do you think afghanistan or in afghanistan all hell is going to break loose.

sevenofnine

Active member
Nov 21, 2008
2,014
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it is kind of sad actually
at work there are several parents who have lost kids in afghanistan,

another guy i talk to his son has been there and in a car bombing attack, and he worries for him as in terms of ptsd
it is just sad that some american soldiers are doing everything they can to fuck it up,
peeing on dead bodies, burning the koran and now the mass killing,

what the fuck is the matter with the americans,
don't get me wrong, canadians can do stupid things as well i remember something in somilia but the americans take the prize for screwing things up or trying to,


its interesting i just finished tom clancys book dead or alive,
and in it the ex- presidents son is on or in the front lines on the fight in terror, in a spookish way as in a spy

is that the americans view of themself, giving there best sons and daughters to the fight on terror
its like seriously i just saw in the newspaper prince harry, third in line to the thrown doing some thing in rio i think, and latter he is going to afghanistan to be a front line apache helicoptor pilot.
where as the sad reality is, every president of recent times has done everything he could to avoid any kind of meaningful militiary service,
and it is a rare case with the exception of pat tillman who puts on a uniform everyone else is poor and or black or both, that seems to be the general cry,

don't get me wrong but the brits and canada are much more civilized then the americans are, and i think have a much more realistic view of things, though we both can do incredibly stupid things at times.

the americans don't know but they fucking need to get a grip and well look hard and long in the mirror, or they are going to srew the pooch as they say,
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,645
828
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Going to break loose ?????????????? Kinda think Elvis has left the building on that one.
 

Dgodus

Banned
Nov 5, 2011
855
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Here and There
Should hand him over to the villagers. I'm sure some way he could "escape" (read: secretly forced out) and "get caught" (handed over) to the village to do with him as they see fit. Everybody saves face, Obama didn't turn anyone over and the village gets it's justice. Just needs some military officials who realize that's some depraved shit he did to turn their backs.
 

Tugela

New member
Oct 26, 2010
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The americans wont do anything to him. Don't you remember the cruiser that shot down that Iranian passenger airliner during the Iraq-Iran war? They gave those guys medals for what they did.
 

Dgodus

Banned
Nov 5, 2011
855
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The americans wont do anything to him. Don't you remember the cruiser that shot down that Iranian passenger airliner during the Iraq-Iran war? They gave those guys medals for what they did.
Didn't an American fighter pilot strafe Canadians on a training exercise?
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
2,540
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Calgary
I wont speculate for the after effects all I can say is it is just another nail in the coffin for the Afghan view of western society....if such an offence happened in Canada or the USA the guy would never see daylight again in Canada and if he were an American citizen his lawyer would be fighting against a death penalty conviction.

In the grand scheme of things this action as well as the burnings of a Koran has erased all of the work to build Afghanistan into a modern democracy......would the people of Afghanistan want to adopt to the ways of a western nation when they are faced with acts such as these?......not fucking likely......there will be a shitload of bloodshed and death in the coming days and it will come down to the stupid ignorant act of the burning of the host countrie's holy book and even moreso some fuck head shooting innocent civilians.....all the work(good intentioned) done by western nations will be forgotten and the western nations will leave....thusly leaving Afghanistan in the vacuum it was in when the USSR left the country and after which the Taliban took power.....all of the effort has been pissed down the toilet due to stupidity and a lack of respect as well as something that is totally fucked up.....why did that sergeant go postal and shoot non-combatants?????.......why in the hell did he do it......tis pretty fucked up to grab your automatic rifle and march off base and shoot unarmed and un-threatening people.

SR
 

myselftheother

rubatugtug
Dec 2, 2004
1,274
14
38
vancouver
I wont speculate for the after effects all I can say is it is just another nail in the coffin for the Afghan view of western society....if such an offence happened in Canada or the USA the guy would never see daylight again in Canada and if he were an American citizen his lawyer would be fighting against a death penalty conviction.

In the grand scheme of things this action as well as the burnings of a Koran has erased all of the work to build Afghanistan into a modern democracy......would the people of Afghanistan want to adopt to the ways of a western nation when they are faced with acts such as these?......not fucking likely......there will be a shitload of bloodshed and death in the coming days and it will come down to the stupid ignorant act of the burning of the host countrie's holy book and even moreso some fuck head shooting innocent civilians.....all the work(good intentioned) done by western nations will be forgotten and the western nations will leave....thusly leaving Afghanistan in the vacuum it was in when the USSR left the country and after which the Taliban took power.....all of the effort has been pissed down the toilet due to stupidity and a lack of respect as well as something that is totally fucked up.....why did that sergeant go postal and shoot non-combatants?????.......why in the hell did he do it......tis pretty fucked up to grab your automatic rifle and march off base and shoot unarmed and un-threatening people.

SR
Agreed. All the good things that Canada attempted to do, with opening schools, etc is all down the drain due to the actions of the US.

It's like this; you're hosting a party at someone else's house who happens to have people there who don't like you, some who do, and most who don't know you, but are open minded enough to help you get some snacks and beer on the table. Suddenly the neighbours who you though were ok as you had a few other get togethers before, and sure, they got a little too drunk and had to sleep it off in the back yard....but this time they come by, drink all your beer, insult the owners of the house, beat up his friends, and goosed his wife....then shot the dog, pissed on the stereo and set fire to the home.

Kinda what the Americans did when they shit the bed in Afghanistan. Canada and the UK ought to just pull out tomorrow and never go back. Let that whole region either implode by itself or prosper....enough meddling.
 

jnewton

Loitering on PERB
Aug 9, 2010
378
0
0
Given the history of Afghanistan, I contend that what the US and allies do or don't do there is ultimately irrelevant. The last time they had a stable government was the Kingdom of Bactria and that fell more than 2000 years ago. The only way Genghis Khan could rule there was by obliterating whole cities. Any provocative acts committed by Westerners are going to simply be excuses for that region resuming its historical behavior. What we in the West do or don't do will have no lasting effect as long as the people on the ground choose to live the way they do.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
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48
Montréal
In the grand scheme of things this action as well as the burnings of a Koran has erased all of the work to build Afghanistan into a modern democracy......would the people of Afghanistan want to adopt to the ways of a western nation when they are faced with acts such as these?......not fucking likely......there will be a shitload of bloodshed and death in the coming days and it will come down to the stupid ignorant act of the burning of the host countrie's holy book and even moreso some fuck head shooting innocent civilians.....all the work(good intentioned) done by western nations will be forgotten and the western nations will leave....thusly leaving Afghanistan in the vacuum it was in when the USSR left the country and after which the Taliban took power.....all of the effort has been pissed down the toilet due to stupidity and a lack of respect as well as something that is totally fucked up.....why did that sergeant go postal and shoot non-combatants?????.......why in the hell did he do it......tis pretty fucked up to grab your automatic rifle and march off base and shoot unarmed and un-threatening people.

SR



I think that while the latest Koran burning may have been the last drop, there was already a lot of animosity and hatred felt by the Afghans for the US and occupying forces. I agree that these recent fuck ups have worsened the situation but I don't think it's accurate to see them as the only cause or as an unexpected outcome. The Afghans wanted the US out of there long before these incidents and they didn't exactly see the US or NATO as some kind of humanitarian or benevolent force bringing democracy to their country. And even the US doesn't try very hard to pretend that the government of Afghanistan is a democratic one. It's corrupt and there has never been any doubt about this.

You'd feel the same as they do if a country(ies) that was occupying yours was claiming humanitarian reasons for their presence but at the same time spent years bombing civilian homes, performing night raids into homes, arresting, torturing, raping and indefinitely detaining people, killing innocent men, women and children and leaving the survivors in a perpetual state of fear and terror.

We have to stop only looking through a Western lens when we think or talk about these things. There is no doubt that the US frequent failure to do this is at the root of a lot of animosity and even hatred for them in the world.




The decade-long War in Afghanistan (2001–present) has caused the deaths of thousands of Afghan civilians directly from insurgent and foreign military action, as well as the deaths of possibly tens of thousands of Afghan civilians indirectly as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, crime and lawlessness resulting from the war. The war, launched by the United States as "Operation Enduring Freedom" in 2001, began with an initial air campaign that almost immediately prompted concerns over the number of Afghan civilians being killed as well as international protests. With civilian deaths from airstrikes rising again in recent years, the number of Afghan civilians being killed by foreign military operations has led to mounting tension between the foreign countries and the government of Afghanistan. In May 2007, President Hamid Karzai summoned foreign military commanders to warn them of the consequences of further Afghan civilian deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)





The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq both resulted in the eviction of two of the world’s most repressive regimes, that of Saddam Hussein and that of the Taliban. While bringing democracy to the two countries was not the initial rationale for either war (v. eliminating safe haven to terrorists and weapons of mass destruction), democracy promotion quickly became a stated goal for each.

Nonetheless, on a widely used evaluation and ranking of the quality of democracy across the world’s states, the “Democracy Index,” Iraq ranks poorly.

On the Democracy Index, Afghanistan is categorized as an authoritarian regime and ranks at 150 out of 167. Afghanistan ranks 1.4 on the Transparency International corruption scale – the worst in South Asia. Of the 178 countries assessed, the only countries lower ranked than Afghanistan or Iraq are Myanmar and Somalia.[4]

Democracy promotion was in trouble in Afghanistan from the beginning, at the meeting which resulted in the December 2001 Bonn Agreement. The resuscitation of well-known warlords who had just been installed in their former fiefdoms for the primary purpose of helping the US prosecute the Global War on Terror was of great concern to Afghans. Significantly, Bonn did not include groups concerned about the marginalization of women, human rights advocates, nor representatives of the victims of war and abuse. A significant proportion of the Pashtun community, particularly those associated with the Taliban and rural norms, were not invited to Bonn and were, effectively, relegated to the margins of Afghan politics.

Whereas Afghans do want a say in how they are governed, as indicated in the 70 percent turnout in the 2004 elections, a growing number of citizens are less and less interested in the ineffective democracy that has been on offer. By August 2009, impunity and corruption were more entrenched than before and Karzai’s western backers were still married to the notion that elections, however unconvincing to Afghans, were needed to sustain domestic support in ISAF troop-contributing countries. Elections, and Karzai’s bid to retain his Presidency, were marred by violence and well-documented, systematic fraud.[5] Turnout was low and polling day was the worst single 24-hour period of recorded violent incidents, including the deaths of 57 Afghans, since the overthrow of the Taliban regime. The second round of parliamentary elections in 2010 fared no better in terms of being credible or acceptable to Afghan voters. Little effort had been made to correct either the electoral system or the faults that had marred previous rounds of voting.

http://costsofwar.org/article/did-wars-bring-democracy-afghanistan-and-iraq





Many of the over 3,000 prisoners held at Afghanistan’s Bagram Airbase between 2001 and 2010 were subjected to torture and mistreatment including beatings, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, shackling to ceilings, and threats with guard dogs

A 2009 report from Marine Major General Douglas Stone found that 2/3 of the Bagram detainees being held at the time, many for years without trial, were innocent

Physicians for Human Rights has recognized psychological torture as “systematic and central” to U.S. interrogations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo. Medical personnel reportedly played a key role in making torture possible

In part as a result of torture, hundreds of persons have died while being detained and/or interrogated by the United States

At least 108 such people have died in detention in the first four years of the war, and at least 80 more have died in subsequent years

US disregard for international law in Afghanistan has greatly undermined security and efforts to construct a rule of law system that is just and credible.


http://costsofwar.org/article/torture



Significant numbers of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq have been found innocent and some were released. However, their unjust detention and mistreatment has helped to foment mistrust towards the United States throughout the Middle East. Anti-American sentiment will linger for another generation in the children who observed their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins taken away by Americans without trial to meet an unknown fate.

http://costsofwar.org/article/detention





Quran burning: Mistake, crime, and metaphor

The failure of the US to appreciate the seriousness of Quran burnings undermines claims of benevolence in Afghanistan.



On February 20, 2012 several US soldiers - five of whom have so far been identified - took some Islamic writings, including several copies of the Quran, to a landfill on Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan where they were burned.

As soon as Afghan workers on the scene realised that Qurans were being burned, it was recognised as an act of desecration, and they immediately launched a protest. The protest spread rapidly throughout the country, and turned violent, resulting in at least 30 Afghan deaths, five dead US soldiers, and many non-lethal casualties. The incident is under formal investigation by three distinct boards of inquiry: a US military investigation with authority to recommend disciplinary action against the soldiers; a joint US/Afghan undertaking; and an Afghan investigation leading to recommendations by a council of religious figures.

The US governmental response has been apologetic in tone, but weakly so. President Obama sent a formal apology to the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, expressing regret and explaining that the incident occurred due to carelessness rather than as a deliberate expression of Islamophobia.

In contrast, a reactionary backlash in the US complained that it was the Afghan government that should be apologising, given the loss of US lives and an outburst of violence that was much exaggerated given the accidental nature of the provocation. The reactionary Republican presidential candidate, Rick Santorum, expressed his view in the following language of rebuke: "I think the response need to be apologised for, by Mr Karzai and the Afghan people, for attacking our men and women in uniform and reacting to this inadvertent mistake." He added: "This is the real crime, not what our soldier did."


'Non-apology'

Obama - as usual in such situations - seemed caught in the headlights, publicly justifying the apology as necessary "to save lives ... and to make sure that our troops who are there right now are not placed in further danger". Such a rationale leads to an ironic query: when is an "apology" not an apology? The answer seems to be: when Obama wants to appease foreign anger while at the same time not seeming to weaken his patriotic credentials. In my view he loses ground with both constituencies. Maybe Hillary Clinton had a point during the 2008 campaign for the presidential nomination when she famously taunted Obama: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

What is baffling is the unlearning evident here. There were earlier well-publicised desecrations of the Quran that showed how intense a reaction could result from such behaviour. An outcry followed the disclosure that a Quran had been flushed down a toilet in Guantanamo a few years ago. Somewhat later, a US soldier in Iraq was found to have used a Quran for target practice, which provoked a storm of angry denunciations of the US presence in the country.

...

One would have supposed that a vigilant imperialism would have understood that any disrespect towards the Quran, whether public or private, delivers a severe blow against the US mission in Afghanistan. At least with US troops, such an experience would have led to introducing the most rigorous means to train and discipline occupation forces accordingly. It is not an exaggeration to say that such displays of disrespect for the Quran are more serious setbacks than dramatic defeats on the battlefield. Why? Because it so clearly discredits the US claim to be a humanitarian benefactor by its presence in Afghanistan.


Symbol of unity

There is something deeply disturbing about this compulsive inability to show respect for the most sacred artifacts of a foreign civilisation. The Quran is the holiest of scripture in Afghanistan - not only because Islam is the dominant religion of the country, but also because it underpins the unity embedded in the wider cultural identity of the Afghan people. It is a more potent symbol of Afghan unity than the national flag or constitution in this otherwise most fragmented of countries.

Americans would react furiously, and likely violently, were the Bible to be burned by foreign military personnel somehow present on national territory, but the truth is that the imperial mindset is utterly incapable of comprehending the logic of reciprocity. The contradictory logic of imperium has a different ethic: the wrongs that we do to others we occasionally will excuse as accidental, while being incapable of even imagining that others might dare to do them to us - and if they were stupid enough to do such, a righteous fury would be unleashed.

Tom Friedman, whose arrogance is as boundless as the globalisation he blandly celebrates, tells his readers that Afghan political and religious leaders have made themselves primarily at fault for their failure to protest strongly against "the killing of innocent Americans", especially given the accidental nature of the Quran desecration and Obama's apology. The liberal interpretation of the incident is only softer in tone than Santorum's reactionary rant.

In an important sense, these soldiers, including those who participated in this unfortunate incident, were truly "innocent". They are themselves both participants and victims of an occupation of a foreign country that should never have been attempted, and is proving as futile as those many prior Western attempts to domesticate Afghanistan well-chronicled in Deepak Tripathi's illuminating book, Breeding Ground: Afghanistan and the Origins of Islamist Terrorism.

Those who are most responsible, in my judgment, are those who have mandated such a war, and this includes the president and those who favoured the war policies that have led to a misguided, ten-year military presence in Afghanistan with few results except this upsurge of vitriolic anti-American sentiment and a torn country. The best that the United States can hope for after inflicting such an ordeal is some deal negotiated with the Taliban, the original mortal enemy, which portends a political future for Afghanistan not at all to Washington's liking (nor is the prospect of an empowered Taliban consoling to the majority of Afghans). After all those billions spent; lives lost, sacrificed, and misshaped; and devastation wrought, there is nothing left but the slim hope of learning from defeat after the fact. With the Iran war drums beating, it seems like an idle fancy that the US political elite will seek the intensive rehab it needs to have any chance of recovering from its addictive militarism.


Touching nerves

Of course, unleashing violence in response to desecration does make for a sorry spectacle, and reflects badly on the quality of religious leadership in Afghanistan. At the same time, Afghan clerical leadership's call for an end to nighttime raids on Afghan homes and their insistence on the US military turning over the administration of prisons to the Afghan government seem like reasonable demands. They touch the raw nerve of the US occupation, and for this reason will not be accommodated. These US-run activities have been consistently perceived by the Afghan people as principal sources of "occupation terror".

The response of US officials to these demands sounds as though it were lifted from a colonial handbook: that raids in the middle of the night are effective operations, and that the Afghan judicial system is not capable of the handling the legal issues associated with dangerous Afghan detainees. Such a response unintentionally poses an awkward question: Who governs Afghanistan at this time? It has long been the case that the limits of Karzai's mandate are not set in Kabul, but by distant Pentagon and White House officials - a reality that makes a mockery of US claims of respect for Afghan rights of self-determination.

What is at stake touches on the essence of military intervention and foreign occupation, much more than the secondary question of whether to treat Quran burning as a mistake or a crime. It is, of course, from differing perspectives both a mistake and a crime, but aside from this, the Quran burning is a telling metaphor for all the many instances of flawed Western diplomacy, consisting of military intervention and foreign occupation.

Such types of diplomacy fly in the face of colonialism's collapse and the rise of non-Western religion and culture, and produce one costly geopolitical failure after another. To burn the most holy scripture of a culture, whether by inadvertence or calculation, is the most delegitimising acknowledgement of bad motives and intentions that one can imagine.

In this regard, Quran burning is as provocative an assault on Afghan political culture as was the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, with respect to the authoritarian cruelty in Tunisia under Ben Ali, who was driven from power as a direct result. The failure of the United States government even now to appreciate the seriousness of what has happened, despite several earlier intimations of the great popular significance attached to any show of disrespect towards Islam throughout the Muslim world, is monumentally discrediting to its claims of benevolence - and undermines its goal of quelling the global threat of anti-Western terrorism.


Richard Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University and Visiting Distinguished Professor in Global and International Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He has authored and edited numerous publications spanning a period of five decades, most recently editing the volume International Law and the Third World: Reshaping Justice (Routledge, 2008).

He is currently serving his third year of a six year term as a United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/03/20123785644715832.html



Why the Afghanistan war won't end soon
The American insensitivity towards civilian deaths over the years seems to be having a strong backlash.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201181592644232878.html





<div style="width:400px"><embed src="http://www.cultureunplugged.com/swf/embedplayer.swf" width="400" height="320" flashvars="video=http://cdn.cultureunplugged.com/lg/AFGHANISTAN_UNVEILED_5627.mp4&m=5627&u=0&thumb=http://cdn.cultureunplugged.com/thumbnails/lg/5627.jpg&sURL=http://www.cultureunplugged.com&title=Afghanistan Unveiled&from=Ainaworld" name="cultureUnpluggedPlayer" quality="high" salign="b" allowScriptAccess="always" align="middle" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed><div style="margin-top:5px;text-align:center"><a href="http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/5627/Afghanistan-Unveiled" target="_blank">View this movie at cultureunplugged.com</a></div></div>
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
44
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Montréal
.​


I had watched a talk by Robert Fisk about his book "The age of the Warrior" last year and watched it again last night. Here's a short clip of it:









If you want to watch the whole thing...







http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...urnalism-a-distorted-view-of-war-2141072.html

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00440

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-military-and-its-cult-of-cruelty-416202.html







<div style="width:400px"><embed src="http://www.cultureunplugged.com/swf/embedplayer.swf" width="400" height="320" flashvars="video=http://cdn.cultureunplugged.com/lg/LOSING_HOPE_WOMEN.mp4&m=1826&u=0&thumb=http://cdn.cultureunplugged.com/thumbnails/lg/1826.jpg&sURL=http://www.cultureunplugged.com&title=Losing Hope - Women in Afghanistan&from=Integrated Regional Information Networks" name="cultureUnpluggedPlayer" quality="high" salign="b" allowScriptAccess="always" align="middle" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed><div style="margin-top:5px;text-align:center"><a href="http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/1826/Losing-Hope - Women in Afghanistan" target="_blank">View this movie at cultureunplugged.com</a></div></div>






Kill Teams in Afghanistan: The Truth

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/30/kill-team-photos-afghanistan-us








http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/201...ky-denounce-us-occupation-of-afghanistan.html

http://www.worldwidewamm.org/newsletters/2011/0511/joya.html

http://www.malalaijoya.com/dcmj/
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,536
302
83
In Lust Mostly
Once again in Afghanistan, it is history repeating itself all over again.

"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson

1980.
 

myselftheother

rubatugtug
Dec 2, 2004
1,274
14
38
vancouver
Thanks, Al. Very much sums up the latest US bed-shitting. All it took was a few really bad decisions and terrible acts to completely undermine any humanitarian aspect of the mission that Canada and our allies fought for. The price paid for the 10 years of Canada and our allies, of what the people of Kandahar endured for even longer with the Taliban, the Soviets, etc...all the dead who were combatants, civilians who got caught up in a car bomb or the girls who were maimed and killed for going to a new school, the Afghan men who joined the police or army to fight and die for a better life....all who died, were injured, wounded, lost loved ones here and there, parents of young men and women who died over there....all means nothing now, due to the actions of US soldiers who might as well be fighting along side the Taliban, for all the damage they wrought.

These soldiers from the US really just fucked over their allies, again. Friendly fire, atrocities, Gmo Bay, Iraq, and now this. Thanks, America...you just as well pissed away any credibility for future actions on the world stage. As Al's posted quote sez...They deserved better than this....everyone. Just a question....these american troops and special forces...they've only just been transfered from the Iraq conflict for just about a year, right? If so, they did more damage in one year to the West's effort than the Taliban has done in 10 years.....it makes me feel ill to think of all the sacrifice, now means nothing. Thanks America!
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,645
828
113
While U.S. attitudes may leave something to be desired, I get the feeling the U.S. Military has some deep rooted problems. While they consider themselves a professional force, I don't see them directing the resources needed to deal with repeated deployments. There is still hope for Afghanistan, if there was some way to do it without the Americans on the ground. Lots of countries have capable troops, just not the logistics or the technology.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/lewis-mcchord-us-soldier-attack?newsfeed=true

 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
44
48
Montréal
Hi Miss*Bijou. Your posts are, as always, detailed, with references, and whatever is the opposite of succinct! There's honestly just too many links than I care to follow, today at least, but I want to participate in this discussion, so I would just like to address a portion of what you've written if that's ok.
Well that's the great thing about links, you're free to follow them or not. I happen to be really into links/footnotes and I find them useful for a bunch of different reasons, among them the opportunity it gives me to read more about a given subject, if I choose to. But basically, you're free to ignore the links but I'm getting a little tired of people complaining regardless of how I write: First it's my posts that are too long, so I include some links instead of writing as much. Then it's because there are too many links - why don't I just quote from the link. And on and on. You guys are pretty unlucky I don't give up so easily, so really, do what you want but spare me the sarcasm please.


You don't honestly think that the armed forces of the country you live in, i.e. the Canadian Forces, are a bunch of thugs that for the last 10 years have been going around and picking random villages full of innocent people to drop bombs on, raiding innocent peoples homes for no particular reason, arresting, torturing and detaining innocent people, raping the local population to service their sexual needs, and generally terrorizing the women and children with a view to leave them in a perpetual state of fear and terror? Or that any one of our allies as a matter of daily practice is doing the same thing?

Or are you saying that when you read about some of the atrocities that have happened in the Afghan war, it sickens you and makes you feel as if that's what happens on a daily basis, but the analytical part of you know that's it's not quite that simple. And you can realize that even though we can find an example of a house that was raided and it was full of innocent people, we can also find 10 examples of houses that were raided, and they contained IED factories, and those raids saved thousands of innocent lives, including local Aghans.

I would honestly like to hear you viewpoint on this. And just for the record, and I mean this respectfully, I don't need 10 links to incidents that have happened, I know things have happened, I've seen them with my own eyes. I'm just looking for your viewpoint.

Of course I know it isn't every single soldier that is behaving this way but there have been too many who have been caught to dismiss it and even if we want to, it's clear that Afghans do not want to.

My viewpoint is that it has been 10 years, the Taliban is still there, not much has improved for the majority of average Afghans, they want us out and they're getting more and pissed off by our presence. My viewpoint is that we can offer help, real humanitarian help, without continuing the military occupation which they do not want.




This concept makes a lot of sense, "try to see the other person's point of view". Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. Because our values and beliefs form the core of who we are.

We're not in Kansas anymore. When in Rome...

The point is even though it may not be easy, it has to be done. The fact is that we aren't the only ones who's perspective matters and to try to see through their perspective without clouding it with our issues of entitlement, is the very least we can do. Not to mention it is the only way we can ever hope to have a clue what help is needed and what help is not. Regardless of our values and beliefs, even if they are complete opposites, it doesn't change some basics desires every human being on the planet wants as well. Self determination is one of those.



For example, we see poor health conditions in Afghanistan, and observe a village shitting in, bathing, and drinking from the same water source. And to them that is culturally acceptable. So we go in, build them a well, and advise them to stop drinking the contamined water. Are we forcing our culture on them? What lens should we be looking thru?

Or maybe we see a police officer sodomizing a 10 year old boy, because culturally men have sex with women for procreation, so men work out their sexual urges with other men or if you're so inclined, take a comfort boy. Which lens should we be looking thru then? Should we just turn a blind eye and let the boy get raped so as not to put our values onto others?

Or maybe we see a grown man splash acid into a little girls face because she wants to go to school and learn how to read. And experience tells us these people are the same guys that have no issues with blowing up entire schools to terrorize the population away from education. What would be the appropriate lens then?


I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, I'm aware of all of these atrocious things. But what does it have to do with foreign occupation? These things aren't going to be stopped through foreign occupation. But right now we are and have been supporting a known corrupt government, full of warlords and we're not making things any better. Are you saying this is the purpose of our presence being there? Of the presence of U.S. troops?

Grown men and women splash acid into girls faces in parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. Children are sold into brothels in Cambodia, Moldova etc. Should we send our forces there too? Is that the role of the military? To change barbaric customs? Since when? (I'm glad you are concerned about mean who sodomize boys - what's your take on the sodomizing of Afghan detainees in US-run prisons?)

In Palestine, as a direct result of Israeli occupation, children are suffering and dying from malnutrition, lack of proper medical care (not to mention from bombs, gun shots to the head and depleted uranium!) because the delivery of food and medical supplies is restricted to less than the minimum amount they need. Contaminated water in Afghanistan, you say? Palestinians had wells before hundreds of them were bombed at different times. Water? Sanitation? Israelis block delivery of parts needed for their sanitation plants so they're forced to dump their waste into the sea, where it accumulates daily. And while illegal settlements continue to be built illegally, these settlements use 6 times more water per capita, enough for green lawns and swimming pools - while the Palestinians receive LESS than the minimum recommended amount of water they need.

But we're certainly not there to build wells, are we?

In fact, our government actually cut all aid going to Palestine through the UNRHA because Israel decided they didn't like the government the Palestinians themselves voted for in democratic elections, so we went along - even though no one's claimed our aid money wasn't being used to help Palestinians or that it was being withheld by corrupt government like we know has been going on for years in Afghanistan. Instead, our government gives Israel its full support. In fact our foreign minister repeatedly says we are their biggest supporter when he visits as he did recently.

And you still want me to believe that this is why we need to be in Afghanistan? Please.

So why is foreign occupation necessary then? It's commendable if this is something you want to do for Afghans, but it certainly is not our government's motivation and killing more civilians (or soldiers) isn't the way to do it nor is it why it's being done. I'm sorry you feel personally offended by my comments because that is not at all the point I was making with my comments. You pay good lip service to seeing through another lens but unfortunately then you refuse to bother to do it, starting with some of the links I included.
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
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The last time they had a stable government was the Kingdom of Bactria and that fell more than 2000 years ago.
The last time Afghanistan had a 'stable' government was under the Taliban. They ended the civil war. However, it was not a 'humane' government.

Prior to that, the last stable government was the Durrani empire during the early 19th century.

Due to the geographic location of Afghanistan, it has always been under invasion from it's neighbours, or doing the invading. They never seem to get left alone.

This present atrocity won't have any sort of backlash. The Afghans have been living with bloodshed of this nature for many generations now. Those that are capable of violent reactions are already doing it. Or trying. The rest seem to have resigned themselves, incapable of reacting.
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
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This present atrocity won't have any sort of backlash. The Afghans have been living with bloodshed of this nature for many generations now. Those that are capable of violent reactions are already doing it. Or trying. The rest seem to have resigned themselves, incapable of reacting.
hi ray, how's it going? nothing to say here - i just thought i would preserve your prediction for a later date, sometimes things have a way of disappearing around here, lol... cheers :)
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,254
343
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vancouver
hi ray, how's it going? nothing to say here - i just thought i would preserve your prediction for a later date, sometimes things have a way of disappearing around here, lol... cheers
Save away. :thumb:
 

jnewton

Loitering on PERB
Aug 9, 2010
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The last time Afghanistan had a 'stable' government was under the Taliban. They ended the civil war. However, it was not a 'humane' government.

Prior to that, the last stable government was the Durrani empire during the early 19th century.
I don't consider the scant decade of Taliban rule a reasonable example of stable government. As for the Durrani empire, it was unraveling before the death of its founder and was effectively dead withing 50 years of his death. Again, hardly a stable government if it couldn't last long enough to outlive one long generation.
 

JClay

Member
Jun 21, 2007
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There is still hope for Afghanistan, if there was some way to do it without the Americans on the ground.
Pipe dream. Look at the numbers in terms of nations contributing troops.

Afghanistan is not a problem that can be solved in the short term. It will require a multi-generational commitment to effect real change and that is not something any Western country has the stomach to undertake, particularly in the current economic climate.

And Bijou, how do you propose to kickstart development without troops on the ground? Private security contractors? I hear they've got pretty stellar reputations. ;)
 
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