Decriminalizing Sex work

[Once you go black]

Now that drugs are de criminalized
, and let’s face it all drugs not just soft anymore .

Adding to that the west coast seems to like being at the forefront of decriminalizing things .

I mean , I never thought cocaine would be legal but now you can carry around a small amount w you and nothing will happen .

Does anyone think sex work will finally be de criminalized based on safer conditions for the ladies ?

Or do you think the boys in Ottawa are too worried about the blow back from house wives ?

 

[vanperb]

I honestly believe if "Bedford v. Attorney General" hadn't been heard by the Supreme Court during Harper's time as Prime Minister, Bill C-36 would be very different from what it is now. Unfortunately, no one can time when a case will be heard.
Full decriminalization is an inevitability as far as I'm concerned, but no one is going to like the time line. There are no cases working it's way up the courts to challenge the status quo, and as a whole the country as other priorities. It'll happen when the world is fatter, and more stable.

As an unpopular opinion, I believe the government should go a step further and move sex work into legalization. Sex work is work, and it should join the rest of us in terms of regulation, taxation, and licensing. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, construction workers, and many more professions all have regulatory guidelines, health codes, criminal boundaries, and reporting structures. Sex work as far as I'm concerned is just as, if not more important, than some of the "professional" track careers for the health of a society. And as such it needs to be treated and framed as an equal to other professions. It is absolutely the wild west right now, and legalization will bring accountability and respectability to prostitution.

 

[susi]

I honestly believe if "Bedford v. Attorney General" hadn't been heard by the Supreme Court during Harper's time as Prime Minister, Bill C-36 would be very different from what it is now. Unfortunately, no one can time when a case will be heard.
Decriminalization is an inevitability as far as I'm concerned, but no one is going to like the time line. There are no cases working it's way up the courts to challenge the status quo, and as a whole the country as other priorities. It'll happen when the world is fatter, and more stable.

As an unpopular opinion, I believe the government should go a step further and move sex work into legalization. Sex work is work, and it should join the rest of us in terms of regulation, taxation, and licensing. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, construction workers, and many more professions all have regulatory guidelines, health codes, criminal boundaries, and reporting structures. Sex work as far as I'm concerned is just as, if not more important, than some of the "professional" track careers for the health of a society. And as such it needs to be treated and framed as an equal to other professions. It is absolutely the wild west right now, and legalization will bring accountability and respectability to prostitution.

So, there is a case working it's way through court right now..... and I am sorry but we had legalization before....legalization is what was struck down in the Bedford Case. Legalization implies there will be Criminal COde provisions related to sex work....and allowed serial killers to operate with impunity killing over decades....

Decriminalization uses labor law and other laws which already exist to regulate criminal behaviour if it happens within the industry - like human trafficking, child sexual exploitation, robbery, assault,

I agree with sentiments about the "wild west" and I assure you there are detailed plans underway to provide guidelines and standards for the industry.

This would fall under a Labor Code/ Business ethics however, not the criminal code...

Sex workers have been working on these plans for a long time but with the case going forward it feels like now is the time to attempt to implement some of these ideas.... As I have shared things before here on PERB i will share things to gain people's perspectives here and we could even hold a meeting? if people like....we did that before as well....it could be via zoom and people could use fake names, not use their cameras...etc...for confidentiality...?

I will also say...the "taxation" discsussion has been beaten to death...we pay our taxes, you cannot get credit or do anything in this wolrd with out a declared income...so please remember...sex workers already do most of the things you describe...all businesses b=must be licensed for example, sex work businesses are not different

as far as "criminal boundaries"...as a criminalized group, requiring any kind of criminal record check is counter productive...i have a criminal record from 30 years ago ffs....the police "coded" my charges to last on my record for 99 years....yeah....

Anyway, i know you mean well with this post I just think you are really supporting decrim...not legalization...decrim will cover the things you described .....legalization will not

love susie

 

[MissingOne]

As an unpopular opinion, I believe the government should go a step further and move sex work into legalization. Sex work is work, and it should join the rest of us in terms of regulation, taxation, and licensing. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, construction workers, and many more professions all have regulatory guidelines, health codes, criminal boundaries, and reporting structures. Sex work as far as I'm concerned is just as, if not more important, than some of the "professional" track careers for the health of a society. And as such it needs to be treated and framed as an equal to other professions. It is absolutely the wild west right now, and legalization will bring accountability and respectability to prostitution.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but clients who favour legalization need to remember that if sex work were treated like any of the professions you mention, the anonymity that many clients now cherish would go out the window. Sex workers would most likely be required to "know" their clients, in the same way as health care or other professionals are required to know them now. Records would have to be kept. Clients would most likely have to provide SPs with a means of contacting them in case of an emergency such as a health issue.

The sort of thing I describe wouldn't bother me if providing and receiving sexual services were legal, but lots of pooners wouldn't be able to deal with that due to their personal situations. I suspect that even if sex work were legal, there'd still be a clandestine sex trade catering to those who'd want their activities kept secret.

 

[westwoody]

More decriminalizing might require more documentation of hours worked, accurate book keeping, maybe even GST/PST.
All that might be a pain in the ass but it might be good for some sex workers. Sex workers should be eligible for some benefits like workmen’s compensation or health care plans.

 

[Oldfart]

More decriminalizing might require more documentation of hours worked, accurate book keeping, maybe even GST/PST.
All that might be a pain in the ass but it might be good for some sex workers. Sex workers should be eligible for some benefits like workmen’s compensation or health care plans.

If I understood Susi correctly, you are describing what would happen in the case of legalization and not decriminalization.

Legalization might require collecting taxes.

Accurate bookkeeping is already a requirement for everyone who operates a business, whether or not it is regulated by the government (legalized, decriminalized, or as it currently exists).

 

[westwoody]

Required but not always done.
I mean accurate that would survive CRA scrutiny, or be accepted as an accurate record by WCB for benefit assessment.
I know several small business owners who are terrible at bookkeeping.
A topic for another thread.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

How do other countries, ie Holland, do it?
Does Sex Work have to be decriminalized, legalized etc?
Why can't it be like any small business? Following small business taxation, revenue vs costs, pay the owner dividends and so on.
As far as really small business record keeping, I believe that up to a point it is like that great work of fiction the modern expense account report, with some significant leeway in the 'reporting'.
I certainly would not want to be an item in the General Ledger noting my phone number as the text appointment for 90 minutes every month ...

 

[susi]

so.... sex workers are already required to pay GST/PST....and are eligible under WCB.....

In terms of client confidentiality....

I think this is an important point to raise and probably one of many we will have to address together....

In New Zealand - the health aspect of needing to contact clients was covered by "condom use".....if we promote condom use and make it part of our mechanisms - the ones we are designing for a post decrim world - we are doing our due diligence to ensure health and safety for workers and clients and may not have to keep records of clients info....

I know clients like BBBJ etc.....but these are the places where as a community we are vulnerable in respect to government imposing what they feel is right on us....

In New Zealand there are fines and the burden is on the client....if a client asks for BB (any)service, the client can be fined up to $2000.00....

If we give people info about condom use and risks associated with non condom use, we can then defer to "choice" between adults and will not have to save client info

make sense?
love susie

 

[susi]

How do other countries, ie Holland, do it?
Does Sex Work have to be decriminalized, legalized etc?
Why can't it be like any small business? Following small business taxation, revenue vs costs, pay the owner dividends and so on.
As far as really small business record keeping, I believe that up to a point it is like that great work of fiction the modern expense account report, with some significant leeway in the 'reporting'.
I certainly would not want to be an item in the General Ledger noting my phone number as the text appointment for 90 minutes every month ...

yes, in practical terms, sex work has to be decriminalized in order for us, as a community, to organize whatever appropriate OHS measures we feel are required... other wise we are organized crime....does this make sense?

love susie

PS - the Netherlands have legalization, not decrim...so the comparison we are looking at is related to New Zealand , some states in Australia, Belgium and India...if you can believe that...Indian sex workers have mpre rights than we do in Canada....

 

[masterpoonhunter]

yes, in practical terms, sex work has to be decriminalized in order for us, as a community, to organize whatever appropriate OHS measures we feel are required... other wise we are organized crime....does this make sense?

love susie

I guess so, I just view the whole thing as so friggin archaic in its thinking.
Mind you so many things are so archaic and rooted in real dissonance ...

 

[susi]

If I understood Susi correctly, you are describing what would happen in the case of legalization and not decriminalization.

Legalization might require collecting taxes.

Accurate bookkeeping is already a requirement for everyone who operates a business, whether or not it is regulated by the government (legalized, decriminalized, or as it currently exists).

sex workers are required to pay taxes...as are drug dealers and human traffickers...lol....all are expected to pay tax on their income...remember al capone? nothing has changed and the same applies in Canada...

what he is describing would happen under decriminalization.... also...sex workers qualify for health care plans as well....

love susie

 

[susi]

I guess so, I just view the whole thing as so friggin archaic in its thinking.
Mind you so many things are so archaic and rooted in real dissonance ...

rooted in the Social Gospel Movement which spawned prohibition....Victorian Era morality based BS....lol

120 years later....can we please move on!!

love susie

 

[bigballs55]

Damn it, it's 2023! Mature responsible consenting adults should be free to do as they please. Sex is as natural as breathing with the bonus of being good for one's health.

Just enact good laws to protect all parties engaging in this form of recreation to ensure we play honestly and safely, and then let the party begin!

 

[angry anderson]

This douche fucked things up

 

[kelcaine]

Now that drugs are de criminalized
, and let’s face it all drugs not just soft anymore .

Adding to that the west coast seems to like being at the forefront of decriminalizing things .

I mean , I never thought cocaine would be legal but now you can carry around a small amount w you and nothing will happen .

Does anyone think sex work will finally be de criminalized based on safer conditions for the ladies ?

Or do you think the boys in Ottawa are too worried about the blow back from house wives ?

As Susie was pointing out we need de criminalization of sex work not legalization of sex work, and it’s important to understand the difference between the two. I first had this explained to be by a fellow provider who is currently in Law School, and then did some reading on my own.

This is from an article that does a good job at summing up the difference between the two and why most SW rights groups and SWers are asking for decriminalization:

“Most favour decriminalization. Why? What is so bad about legalization?

Legalization infringes on sex workers’ autonomy. According to the Canadian HIV/AIDs Legal Network, legalization leads to strong regulations which can be “abusive” and overbearing. These regulations enforce strict codes of conduct relating to sexual health, how much a worker can charge, and more. Sex workers such as the anonymous “Molly Smith,”wrote in The New Republic in 2015 that these regulations hamper sex workers’ safety and freedom and create a bureaucratic environment. She personally advocates for decriminalization.

Contrary to legalization, decriminalization involves repealing criminal provisions against sex work. It allows sex workers to retain power, rather than giving it up to a third party. This means that sex workers can decide how long they work, for whom, with whom, where, and for how much. It affords sex workers agency, something criminalization and legalization do not.”

From:https://martlet.ca/decriminalizing-sex-work-is-a-better-solution/

Legalization would take away our autonomy and rights where decriminalization would allow us to keep this and have more rights and equal rights to other professions out there. Decriminalizing SW would be in our best interests as well as for clients. We also would likely see a decrease in the amount of crime that has infiltrated the industry, like those who scam & rob clients, giving them more rights as well (clients). Decriminalizing SW can help cut down on human trafficking as well. Much of what anti SWers say about their argument of SW being legal contributing to human trafficking would be more from legalization and not decriminalization, if you ever come across information these people are spreading.

Here is a great 4 page summary of why and how we should decriminalize SW if anyone is interested in reading this:https://chezstella.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/StellaInfoSheetTheBasic.pdf

I hope this helps people understand the difference between the two, and to support the decriminalization of all SW.