Do you think pertisipating in prostiturion is violance against women..?Why?Why not?

[johnsmit]

This is the argument that keeps coming up.. Hiring an escort... seeing a prostitute for sex ..is voilance against women . We are raping them.forcing them to have sex... by offering
money for sex...
Is it true... Who can honestly .. and with out byious answer this question...acctusation , in a truthful manner.. .With out having a personal agenda.

I know that i can't.. As a man.. weather i am a caring .. heipful person or not... I still have . my sexual desires.. that i want to act on.

I may had never had sex.. if it was not for being able to pay for that service.. .I do feel some guilt . for wanting sex from a eomen.. and using her for my need for pleasure.. but. once I realized.. that there were beautuful women . that i found desible, offering . sex for pay..I co cluded . that.. it was ok..Others were seeing them.. and i was not coersing them to do someing that they were freely offering..In other word .if i did not do it . others were.

So am I taking advantage of them... Yes perhaps I am... Once I get to know them.. see them as freinds.. which usually is the case.. then it is not just paying for sex.. It becomes helping them out .. with their needs.. . Want sex.. or expecting payment in the form of sexual favours.. is not an acceptable behavour for a friend.. that cares for anothers friendship.

But my desires are still real... and when you think about it.. there should not be the two different ways i treat two indaviduals.. bases on. weather they are friends .. or a stranger. that I first saw to have sex for pay...

If i perswaded..and coersed. my friend to have sex with me.. it could be a relationship... or it could be considered.. abuss.. and violace against women..

 

[susi]

its not rape, that's the abolitionists shaming the "john's". they want everyone to believe all sex buyers are predator perverts who want to rape little girls. my ad says "beautiful older woman", so the men who phone me are certainly not looking for little girls....

this is sexism...against men...its shames and discriminates against men because they need sex...remember ...without sex, you will die. men need sex...so the abolitionists argument is based on feeling the lives of men are less valuable the women's lives. that is illegal and is discrimination.

just my 2 cents....

 

[sincere]

what if you see an sp and dont have sex? is that considered "rape" for your wallet?

 

[SeductiveCameronDEL]

This is the argument that keeps coming up.. Hiring an escort... seeing a prostitute for sex ..is voilance against women . We are raping them.forcing them to have sex... by offering
money for sex...
Is it true... Who can honestly .. and with out byious answer this question...acctusation , in a truthful manner.. .With out having a personal agenda.

I know that i can't.. As a man.. weather i am a caring .. heipful person or not... I still have . my sexual desires.. that i want to act on.

I may had never had sex.. if it was not for being able to pay for that service.. .I do feel some guilt . for wanting sex from a eomen.. and using her for my need for pleasure.. but. once I realized.. that there were beautuful women . that i found desible, offering . sex for pay..I co cluded . that.. it was ok..Others were seeing them.. and i was not coersing them to do someing that they were freely offering..In other word .if i did not do it . others were.

So am I taking advantage of them... Yes perhaps I am... Once I get to know them.. see them as freinds.. which usually is the case.. then it is not just paying for sex.. It becomes helping them out .. with their needs.. . Want sex.. or expecting payment in the form of sexual favours.. is not an acceptable behavour for a friend.. that cares for anothers friendship.

But my desires are still real... and when you think about it.. there should not be the two different ways i treat two indaviduals.. bases on. weather they are friends .. or a stranger. that I first saw to have sex for pay...

If i perswaded..and coersed. my friend to have sex with me.. it could be a relationship... or it could be considered.. abuss.. and violace against women..

I think that this kind of idea is complete garbage. How is it violent if women are willing? To say that women aren't capable of making conscious decisions regarding their bodies because they are women is total right-wing propaganda, and far more violent towards our gender, just in a figurative and sexist way.

 

[Real Sonny Burnett]

This is the argument that keeps coming up.. Hiring an escort... seeing a prostitute for sex ..is voilance against women . We are raping them.forcing them to have sex... by offering
money for sex...
Is it true... Who can honestly .. and with out byious answer this question...acctusation , in a truthful manner.. .With out having a personal agenda.

I know that i can't.. As a man.. weather i am a caring .. heipful person or not... I still have . my sexual desires.. that i want to act on.

I may had never had sex.. if it was not for being able to pay for that service.. .I do feel some guilt . for wanting sex from a eomen.. and using her for my need for pleasure.. but. once I realized.. that there were beautuful women . that i found desible, offering . sex for pay..I co cluded . that.. it was ok..Others were seeing them.. and i was not coersing them to do someing that they were freely offering..In other word .if i did not do it . others were.

So am I taking advantage of them... Yes perhaps I am... Once I get to know them.. see them as freinds.. which usually is the case.. then it is not just paying for sex.. It becomes helping them out .. with their needs.. . Want sex.. or expecting payment in the form of sexual favours.. is not an acceptable behavour for a friend.. that cares for anothers friendship.

But my desires are still real... and when you think about it.. there should not be the two different ways i treat two indaviduals.. bases on. weather they are friends .. or a stranger. that I first saw to have sex for pay...

If i perswaded..and coersed. my friend to have sex with me.. it could be a relationship... or it could be considered.. abuss.. and violace against women..

This was horrible.

 

[VanessaofBC]

Some days I wish I had a "real" job. Then I realize how lucky I am to be my own boss, not have to wait for a pay cheque, work early/late hours. In fact I rarely use my alarm at all.
I had lots of jobs and worked lots of places, but I enjoy this the most! It took a long time for me to be able to admit that, because of societies norms, but as I have matured I have realized I have no one else to be but me.

 

[hornygandalf]

Unfortunately, I think we are going to hear a lot more of this kind of rhetoric as there is debate around new legislation. It sounds like this is the kind of language used with the introduction of the 'Nordic model' in Sweden, and also elsewhere. Clearly there is trafficking and abuse of women in the industry, and there is also violence involved (we only need to look at the tragic murders of the women in New Westminster as an example), but that is only one portion of the industry. The message in the media suggests that is a significant portion of the industry, and those who think they are in it because of 'freedom of choice,' are only a small, and misinformed minority. I've heard the question bandied around "what women would EVER want to be a prostitute and sell their body if they had real choice?" But, this is also about a lot more than just sexual release, and I believe that is part of the message that needs to be very clearly and continuously articulated in the media.

There needs to be a more well-rounded presentation of the realities, that acknowledges the trafficking and exploitation (that happens on farms with migrant labour as well), but sets that off against the broader realities and experiences of many of the women in the industry who aren't coerced, and have made a conscious choice to do this for a whole range of reasons. The idea of it being 'violence against women' needs to be carefully dismantled and looked at carefully. In part, it is talking about a system of exploitation where bodies are being bought and sold, in a similar way that slaves were bought and sold (so, systemic violence), except that it isn't (for the most part). The very small number who are coerced or forced into the industry are used as public face of the industry. That image needs to be rebutted and corrected.

There is a social stigma against the industry. Many who would be good advocates and could articulate the case in the media will remain silent and hidden. For any number of reasons a more well-rounded portrayal of the industry will be difficult to provide on a consistent basis in the media.

Take a look at this comment out of Australia as an indication of some of the debate likely to come up here:
http://feministcurrent.com/8347/10-myths-about-prostitution-trafficking-and-the-nordic-model/
Also look at:
http://www.catwa.org.au/files/images/Nordic_Model_Pamphlet.pdf

I'm not sure what there is out of New Zealand, but that is a country where it is legalized, but doesn't seem to have some of the perceived problems noted elsewhere. Clearly more factual information in the debate that will be coming.

So, I have rambled a bit, but in short, where there is true freedom of choice on the part of the individual (she/he is in the industry because they want to be and not forced to as a result of circumstances), the transaction is truly consensual, and the woman (or man) is not forced to undertake any acts against their will, I fail to see or understand how it can be considered violence against women. There is a much greater likelihood of violence against women, in my opinion, if it is forced underground, which the Nordic model (among other options) would be likely to do. It is denying a biological urge that has been met in this way for as long as recorded history, and probably earlier, and has also been seen to happen in some form among chimpanzee's.

And one last comment, although I don't wish to appear elitist or discourage contributions, the initial post was painful to read and get through.

 

[johnsmit]

I am just asking. is there a real answer. to the claim . by these anti prostitution activist.

I think they are wrong.. and there asumtion. about most of the women in the business is wrong.. But i my opinion as the user. invalid.. when it comes to debunking the claim..

I have friends.. yes religious people .. and a women at that .. that think it is awful that. girl.. and women are ok with selling sex for money.. Yes she thinks they are victims..
She think they need to know God.. And she thinks that sex is only for married relationship.. or commited relationship.... Not sure if she thinks you should do it to just have pleasure .. or only to make babies..

Then on the other had my 80,s mother.. was more oprn minded.. but. still not convinced it was that great to do.But she worried more about me driving escorts.. and what i might run into.

As for the Why?.. or Why not..harmful... abuss.. victimising....sinful?. Any one got a relalist rebuk.. to counter the claim.. or opinion...
Of course it comes to choise... and that women are able to make a choise. about there sexual preferances.. and what they do with their body..
.
That there are people that think they know best .. and what they think.. every one shoukd agree with.. is what I find disturbing.. .

 

[clu]

My opinion FWIW: comparing prostitution and rape is like comparing a housekeeper to a slave. It's not about what the person is doing, but why. In one you have informed consent and the other you do not. You should not be able to restrict why a person gives their consent as long as they are capable of giving it.

As to the risk of violence in the profession, the less clandestine the participants have to be, the harder it would be for violent offenders to hide too. So taking away the laws that prevent it from being practiced out in the open or on safe premises would help reduce the violence.

 

[Woodywoodpecker13]

To me this is a frightening line of reasoning with potentially scary consequences. Where is the line and who gets to decide?

If you extend the rationale to its natural conclusion, where does the slippery slope end? What is violence? Who defines it?

A lap dance?
A strip show?
A bikini contest?
Working at Hooters?

What about a sugar daddy marriage? Or an arranged marriage? Is this violence?

Will the government decide that any display or use of sexuality not in line with the morale majority is non consensual and anyone who acts on it is committing an act of violence?

I find all of these questions very troubling.

 

[hornygandalf]

I also wonder where 'amateur prostitution' fits into this where a women goes out to dinner with man and has it paid for, and maybe received flowers from him as well, and then in exchange at the end of the night agrees to also have sex with him.

 

[HankQuinlan]

I am just asking. is there a real answer. to the claim . by these anti prostitution activist.

I think they are wrong.. and there asumtion. about most of the women in the business is wrong.. But i my opinion as the user. invalid.. when it comes to debunking the claim..

I have friends.. yes religious people .. and a women at that .. that think it is awful that. girl.. and women are ok with selling sex for money.. Yes she thinks they are victims..
She think they need to know God.. And she thinks that sex is only for married relationship.. or commited relationship.... Not sure if she thinks you should do it to just have pleasure .. or only to make babies..

Then on the other had my 80,s mother.. was more oprn minded.. but. still not convinced it was that great to do.But she worried more about me driving escorts.. and what i might run into.

As for the Why?.. or Why not..harmful... abuss.. victimising....sinful?. Any one got a relalist rebuk.. to counter the claim.. or opinion...
Of course it comes to choise... and that women are able to make a choise. about there sexual preferances.. and what they do with their body..
.
That there are people that think they know best .. and what they think.. every one shoukd agree with.. is what I find disturbing.. .

There is no such thing as sin. There is only morality. And there are real answers to problems and social issues. Just saying that everyone's opinion is equal is total bullshit.

Treating women like children that don't know what they want is WRONG and paternalistic. That is something "every one shoukd agree with."

 

[HankQuinlan]

I also wonder where 'amateur prostitution' fits into this where a women goes out to dinner with man and has it paid for, and maybe received flowers from him as well, and then in exchange at the end of the night agrees to also have sex with him.

It doesn't fit in to anything, no more than it would if she accepted money. It is not society's business. Society should be limited to protecting children and victims of coercion.

 

[sofine]

This was horrible.

lol. No kidding. I stopped counting at " weather i am a caring..." Guess that was to be whether I am a caring....

Grammar/spelling police have spoken

 

[Jessica James]

Abolitionists fuel the sex trade and put more money in a sex workers pocket than anything I have ever seen . It's those very beliefs that creat unsafe working conditions also create the need to keep everything underground and therefore safety is at risk but money is at a premium .

 

[johnsmit]

Thank for the comments. and more needed on the subject...

As for the spelling police. Yes some days my post .are full of errors.. and an comprehensible congealed mess

But as i read though the post here.. I can pick up an number of gramatic and spelling mistakes...
we are all human..

 

[SeductiveCameronDEL]

I am just asking. is there a real answer. to the claim . by these anti prostitution activist.

I think they are wrong.. and there asumtion. about most of the women in the business is wrong.. But i my opinion as the user. invalid.. when it comes to debunking the claim..

I have friends.. yes religious people .. and a women at that .. that think it is awful that. girl.. and women are ok with selling sex for money.. Yes she thinks they are victims..
She think they need to know God.. And she thinks that sex is only for married relationship.. or commited relationship.... Not sure if she thinks you should do it to just have pleasure .. or only to make babies..

Then on the other had my 80,s mother.. was more oprn minded.. but. still not convinced it was that great to do.But she worried more about me driving escorts.. and what i might run into.

As for the Why?.. or Why not..harmful... abuss.. victimising....sinful?. Any one got a relalist rebuk.. to counter the claim.. or opinion...
Of course it comes to choise... and that women are able to make a choise. about there sexual preferances.. and what they do with their body..
.
That there are people that think they know best .. and what they think.. every one shoukd agree with.. is what I find disturbing.. .

The thing is, I think that a life with just one partner and filled with religion is awful, and that religion itself makes victims of people. But I don't go door to door to spread my good word, or try to enforce my alternative lifestyle on anyone. How can someone spout all this religious rhetoric, and truly believe what they are talking about, that they are doing the world good by judging or shaming others? Who is anyone to judge? ...Well, except their chosen God.

It comes down to freedom of choice for both parties. Why are people mixing up human trafficking or children in the sex trade with what I do? Both of those things are already illegal, and for good reason. But for someone to take away my right to choose this as my livelihood, especially when it's is none of their business and has nothing to do with them...isn't that kind of the same thing as forcing someone into human trafficking? Only for me, it would be forcing me back into the food service industry, and instead of my body being sold, it would be my mental health.

Anyway, I think someone has already touched on the fact that this so-called "Nordic Model" doesn't actually work. Just google "Swedish escorts" and you'll see, there are quite a few girls doing just fine. I think they just want to get rid of working girls on the streets. Which is all good in a place like Sweden, where the taxes are sky high and people take care of each other, as opposed to somewhere in Canada, like say, the DTES, where people are sneered at and told to shut up, just stop being addicted to drugs, and get jobs. Maybe if we adopt all of Sweden's standards of living, but I can't see Canadian's being down with paying 60% of their pay to the gov.

 

[johnsmit]

Thanks for the post cameron..

As for the taxes of Sweden... just add up what we pay on our taxable income..
29%...and then there another 5%..gst. and 7% pst... also a bout 1% for medical coverade.
and dont for get gas tax... land and property tax if you own ..

Dont fool your self.. we can pay over 60%. in taxes.. depending how much one makes.. and has
and we dont get any tbing near what they get in sweden for the buck

 

[CJ Tylers]

The way I see it, the more conservative/hardline your take on the matter... whether it's the current status quo or the Nordic model, the more you CONDONE rape and abuse. It's a tacit thing, really, brought on by ignorance or willful contempt... but it's condoning the violence.

Let's face it, Conservative rhetoric spills blood... ends lives... and encourages suffering. They wouldn't say as much, but they simply don't care. And, of course, it's this top down lack of care or concern that encourages the violence and abuse that does occur in the industry. Without local groups and advocates working to highlight the issues, well... we'd still have Robert Picton running amok, for one.

I don't even want to consider what this situation would be like, if further repressive legislation were to come in. Driving it further under ground, destroying the progress that's been made... the potential consequences are alarming.

 

[leoghaire]

if you are to accept that purchasing sex from a woman is a form of violence and/or rape you then have to accept that every time a penis enters a vagina it is violence/rape which is the exact position that radical feminists are taking. In a way it is kind of funny that they are probably forgetting that babies, and I would assume, most of them as well came from a penis entering a vagina.