped move Cuba to be a more equal society, just as Noriega did in Nicaragua. In both countries the US undermined the experiment because it threatened their geopolitical power and their ability to pillage other nation states.

Idealistically, I would like to see the withering of the nation state and have a unified global state ruled by a benevolent dictator - closer in values to Castro then Trump.
Good idea. Can't be much worse than the idiocy we are dealing with today. Many in North America are doing well despite the bad leadership and corruption, but it's getting worse.
 

summerbreeze

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not much imperialism anymore

developing nations require infrastructure, that requires capital, capital wants a return on its investment and in these jurisdictions the country risk is very high

so foreign investment tends to be a tricky thing to get and manage, its cheaper to pay off corrupt politicians than to deal with an ineffective developing democracy or socialist regime

just be glad you weren't born or stuck in one of those countries, we have it so good we take it for granted
 

vanessa kelly

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I appreciate the debate in this topic, it basically defines the geopolitical conflict that is occurring globally.

Idealistically, I would like to see the withering of the nation state and have a unified global state ruled by a benevolent dictator - closer in values to Castro then Trump.
You seem to of spent some time in Cuba CanineCowboy and not just in resorts :)
 
W

Warl0ck

@Vanessa.

I've traveled through Cuba from one side of the island to another. If you think Translink is bad, well......

I'm no fan of American imperialism but I think it's misguided to idolize Fidel Castro. Oh, in his old age, he seemed pretty decent as a person. But, if you thoroughly read the history of Cuba it's pretty ugly. Those who disagreed with Castro, etc were rounded up, exiled or shot. It wasn't that long ago that if you were in Cuba and you invited a local woman to your room she could be arrested and imprisoned. Those working in the hotels "snitched" on some women. The reason people were willing to risk their lives to swim 91 miles to Key West might be an indication of what life was like in Cuba.

I have no problem with Trudeau acknowledging the death of Castro and sending sympathies to the family. After all, they are just people who lost someone they love. But to idolize the guy is entirely misguided. I 100% agree Che did the right thing overthrowing Batista. But Che & Fidel became everything they despised. Power hungry thugs who used fear and intimidation to get their own way. Just because you can get free health care & education doesn't make that OK.
 
W

Warl0ck

I'm still shocked at how many of the Cuba people seemed so sad that Fidel passed.. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all.
Maybe because they simply can't speak up? It's not the first country to intimidate or even kill dissidents who speak up against the government. Again, men and women swim 90 miles across a shark filled ocean to get to America. They're not doing that for the cheap cellular plans.
 

vanessa kelly

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@Vanessa.

I've traveled through Cuba from one side of the island to another. If you think Translink is bad, well......

I'm no fan of American imperialism but I think it's misguided to idolize Fidel Castro. Oh, in his old age, he seemed pretty decent as a person. But, if you thoroughly read the history of Cuba it's pretty ugly. Those who disagreed with Castro, etc were rounded up, exiled or shot. It wasn't that long ago that if you were in Cuba and you invited a local woman to your room she could be arrested and imprisoned. Those working in the hotels "snitched" on some women. The reason people were willing to risk their lives to swim 91 miles to Key West might be an indication of what life was like in Cuba.

I have no problem with Trudeau acknowledging the death of Castro and sending sympathies to the family. After all, they are just people who lost someone they love. But to idolize the guy is entirely misguided. I 100% agree Che did the right thing overthrowing Batista. But Che & Fidel became everything they despised. Power hungry thugs who used fear and intimidation to get their own way. Just because you can get free health care & education doesn't make that OK.
I agree the transportation goes from a 1950 taxi that can break down... horse buggy , cattle trucks, heck one time I was traveling 3 hours to Havana and at a check stop found out we were on a stolen wawa .... nobody believed me because stuff like that does not happen my girlfriend had to verify ...lol... I think things have changed a little more for the better ...lol... I personally think Fidel is both positive and negative .... heck 4 years ago Cuban residents could not dine where the tourists do and now they can ... I have a few male friends who have brought Cuban woman into their hotel ... I do know that if the individual has been visiting many resorts with foreigners they then can be denied to stay.
I spend prob 1/2 my time in Cuba for the last couple years and have family and friends there who feel like they lost a family member I also have found that those who have relatives who are Americanized and send money are dancing in the streets...
I have done a lot of reading/research to learn more and more about a Country that has taken half my heart ... Perhaps when/if it turns into Mexico I might feel different ...lol... I also see the difference since the embargo .... the separation of I have money and you don't ...
In Cuba there are consequences although rather harsh I might say however that may be why tourists feel so safe there ...
 

vanessa kelly

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I'm still shocked at how many of the Cuba people seemed so sad that Fidel passed.. Maybe he wasn't so bad after all.
I know many people feel they lost someone who was part of their family ... from 80 year olds to 30 year olds... again those who are Americanised or have family off the island feel different ... perhaps they think that all this technology and stuff that was to make our lives easier is better it has actually placed distance between what was actually important....
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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@Vanessa.

It wasn't that long ago that if you were in Cuba and you invited a local woman to your room she could be arrested and imprisoned.
So, just like most of the US, then. And a lot more countries.
 

vanessa kelly

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Jul 28, 2005
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It wasn't that long ago that if you were in Cuba and you invited a local woman to your room she could be arrested and imprisoned. Those working in the hotels "snitched" on some women.
So, just like most of the US, then. And a lot more countries.
I could be wrong, I am under the impression that if it is noticed that the same person be it a woman/man there is a possibility of harsh circumstances if they have robbed or abused ect ...at either a casa or a resort ( Cuba is protects the tourists) usually they are just denied at the time of registration if they are always with a new tourist as they have to show their identification.
I have a couple friends (male) who have been visiting Cuba for 10 plus years and they have a couple ladies who visit them ... one in 10 days has 2 wonderful women who stay a few days each ...

There are also places to enjoy a cervaza or bottle of rum and meet wonderful woman who are so in touch with their sexuality, actually most Cubans are ...lol.. a person can enjoy a day of friends, fishing and fu***** :)
 
W

Warl0ck

I could be wrong, I am under the impression that if it is noticed that the same person be it a woman/man there is a possibility of harsh circumstances if they have robbed or abused ect ...at either a casa or a resort ( Cuba is protects the tourists) usually they are just denied at the time of registration if they are always with a new tourist as they have to show their identification.
I have a couple friends (male) who have been visiting Cuba for 10 plus years and they have a couple ladies who visit them ... one in 10 days has 2 wonderful women who stay a few days each ...

There are also places to enjoy a cervaza or bottle of rum and meet wonderful woman who are so in touch with their sexuality, actually most Cubans are ...lol.. a person can enjoy a day of friends, fishing and fu***** :)
Well that's the thing with Cuba, it's not a democracy so the laws are bent to suit the needs of those in power. I do know I was told that women "fraternizing" with tourists could be arrested and the situation could be dire. Sure it happens in America, but they have a somewhat functional legal system. Tourists usually are given a higher priority and the laws are more lax for them. Still, the last thing I'd want to do is endanger someone in that manner.

I'm not arguing the wonders of Cuba. It is a magical place. I am arguing that Castro WAS a nasty human. I've no trouble if Trudeau sent sympathies to his family or attended the funeral. I don't agree with him holding the guy up on a pedestal as a beacon of great leadership. He was a tyrant and a dictator. The past cannot be change, it is what it is. I'm all for being polite and respectful.
 

uncleg

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summerbreeze

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Well that's the thing with Cuba, it's not a democracy so the laws are bent to suit the needs of those in power. I do know I was told that women "fraternizing" with tourists could be arrested and the situation could be dire. Sure it happens in America, but they have a somewhat functional legal system. Tourists usually are given a higher priority and the laws are more lax for them. Still, the last thing I'd want to do is endanger someone in that manner.

I'm not arguing the wonders of Cuba. It is a magical place. I am arguing that Castro WAS a nasty human. I've no trouble if Trudeau sent sympathies to his family or attended the funeral. I don't agree with him holding the guy up on a pedestal as a beacon of great leadership. He was a tyrant and a dictator. The past cannot be change, it is what it is. I'm all for being polite and respectful.
its not the form of government, its how that government choose to govern

Philippines and Thailand have the same government and democratic structure as the U.S. and they as corrupt as any dictatorship or communist regime.

Without rule of law, free press, and safety for minorities. You will end up with one group controlling another (i.e. those in power)

In the case of the Philippines and Thailand, they don't have the higher educations levels to support a more advanced form of government. Singapore on the other hand does have the education base for its elected officials and bureaucrats and has flourished although its leadership has had little tolerance for anyone who did not follow their strict rules.

Pretty tough to get elected and lead a country in need of a good education system and equally difficult to self fund infrastructure growth. Some of the resource rich countries are getting their in their own way such as Venezuela with its oil.

Even Brazil which is quite a resource wealthy country with a decent government has huge corruption.

Issue isn't Cuba, or Castro in terms of difficulties facing that country, its human nature.
 
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