Design of Electric Cars

[80watts]

I remember reading in POP Mechanics the future of electric cars. (1990s)
The design would be 4 wheels, with the battery as the base/floor of the car in the middle. This would leave the center of gravity really low and in the center of the car, compared to gas engines which are higher and to the place of the engine. The 4 wheels would have electric motors, with braking producing electricity when stopping.
This left alot of room for the interior of the car. Making it more roomy...
In the last 30 years there have been adaptations of the electric car. Hybrids- gas motor and electric drive. The fuel cell (used hydrogen to produce the electricity). These came out because of the lack of infrastruture to just support electric vehicles (remember this was 20- 30 years ago). So the electricity had to be made in the car.

If you put the engine (to produce the electricity) in the car you have weight problems and also the cost of inefficient transfers of energy.

For a solar cell: solar cell to storage battery to car battery. Each transfer is a loss of efficiency.
Fuel Cell: Water to hydrogen to fuel cell to electricity. Biggest loss is making hydrogen. Also there is the mass of fuel cell and hydrogen tank to consider.

Tesla cars use only batteries due to the inefficiencies in transfering power from one form to another. The option here was to let big companies produce the electricity and just have the cars use it. So the electricity was not made in the car.

The problems with electric cars is the range and when you need a new battery. Also most houses do not have charging station already there. After all you want to charge it at home.

The future would be an hydrogen engine (Gas turbine or ICE - (but the material science isn't there for the temperatures reached), or fuel cell ), but the handling of hydrogen is suspect. Compare it to liquid propane, most cities don't like those large bottles of propane due to BLEVY (liquid explosion) concerns. Its like nice big crater....

 

[johnnydepth]

Interesting topic, but was there a question in there?

 

[masterpoonhunter]

Good topic for discussion.
Battery tech is getting better on an almost daily basis so the tipping point of cost vs range vs infrastructure is coming up fast.
For battery history I was really surprised to hear that the Nissan Leaf had been out for as long as it has been and over time has outsold all other EV's put together.
As for me I can't wait for the bench seat to come back !

 

[Uncled]

Electric vehicles are awesome if you live in California or coastal BC.

My question is, if you live on the Prairies and it is -35 degrees Celsius, how much battery capacity will you be using just to keep the interior heated and the windows defrosted?

 

[johnnydepth]

Electric vehicles are awesome if you live in California or coastal BC.

My question is, if you live on the Prairies and it is -35 degrees Celsius, how much battery capacity will you be using just to keep the interior heated and the windows defrosted?

They have suggested various numbers but somewhere around 1/3 + seems to be realistic. That however is on a new car. On a10 year old battery likely well over 1/2.

 

[westwoody]

Electric vehicles are awesome if you live in California or coastal BC.

My question is, if you live on the Prairies and it is -35 degrees Celsius, how much battery capacity will you be using just to keep the interior heated and the windows defrosted?

Two of my neighbour have Tesla S cars. No problem today and it was frikkin cold.

 

[johnnydepth]

Two of my neighbour have Tesla S cars. No problem today and it was frikkin cold.

No they don't have a problem starting. Just instead of say 400km range in summer you only get maybe 275km or so in winter. Depends on the manufacturer, model and age, etc...

 

[rlock]

I think if governments were smart about this, they'd push hard for fleet vehicles (for example delivery vehicles like the Ford Transit, or taxis / Ubers, or municipal vehicles, etc.) to only be EV's from now on.
Car companies building EV's are prioritizing the typical commuter-consumer, and the result is we get EV's that are sports cars, tiny cars, or (lately) crossover SUV's.

Plus consider that for every electric vehicle, there needs to be somewhere to charge it up, and those street chargers are never going to be numerous enough once the population adopts EV's in very large numbers. Charging a car takes way more time than filling gas, and building a charging station makes less economic sense if individuals are expected to install them piecemeal in small numbers. For the typical commuter, here are basically only two places it makes sense to charge a car, due to how long it takes: at home or work.

But when you think about how electric vehicles are used, and their need to be parked for hours to charge, it is WAY more efficient and environmentally effective to convert the massive number of vehicles that are tied to the same area and go back to work yards and so on at the end of every day. Creating a high-voltage charging station is more economical to create an array of chargers rather than just 1 or 2. Once you get to building larger than a single-family home or duplex, BC Hydro probably needs to get involved anyways - easier to justify for larger commercial & industrial facilities than for homes. Plus if the charge cannot last all day, you have the flexibility to come back to base and exchange it for another vehicle.
Even maintenance things like battery replacement are more economical in larger numbers; you might have enough vehicles to be able to service them on-site or else not worry about some going down for maintenance. (A regular commuter cannot say this).

The taxis are already well on the way to this point, having realized how economical it is many years ago. The only thing they're missing now is EV's for the "specialty" cabs (like the wheelchair ones).

Examples:
1) How many little trucks does Canada Post have in urban & suburban areas? They go out and do their daily routine, and predictably come back to the same place, where dozens of them are parked side by side. Each postal truck can get a docking station, and if the juice starts to run out mid-shift, they just drive back to HQ and drive out a different vehicle that's already charged. Except for in the far rural areas, they may do long loops around town, but they are never far from home.
1B) Courier companies - the ones with their own trucks that operate from a central facility: same deal as the posties.
2) City of Vancouver, Surrey, North Vancouver(s) and so on. They have a big variety of vehicles, but they also tend to stay within their jurisdiction and usually come back to base at the end of the day.
3) Airports, shopping malls, etc. - same deal - these are facility vehicles, and probably never leave the facility except to get gas for themselves. Eliminate the gassing up part, and the various security and maintenance vehicles need never leave the site at all.
4) Eventually fire departments, ambulances, cops - these tend to stay in their jurisdiction, but also remember how much tech / equipment are in these vehicles, and what do those require? Electrical power. If you can make EV's that can endure a typical shift, then there's no reason why one wouldn't.
5) Short haul trucks - again, the kind that tend to come back to the same place, not travel hundreds of km.

I realize that a lot of these kind of vehicles have not been invented yet as EV's, but that's exactly the problem. Just take a look one day at traffic around Metro Vancouver, Calgary, anywhere urban or suburban. How many cars you see are actually company vehicles or work vehicles? Commuters who just go "there and back again" once a day are not as dominant on the roads as most people think, and they do not drive nearly as many total km. as those that are driven for a living. So if we're talking about efficiency and eliminating carbon emissions, you'd think the vehicle designers should prioritize the vehicles that are out on the roads the most, and those aren't the "prestige" vehicles commuters have.

Once they can create those blue collar EV's and install the charger banks in their home facilities, that will be a game changer. And this is really low-hanging fruit, so if the car manufacturers are not getting on this ASAP, time for government to crack the bullwhip and force it to happen (and make changes to their own fleets to set the example).

 

[PuntMeister]

EV’s getting there, one step after another, but lots of work yet to come.

Engineers at Toyota and others starting with hybrids did desire mid-vehicle battery placement for handling, but it’s really hard to to service and god help you if you need to replace them. Trunk won out — closer to motors/shorter wire runs, and a few engineering tricks made the handling just fine. So practicality wins again.

EV’s dirty little secrets;

- Tesla batteries currently use nasty Cobalt which is not green and mined in troubled Congo region. Tesla working on alternatives (Iron-Li) but size may double over cobalt. Work to do.

- Coal. Yup, if you live in the USA, that EV of yours gets recharged by nice green coal-fired power generation plants. That or nukes. Wind and solar will remains drops in the bucket for decades.

- Charging late at night is good when grid is under-capacity and utilities don’t want to turn off / restart power generators. Expect regulations to come where you get home, plug in your EV, and the grid decides when it gets charged, as long as it gets its juice be 6am. I kno, big brother in my ev bank!

 

[marsvolta]

you want to see EV's and more fuel saving cars materialize? tell government to change how they tax and license. in other countries consumers are not sucking on the dicks of auto manufacturers looking to sell them "more powerful" vehicles that they don't need. in other countries vehicles are partly taxed on engine size. that means that japans economy has literally run on "kei trucks" for decades and consumers have a huge selection of smaller fuel efficient vehicles to choose from. to auto manufactures here in north american, bigger vehicles mean bigger profits and so the image of the "powerful" machine is perpetuated irrespective of cost and environmental concern.

 

[Uncled]

bigger vehicles mean bigger profits and so the image of the "powerful" machine is perpetuated irrespective of cost and environmental concern.

But I need a big, powerful car to compensate for . . . something. ?

 

[PuntMeister]

Ya! I can’t be badass without a pickup truck I seldom use as a truck, but it makes me feel good driving tons of metal and rubber around town and intimidating slow drivers in the fast lane. I even got the nascar sticker of the little meanie-head boy pissing on another brand.

Americana baby.

 

[VinVan]

Elon has bet big on the current Lithium Ion battery technology, but new solid state batteries are around the corner and they will be a game changer. Able to recharge in 10 minutes, 500 km range, and virtually non-combustible because there is no liquid.

From Nikkei Asia:

TOKYO -- A trip of 500 km on one charge. A recharge from zero to full in 10 minutes. All with minimal safety concerns. The solid-state battery being introduced by Toyota promises to be a game changer not just for electric vehicles but for an entire industry.

The technology is a potential cure-all for the drawbacks facing electric vehicles that run on conventional lithium-ion batteries, including the relatively short distance traveled on a single charge as well as charging times. Toyota plans to be the first company to sell an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery in the early 2020s. The world's largest automaker will unveil a prototype next year.

The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions. All accomplished without sacrificing interior space in even the most compact vehicle.


Solid-state batteries are expected to become a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries that use aqueous electrolyte solutions. The innovation would lower the risk of fires, and multiply energy density, which measures the energy a battery can deliver compared to its weight.

It would take roughly 10 minutes to charge an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery, cutting the recharging time by two-thirds. The battery can extend the driving distance of a compact electric vehicle while maintaining legroom.

Toyota stands at the top of the global heap with over 1,000 patents involving solid-state batteries. Nissan Motor plans to develop its own solid-state battery which will power a non-simulation vehicle by 2028.

 

[JimDandy]

A very recent illuminating article on progress of electric vehicles:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...int-of-mass-adoption?utm_source=pocket-newtab

 

[johnnydepth]

Here are a few interesting things. Plans to phase out fossil fuels
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles
Amazon and Rivian creating a delivery fleet
https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/8/21507495/amazon-electric-delivery-van-rivian-date-specs
Musk/ Tesla perhaps buying one of the three "big ones"
https://driving.ca/tesla/features/f...h-what-if-tesla-buys-general-motors-this-year

I definitely think electrics are picking up momentum. One of the big problems right now is they are priced too high for the average vehicle owner.

 

[islander1-1]

Some day in the future,,, The LIM will make the transition to Personal transit vehicles. Along side the 401.... one lane east and one lane west. a path with a linier induction motor track... at designated stations you can drive your car onto the track and the system will take over everything. Energy is supplied by the track, not within your vehicle, the system takes over the guidance via wifi or bluetooth... (possibly an even more secure system) you can sit back, relax, watch the view or watch a movie on your flat screen or even on the front windshield of the car, while traveling at over 160 or even 200K + exactly the same as everyone else. A trip from Vancouver to Calgary could take say 4.8 hrs.. you get off at the station there and still close to fully charged to get to your final destination.

Or.... we figure out how to do antigravity.

 

[take8easy]

I bought a Tesla 3 about five months ago and I posted a thread about it as well.

https://perb.cc/xenforo/threads/tesla-model-3-review.292771/page-3#post-2148559
Overall I am happy with it. The biggest complaint or I should call it a drawback is the range. It can be charged for about 350 kms but in reality, it only goes about 65-70% of the range it shows. If you are going on a longer trip then it can be charged for about 400 kms which I have never done. It uses more power during cold weather. Also, it would be more efficient on a trip with fewer stops because it keeps using the power even when it is stopped.

It's different from conventional vehicles that you just can not just get up and go on a trip not worrying about not having fuel in the tank. You HAVE to plan your trip. If you have a family, then I would not recommend a Tesla as the only vehicle. It would be better to have another hybrid or a regular gas vehicle.

Based on my experience, I would say it is an excellent car if your daily routine is fairly predictable. You have a set route at set times and you are home in the evening so you just plug in. It probably will not suit someone who lives in urban or semi urban area.

Fuel wise, my estimate is that it costs about 0.023 cents per km. Compare that to say a Toyota Corolla that goes about .10 cents per km. So far I am saving at least 75% on gas, use of HOV lane and no maintenance.

Having said that, the technology still have a way to go but it is only going to get better. Within next 5 to 10 years I am sure we will see cars fitted with batteries that give us longer range.

 

[rlock]

EV’s dirty little secrets;

- Tesla batteries currently use nasty Cobalt which is not green and mined in troubled Congo region. Tesla working on alternatives (Iron-Li) but size may double over cobalt. Work to do.

- Coal. Yup, if you live in the USA, that EV of yours gets recharged by nice green coal-fired power generation plants. That or nukes. Wind and solar will remains drops in the bucket for decades.

If people want to point that Congo shit out, it's really a false sort of argument. Congo has been fucked since the 1800's by 1st world countries - everything they produce has been produced under working conditions that are awful. Rubber, bananas, diamonds, anything really. Cobalt is not some new thing - it's been used for generations for many things, including specialty steelmaking. So why pick on cobalt, in particular? The answer is: the fossil fuel lobby will try any anti-environmental argument they can invent, and some people are foolish enough to fall for it. If anyone actually feel sorry for Congo (or Africa in general) then they should support leaving African wealth from African minerals in African hands, instead of supporting / allowing all the foreign-sponsored coups, corruption, mercenaries, religious missionaries and so on, that are used to make sure Africans can never keep the wealth that should rightfully be theirs. That's what fucks Africans up, not the fact they have useful resources. Blah blah, I diverted into geopolitics, but the point is: cobalt itself is not the problem, and nobody's conscience should stop them from going forward on EV's because of it.

As for coal, yeah you can blame not just the Bush/Trumps of the world but the Obama / Bidens also, for hanging on to the idea of burning coal for electricity for far too long. They have had many years to change from coal to something else, but none had the political courage to go "look, voters, the age of thermal coal is over, and delaying it will just mean the pain of changing will be worse later on". Australia and Germany are still stuck on the idea too, it's not just the Yanks. And Canada... Why do we even still have some coal plants on the Prairies and in the Atlantic provinces? But all that doesn't argue against EV's - it argues for converting the power grid to clean(er) energy, rapidly.

 

[rlock]

But I need a big, powerful car to compensate for . . . something. ?

I saw an ad today for [I forget which car company], where some kids are always fighting for space in the family vehicle, but one day their parents buy an even larger SUV which allows them to finally have some peaceful relations. This is the selling point of the ad.
What brazen bullshit this is - what a stretch of logic ! Put another way, the sales pitch is: "Buy an overly large SUV to compensate for the fact that you're a bad parent who can't deal with it when your kids are brats".

 

[80watts]

Actually something like over 15-20 years ago, people were getting on the bandwagon for more fuel effiecient cars/electric cars, then the car/gas lobby got on to congress with an write off for 100,000.00 for a company vehicle. You got it, people went out and bought those big cars and trucks and humvees..... basicly killing the electric/fuel efficient cars....
Today new technology for greener electricity depends on rare-earth metals (magnets and electric motors usually need magnets to work). The major source-- 95% which is in China....

The problem is still gas is cheaper than developing new technologies, so we burn gas. Alot of those coal plants have changed over to natural gas. But still natural gas is cleaner than coal, but it still produces CO2. Coal when treated to get rid of impurities like Sulphur, burns cleaner than it used to.

The technology for green energy for solar and wind, has a limiting factor on the rare-earth metals. The big problem is how to recylce those metals, held up in phones and other high tech gadgets that we use everyday. Learning new ways to recycle those metal will help. Until then most high tech companies are at the mercy of China....

The rare-earth metals are usually found near ore sites. So I can see alot of testing of waste from old iron/steel forging places.