The Porn Dude

Ecudor

Mar 10, 2011
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Congrats to Ecuador for standing up to UK .
And now many Latin countries are joining in to show support !!!!
right on !
 
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apis

Member
Jun 11, 2012
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Near the water
'Ecuador' perhaps?

Now that the Spelling Nazi in me is out of the way, I have to say that I am a bit torn on this. On one hand, if he really did assault those two Swedish women then he should go to jail (in Sweden, not the States). However, the details of that (as reported by the media) make the accusations sound pretty shaky. Also, the timing of this and all the politics REALLY stink. It seems to me that Ecuador and these other countries are simply trying to stick it to the States here.
 
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Mar 10, 2011
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I think he has more info and intelligence than us of his situation.
he is not scared of Sweden , but he knows the USA wants his ass to rot away in supermax.
he needs more dirt to hold over them , or he already does and thats why he is soooo dangerous to UK n usa.
i,m sure info is pouring into wikileaks now.
 

bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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Thought this was a trip report.
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
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'Ecuador' perhaps?

Now that the Spelling Nazi in me is out of the way, I have to say that I am a bit torn on this. On one hand, if he really did assault those two Swedish women then he should go to jail (in Sweden, not the States). However, the details of that (as reported by the media) make the accusations sound pretty shaky. Also, the timing of this and all the politics REALLY stink. It seems to me that Ecuador and these other countries are simply trying to stick it to the States here.
Yup. He is there best friend, well, untill he publishes all their dirty little secrets. But that isn't going to happen, because to people like him, Ecuador has the "right" sort of government, so they can do whatever they like and he will say nothing.
 

grusse

Well-known member
Feb 18, 2010
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I haven't followed this as closely as most I admit.

However,it seems to me to be a standoff situation....Ecuador has provided sanctuary in their
embassy and said he can live in Ecuador...but how does he get to Ecuador?U.K. police are ready
to arrest him as soon as he leaves the embassy.

Or,am I missing something here?
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
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on yer ignore list
I haven't followed this as closely as most I admit.

However,it seems to me to be a standoff situation....Ecuador has provided sanctuary in their
embassy and said he can live in Ecuador...but how does he get to Ecuador?U.K. police are ready
to arrest him as soon as he leaves the embassy.

Or,am I missing something here?
not only the embassy is considered to be the property of the foreign country - being inside properly marked motor vehicles provides immunity, as does any kind of 'official' position granted by the country. so if they were to grant him the position of 'attache in charge of women's studies', he would be immune to arrest during transit back to ecuador

of course, this would put a major bee in great britain's bonnet, and they could retaliate in other diplomatic ways
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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I watched this report from Australian tv about the story a few weeks ago - it has a lot of the details that a lot of the media has wrong or ignores. It's worth a watch:


Sex, Lies and Julian Assange > link <




Glenn Greenwald has written about this on numerous occasions > link <


And as of this week, he now writes at the Guardian and has written about the Assange fiasco twice so far:


The bizarre, unhealthy, blinding media contempt for Julian Assange > link <


...

The attacks on those who have defended Assange's extradition and asylum arguments has depended on the disgusting slander that such advocates are indifferent to the allegations of sexual assault made against him or, worse, are "rape apologists."

The reality is exactly the opposite. I have spoken to countless Assange defenders over the last couple of years and not a single one – literally not one – is dismissive of the need for those allegations in Sweden to be taken seriously and to be legally and fairly resolved. Typifying this view is Milne's column last night, which in the midst of scorning the attacks on Assange, embraced "the seriousness of the rape allegations made against Assange, for which he should clearly answer and, if charges are brought, stand trial."

That is the view of every Assange defender with a platform that I know of, including me (one can certainly find anonymous internet commenters, or the occasional named one, making actual, horrific rape apologist claims, but one can find stray advocates saying anything; imputing those views to Assange defenders generally would be like claiming that all Assange critics want to see him illegally shot in the head or encaged for life because some prominent American and other commentators have called for this).

Not only Assange defenders, but also his own lawyers and the Ecuadorean government, have worked relentlessly to ensure that he faces those allegations in Sweden. They have merely sought to do so in a way that protects him from extradition to the US to face espionage charges for his journalism – a threat that could send him to prison for life (likely in a torturous super-max facility), and a threat only the wilfuly blind could deny is serious and real.

In their New York Times op-ed this week, Michael Moore and Oliver Stone correctly argue that it is "the British and Swedish governments that stand in the way of [the sex assault] investigation, not Mr Assange." That's because, they note, Assange has repeatedly offered to be questioned by Swedish authorities in London, or to travel today to Sweden to face those allegations if he could be assured that his doing so would not result in his extradition to the US to face espionage charges.

Time and again, "Correa said Ecuador never intended to stop Assange from facing justice in Sweden. 'What we've asked for is guarantees that he won't be extradited to a third country,' he said." Both Britain and Sweden have steadfastly refused even to discuss any agreement that could safeguard both the rights of the complainants and Assange's rights not to be imprisoned for basic journalism.

...

Assange at this point is wanted for questioning in this case, and has not been charged. Once he's questioned, he might be charged, or the case might be dropped. That is what has made the Swedes' steadfast refusal to question him in England so mystifying, of such concern to Assange, and is the real reason that the investigation has thus far been obstructed. Indeed, Swedish legal expert Ove Bring has made clear, in the context of discussing Assange, that "under Swedish law it is possible to interrogate people abroad," but that Sweden is refusing to do so simply for reasons of "prestige" (he added: "If he goes to Sweden, is interrogated, then I expect the case would be dropped, as the evidence is not enough to charge him with a crime").

...

Both the British and Swedish governments could – and should – take the position that to prosecute Assange under espionage statutes for acts of journalism would be political crimes that are not subject to their extradition treaties with the U.S. or are otherwise not cognizable extradition offenses. Rather than explore any of those possible grounds for agreement, both governments have simply refused to negotiate either with Assange's lawyers or the Ecuadorean government over any proposals to safeguard his rights. That refusal on the part of those governments – and not any desire to obstruct the investigation or evade facing those allegations – is what led the Ecuadoreans to conclude that asylum was necessary to protect Assange from political persecution.

The complainants in Sweden have the absolute right to have their serious allegations against Assange investigated and legally resolved. But Assange has the equally compelling right under international law and treaties to be free of political persecution: which is exactly what prosecuting him (and perhaps imprisoning him for life) in the US for WikiLeaks' disclosures would be.

It is vital that both sets of rights be safeguarded, not just one. The only just solution is one that protects both. Assange's lawyers and the Ecuadorians have repeatedly pursued arrangements to vindicate all substantial rights at stake so that he can travel to Sweden – today – to face those allegations while being protected against unjust extradition to the US. It is the refusal of the British and Swedish authorities even to consider any such proposals that have brought this situation to the unfortunate standstill it is in.

...








And from The New Statesman must correct its error over Assange and extradition > link <



...

One of the "myths" Green purported to debunk was that "Sweden should guarantee that there be no extradition to USA." Assange's lawyers, along with Ecuadorean officials, have repeatedly told Sweden and Britain that Assange would immediately travel to Stockholm to face these allegations if some type of satisfactory assurance against extradition to the US could be given. This is the paramount issue because it shows that it is not Assange and Ecuadorean officials – but rather the Swedish and British governments – who are preventing the sex assault allegations from being fairly and legally resolved as they should be.

...

Speaking for myself, I have always said the same thing about those allegations in Sweden from the moment they emerged: they are serious and deserve legal resolution. It is not Assange or his supporters preventing that resolution, but the Swedish and British governments, which are strangely refusing even to negotiate as to how Assange's rights against unjust extradition and political persecution can be safeguarded along with the rights of the complainants to have their allegations addressed.

...
 

Miss*Bijou

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Nov 9, 2006
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Should he not also receive assurances that he will not be fed to sea monsters? Or be thrown out of the aircraft into the North Sea on his journey to Sweden? At any time when this man was on British soil, the USA could have asked for his extradition and did not. To ask for assurances against something that is not happening is not much of an excuse for not dealing with the Swedes.

If the RCMP were seeking to speak with me & I said that I first wanted assurances that I would not be deported to Guatemala, I don't think that I'd get much sympathy. The idea put forward by JA that the Swedes coming to question him in Britain protected him from extradition and his traveling to Sweden exposed him to imminent danger of extradition is, well, silly. Britain is a much closer ally of the US & much more likely to brave public outcry over doing so than the Swedish government. It is a red herring.

The reason that JA doesn't want to go to Sweden is that he assumes that he will be arrested, tried, convicted and placed in a Swedish prison. Else why the refusal to travel?

Sorry, I disagree. I sure as hell wouldn't go!!

Are you kidding me? Have you read about the conditions Bradley Manning was kept under for months? Guantanamo, anyone? The famous "Communication Management Unit" or "CMU's"?

The calls for his (Assange's) assassination by people in the government? The Obama government's obsession with going after whistleblowers? The (too) NUMEROUS (to list-them-all) examples of the sorts of complete absurdities that have come out of the courtrooms (>here< with >video< too) the past decade? The fact that there is evidence that a grand jury is or was underway and leaked emails indicating the US already has a secret, sealed indictment against him?


Even Australian diplomats are sure the US plans to go after him:


AUSTRALIAN diplomats have no doubt the United States is intent on pursuing Julian Assange, Foreign Affairs and Trade Department documents obtained by the Herald show.

...the Australian embassy in Washington reported in February that “the US investigation into possible criminal conduct by Mr Assange has been ongoing for more than a year”.



You better believe I'd want it written, notarized and witnessed by at least a dozen people! lol
No way in hell I would leave it to faith, cross my fingers and hope for the best from the US government!

Are you kidding? :eek:
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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...

Why does Assange and others fear that Sweden would repatriate him to the United States, where he could face the rest of his life in jail, even execution for publishing leaked official documents? Because in November 2006 the United Nations found Sweden guilty of violating the global torture ban. Swedish officials handed over Mohammed El Zari and Ahmeed Agiza, two Egyptian asylum seekers, to CIA operatives in December 2001, to be rendered from Stockholm to Cairo. Both were tortured in Egypt. And, as Seamus Milne wrote in the Guardian, because of reports of a secret indictment against Assange by a U.S. federal grand jury in Alexandria, Virginia.

The law says that someone who has suffered persecution, or fears that he or she will suffer persecution because of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular group or political opinion may seek asylum. In the last few days, the United States has claimed that it does not recognize the concept of “diplomatic asylum.” Exactly what distinction is Washington trying to make between asylum, political asylum and diplomatic asylum is baffling. Assange was after all in the territory of a foreign country that granted him refuge. Let us look at some precedents.

Stalin’s daughter Svetlana sought asylum when she walked into the U.S. Embassy in Delhi in 1967. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn got asylum and lived in the United States for years before returning to Russia. Martina Navratilova, the Czech tennis player, took asylum in the U.S. in 1975. There are numerous instances when dissidents have been granted refuge in the United States and elsewhere. The concept is universal and depends on the sovereign decision of the country dealing with an asylum request.

Also worth examining is the British foreign secretary’s assertion that the United Kingdom has a “binding obligation” to extradite Assange to Sweden. Let us, for a moment, go back to October 1998. Chile’s former military dictator Augusto Pinochet was visiting London for medical treatment. A Spanish magistrate Baltasar Garzon, now on Assange’s legal team, issued an arrest warrant for Pinochet on charges arising out of crimes against humanity in Chile. Pinochet was arrested a few days later in Britain, where he would spend more than a year in judicial custody, fighting extradition to Spain. The House of Lords, then Britain’s highest court, ruled that Pinochet could indeed be handed over to the Spanish judicial authorities, because crimes such as torture could not be protected by immunity.

The British government nonetheless allowed Pinochet to return to Chile in March 2000 on health grounds. The law was clear, but for Britain’s Labour government at the time there was no “binding obligation” to extradite Pinochet to Spain. Chile under Pinochet had backed the United Kingdom during the brief Falklands war with Argentina. Moreover, he and Britain’s former Conservative prime minister Margaret Thatcher were admirers of each other. There was, after all, a way out for Pinochet to return home instead of being extradited to Spain.

> link <


Naomi Wolf's text referred to in the above quote is an interesting read too: Eight BIG PROBLEMS with the “case” against Assange


The thing here is that it isn't like Julian Assange fled Sweden to run away from the accusations or to avoid speaking with the Swedish police. He met with and was interviewed by the police and remained in Sweden for something like 2 weeks from when this started. He was then told that no charges would be brought against him and when he asked whether he was free to leave Sweden to go to England, he was given confirmation that he was free to go - which he did. Only once he was in England did Sweden suddenly decide he had to come in for more questions. If you read Naomi Wolf's 8 problems, you can see that there is an overwhelming number of suspicious irregularities and credible concerns.






And just to put things back into perspective here. This is only one of the files leaked to wikileaks and then published by them. This is the sort of thing the US government is furious about having been made public:


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5rXPrfnU3G0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kelmEZe8whI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>





Collateral Murder: info

One of those people was a Reuter's journalist.



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BflAj2txMVQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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victoria
So he was safer from extradition to the USA in Britain is what you are saying. I mean he was there for months and months & never an extradition request. Britain who sent troops along side the Americans into Iraq. Twice. Who sent troops into Afghanistan along side the USA. Who allowed the Americans to do Air strikes on Libya in the 1990's from bases in England. The country that has tried to be America's best military ally since 1940.

Versus Sweden who, other than shipping IKEA furniture, has little in common with the USA.

You've sold me. :rolleyes:
What more does it take to convince you? The Swedes have not filed any charges against him. The fact that he is willing to go to Sweden if they promise not to extradite him, and that he is willing to answer their questions in London should be enough. It is extremely suspicious that the Brits and Swedes would take these steps for possible fairly minor charges, and stinks of a setup.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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victoria
What more does it take to convince you???? If the Americans want him, they could have extradited him from Britain without the need for him to travel to Sweden. The Swedish request that he answer questions predates the big Wikkileaks dump that is the supposed cause of this vast conspiracy to trick him to travel back to Sweden. The Swedish legal issue dates from November 2010. He went into the Ecuadorian Embassy in June.2012 to avoid being extradited to Sweden.

He's been in Britain under British control most of the time since, fighting extradition to Sweden. At any time while he was in British custody or on British soil, the USA could have filed to extradite him to the USA. They haven't, even though they are more likely to get a favorable outcome from their ally, the British Government, than a Swedish government.

Why not do a compromise with this celebrity? Because it would be a very bad precedent for all countries with extradition treaties. The treaties place obligations on both sides of a request:
The country that makes the request has accepted the obligation not to pursue frivolous extraditions, only those that are serious and with substantial evidence against the accused.

The country receiving the request has accepted the obligation to fairly review the evidence of wrong doing and if the review finds the evidence strong enough, ship the accused out. There may be some caveats that must first be addressed, like when Canada requires assurances that the death penalty will not be incurred or where we don't usually ship folks to places that practice torture.

There is an extradition process that each country puts in place to manage the rights of the accused and the host country's treaty obligations. To side step them in this case, after JA has lost all legal appeals of his extradition would be to ignore the treaty obligations of both countries. It also allows much greater political manipulation of the extradition process than is currently the case. As much as possible, the extradition process should be at arms length from the elected government as all judicial processes should be. It isn't always, but to start making these kind of deals after the extradition process has been completed invites the wholesale abandonment of the principal of judicial independence in the extradition process. So no, I don't support a deal in this case.
All I can say is that you have a lot more faith in your interpretation of events than I would if I were in Assange's place.
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
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not only the embassy is considered to be the property of the foreign country - being inside properly marked motor vehicles provides immunity, as does any kind of 'official' position granted by the country. so if they were to grant him the position of 'attache in charge of women's studies', he would be immune to arrest during transit back to ecuador

of course, this would put a major bee in great britain's bonnet, and they could retaliate in other diplomatic ways
He would have to get to the car first, and to do that he would have to cross UK territory (The Ecuadorian embassy doesnt have vehicle access). Also, the embassy occupies only part of the building so even going into the corridor could get him arrested. Likewise, to get on a plane to leave he would not be protected any more.

They can't grant him a position and protect him that way, because he would have to present his credentials to be granted admission to the UK, and they don't have to do that. If his credentials are not accepted then he would have no protection.

Apparently the only way he can be taken out is in a diplomatic bag, but there is nothing stopping the UK from leaving the bag in a sealed room for two weeks before sending it on.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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When you have feminist nutjobs like Naomi Wolf denouncing JA rape allegation, you know JA is not guilty of rape. This is a female that is claiming sexual harassment against Harold Bloom for merely touching her thighs!
That is because Assange is one of "her kind of people", and "her kind of people" by definition are incapable of rape. Therefore it is obvious in her mind that the accusers are lying.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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Should he not also receive assurances that he will not be fed to sea monsters? Or be thrown out of the aircraft into the North Sea on his journey to Sweden? At any time when this man was on British soil, the USA could have asked for his extradition and did not. To ask for assurances against something that is not happening is not much of an excuse for not dealing with the Swedes.
I don't think that the US would have any grounds for requesting extradition, and that is why they didn't. In order to request extradition they would have to show that in some way Assange committed a crime in their jurisdiction, which he apparently has not. Sure, confidential information was sent to him, but as long as he did not solicit it from someone in US jursidiction he is OK. There is not much danger of him being sent anywhere other than being deported back to Australia once all this is done.

The reason he doesn't want to be sent back to Sweden is because they have broad and draconian laws about sexual assault, and while what he did might have been ok in most places, it was not OK there. He knows that he is probably going to jail, and after that being deported back to Australia. Once he is there his criminal record will prevent him from traveling to most countries. That is what this is all about, saving his own skin after misdeeds, not some noble cause.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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What more does it take to convince you? The Swedes have not filed any charges against him. The fact that he is willing to go to Sweden if they promise not to extradite him, and that he is willing to answer their questions in London should be enough. It is extremely suspicious that the Brits and Swedes would take these steps for possible fairly minor charges, and stinks of a setup.
The Swedes are not going to extradite him, they are a country of laws as well. The US would have to show just cause before that happened and they would not be able to.

The "extradition to the US" thing is a made up excuse to avoid going back to Sweden to face the allegations that have been made against him. The Swedes can't promise not to extradite him when no extradition request has been made. That is absurd.
 

ThisEndUp

mort à l'entente
Hmm, am I the only one who saw Anitia's comment?

court martialed and executed?

Is/was JA a serving member of the US armed forces?

Nope, so "poof" goes that argument

That's a swing and a miss, try again Anita, although with your bias it's clear as day, you'll come up with something else
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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The Swedes are not going to extradite him, they are a country of laws as well. The US would have to show just cause before that happened and they would not be able to.

The "extradition to the US" thing is a made up excuse to avoid going back to Sweden to face the allegations that have been made against him. The Swedes can't promise not to extradite him when no extradition request has been made. That is absurd.


Shortly after issuing the EAW and Interpol Red Notice to 188 countries, the prosecutor Marianne Ny originally stated that extradition to the United States was ’out of the question’ (05 December 2010) - but her statements were later redacted

...

Under EU law, Sweden should only initiate Julian Assange’s onward extradition if and when the UK gives its agreement, but the UK has little incentive to block an extradition order if Sweden does not take the step to do so first. Moreover, legal commentators in the UK have stated that it is likely that the UK would consent to Julian Assange’s extradition from Sweden (this is likely to raise less criticism and mobilisation if Julian Assange is not physically under UK custody).

- Sweden has in the recent past violated international treaties in relation to surrendering foreign nationals into US custody to be interrogated and tortured (case of extraordinary rendition, Agiza v. Sweden at the European Court of Human Rights). Furthermore, Amnesty International and the UN Committee against Torture criticised Sweden because it rendered two refugees to the CIA who were then tortured under the Egyptian regime of Hosni Mubarak. (A documentary with the testimony of tortured refugees who had been granted asylum and then rendered to the CIA by Sweden was aired on Swedish television on 5 October 2011.


Wouldn’t the UK be more likely to extradite Assange than Sweden?

* Read the Freedom of Information (FOI) response from the Home Office (February 2012) regarding US Attorney General Eric Holder’s direct participation in UK Extradition Act ’review’


"If the Justice Department were actually to issue charges against Mr. Assange while he was still in Britain there could be potentially a decision for the UK government whether to extradite him to Sweden or to the United States, and that could get to be a complicated clash between the two different requests which would put the UK government in a difficult position." - John B. Bellinger III on Fox News


Some critical voices claim that the UK-US extradition treaty is more permissive than the Sweden-US extradition treaty. Extradition to the US, they claim, would be simpler from the UK than from Sweden.

This argument fails on several points:

- The UK’s extradition treaty does not have the temporary surrender (’conditional release’) clause. The UK’s judicial review process, while far from perfect, has a number of practical review mechanisms. The nearest equivalent case, of Gary McKinnon - a UK citizen who has been charged for hacking US military systems - has been opposed in the courts for 8 years.

- Public opinion and the media (to a greater extent) are more sympathetic to Julian Assange in the UK than in Sweden. Public pressure could draw out the process of extradition to the United States in the UK. In Sweden the media climate is hostile (see Media climate in Sweden) due to the sex allegations. Public outcry would be significantly weaker and therefore less likely to stand in the way of a strategically convenient extradition.

- In the UK, Julian Assange is better able to defend himself, muster support and understand the legal procedures against him. In Sweden on the other hand, the language barrier prevents him from effectively challenging the actions against.

- The UK is politically better positioned to withstand pressure from the United States than Sweden. Sweden is a small country of nine million people close to Russia. It has grown increasingly dependent on the United States. In recent years Sweden has complied with directives from the United States in a manner that has not been scrutinised by Parliament, as has been revealed by the disclosed diplomatic cables (see Political Interference).



Btw, since we're on the subject of Sweden and Feminism, I really recommend the following documentary which was aired on Swedish tv. It's insane! (This is part2 but part1 is also interesting. You may have to turn captions ON for English)


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?index=5&list=UUeOSlfqBQbOE6ZjMdTWhsnQ&hl=en_US" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



The rest of the videos are here: http://www.youtube.com/user/figaropravda
 
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